Torture in Iraq

[Darkie]

My grandmother doesnt think it should have been publicized all over the world. Her stance is that they dragged our soldier's dead bodies through the streets, fight against our troops and kill our troops on a daily basis, so in some sense of her mind, they are getting retribution. Not a point I totally agree with, but an interesting one nonetheless.

I agree with your Grandmother... This is the same People who Captured a carravan of Soldiers ealry in the War, and Shot half dead, showed the bodies on National Television, killed 1 or 2 more, and tortured the rest. Of course that only recieved much publication in the US, and Iraqi TV stations, were the actions seemed Celebrated...

Should they be tried as War Criminals? No. Like said, they did nothing to deserve to be called War Crimes.

I wonder what the overall death-toll would be for Middle-eastern civillians who have been killed by the US over the past decade or so and how that compares to Sep 11. I don't care how democratic a country is, having such supreme independant power as the US has is never a good thing for the rest of the world.

I believe it would go something like this:
# of PPL Saddam had Killed > Civillian Casulties > Sept. 11 Victims
or possibly even
# of PPL Saddam had Killed > Sept. 11 Victims > Civillian Casulties

Guess that excuse goes down the tube with the original reason for invading Iraq, those pesky WMD.

I have seen an article stating that WoMD were found in Iraq... Not sure policy of posting links are, So i wont post it.

I think part of the problem was the prisoners were regarded as criminals or terrorists, rather than what they are: enemy soldiers. When the North Vietnamese mistreated and tortured American POWs Americans went ballistic - and rightly so. The rules are the same for us as they are for everyone else.

Of course only Americans were concerned... Few other Nations seemed to care... But hey, if you can try to weaken a World Power anyway possible, they shall try... Its a pattern in History...

 

[gnine]

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[Darkie]

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Killers: Beheading Avenges Prison Abuse


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May 11, 6:32 PM (ET)

By ROBERT H. REID

(AP) This is a image made from a video posted Tuesday May 11, 2004 on an Islamic militant Web site...
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BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - A video posted Tuesday on an al-Qaida-linked Web site showed the beheading of an American civilian in Iraq and said the execution was carried out to avenge abuses of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison.

In a grisly gesture, the executioners held up the man's head for the camera.

The American identified himself on the video as Nick Berg, a 26-year-old Philadelphia native. His body was found near a highway overpass in Baghdad on Saturday, the same day he was beheaded, a U.S. official said.

The video bore the title "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi shown slaughtering an American." It was unclear whether al-Zarqawi - an associate of Osama bin Laden believed behind the wave of suicide bombings in Iraq - was shown in the video or simply ordered the execution. Al-Zarqawi also is sought in the assassination of a U.S. diplomat in Jordan in 2002.


(AP) Supporters of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr chant in the streets of Najaf, Iraq, Tuesday...
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The Bush administration said those who beheaded Berg would be hunted down and brought to justice.

"Our thoughts and prayers are with his family," White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan said. "It shows the true nature of the enemies of freedom. They have no regard for the lives of innocent men, women and children."

Berg was a small-business owner who went to Iraq as an independent businessman to help rebuild communication antennas, his family said Tuesday. Friends and family said he was a "free spirit" who wanted to help others - working in Ghana, in one example - and that his going to Iraq fit with that ideology. They said he supported the Iraqi war and the Bush administration.

U.S. officials had feared the shocking photographs of U.S. soldiers abusing and humiliating Iraqis at Abu Ghraib prison west of Baghdad would endanger the lives of American troops and civilians.

Also, Berg's killing happened amid a climate of anti-Western sentiment, which flared in Iraq after last month's crackdown on Shiite extremists and the three-week Marine siege of Fallujah west of Baghdad. Anger at the United States swelled with the publication of the Abu Ghraib photographs, which continue to stir rage throughout the Arab world.


(AP) Iraqi members of the 'Fallujah Brigade', soldiers of the former Iraqi army conduct security checks...
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In the video, five men wearing headscarves and black ski masks stood over a bound man in an orange jumpsuit similar to prison uniforms.

"My name is Nick Berg. My father's name is Michael. My mother's name is Suzanne," the man, seated in a chair, said on the video. "I have a brother and sister, David and Sara. I live in ... Philadelphia."

The video then cut to Berg sitting on the floor, his hands tied behind his back, as a statement was read in Arabic. Berg sat still during the statement, facing the camera, occasionally raising his shoulders.

After the statement was finished, the men pulled Berg on his side and thrust a large knife to his neck. A scream sounded as the men cut his head off, repeatedly shouting "Allahu Akbar!" - or "God is great."

They then held the head out before the camera.


(AP) Iraqi detainees walk through shower runoff water while being transferred between compounds at the...
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The Bergs, who live the Philadelphia suburb of West Chester, Pa., last heard from their son April 9, the same day insurgents attacked a U.S. convoy west of the capital.

Berg attended Cornell, Drexel, the University of Pennsylvania and the University of Oklahoma, where he got involved in rigging electronics equipment while working for the maintenance department, his father said. He helped set up equipment at the Republican National Convention in Philadelphia in 2000.

While at Cornell, he traveled to Ghana to teach villagers how to make bricks out of minimal material. His father said Berg returned from Ghana emaciated because he gave away most of his food and that the only possessions he had when he returned were the clothes on his back.

Michael Berg said his son saw his trip to Iraq as an adventure that also fit with his desire to help others.

"I would say he was a free spirit, very intelligent," said Nick Fillioe, a sports director at the West Chester YMCA. "He was a real smart guy. He knew a little bit about everything."


(AP) Residents of the Shiite neighborhood Sadr City in Baghdad, Iraq, start to rebuild the headquarters...
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Berg's family said they were informed by the State Department on Monday that he was found dead.

When told about the Web site, Berg's father, brother and sister grasped one another and slowly dropped to the ground in their front yard, where they wept quietly while holding each other.

"I knew he was decapitated before," Michael Berg said. "That manner is preferable to a long and torturous death. But I didn't want it to become public."

The decapitation recalled the kidnapping and videotaped beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in 2002 in Pakistan. Four Islamic militants have been convicted of kidnapping Pearl, but seven suspects - including those who allegedly slit his throat - remain at large.

Last month, Iraqi militants videotaped the killing of Italian hostage Fabrizio Quattrocchi, but the Arab TV network Al-Jazeera refused to air it because it was too graphic.


(AP) Iraqi gunmen, loyal to radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, show their guns in the center of...
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In the video of Berg, the executioners said they had tried to trade him for prisoners at Abu Ghraib.

"For the mothers and wives of American soldiers, we tell you that we offered the U.S. administration to exchange this hostage for some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib and they refused," one of the men read from a statement.

"So we tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins ... slaughtered in this way."

Seven soldiers from the 372nd Military Police Company face charges in the mistreatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib in a scandal that has sparked worldwide outrage. One of those soldiers faces a court-martial in Baghdad next week, the first to go to trial.

The American administrator of Iraq, L. Paul Bremer, said Tuesday that the soldiers accused of abuses would be brought to justice.

"I find the behavior of these American soldiers completely unacceptable and outrageous," Bremer told Associated Press Television News. "I share the outrage of the Iraqi people and the people of the world as to what these guys did."

April 9, when Berg last made contact with his family, also was the day that seven American contractors working for a subsidiary of Halliburton Corp. and two military men disappeared after their supply convoy was attacked on the outskirts of Baghdad.

Four of the Halliburton workers and one of the military men have since been confirmed dead. Halliburton worker Thomas Hamill escaped his captors May 2 and returned home to Mississippi on Saturday. The two other Halliburton workers and the other soldier remain missing.

Two soldiers also vanished April 9. One was later found dead and the other, Pfc. Keith M. Maupin of Batavia, Ohio, was taken captive and remains missing.

In other developments Tuesday:

- The head of Iraq's war-crimes tribunal said the United States has pledged to hand over Saddam Hussein and about 100 other suspects to Iraqi authorities before July 1 if Iraq is ready to take them into custody. U.S. officials denied any decision had been reached.

- Iraqi leaders in Najaf said radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr has agreed to end his violent standoff with the U.S.-led coalition if the Americans defer murder charges against him until a permanent constitution is adopted next year and an elected government takes office.

- A Russian energy company worker was confirmed dead and two others abducted Monday when gunmen fired on their car south of Baghdad, Russian officials said.

- A homemade bomb exploded in a crowded market in the northern city of Kirkuk, killing four Iraqis and wounding 23, a security official said.

---

Associated Press reporter Jason Straziuso contributed to this story from West Chester, Pa.

 

[Blissman]

Somewhere in the news I had read that the Terrorists are now learning how to make Sarin nerve gas.

 

[Fiendishjester]

I agree with your Grandmother... This is the same People who Captured a carravan of Soldiers ealry in the War, and Shot half dead, showed the bodies on National Television, killed 1 or 2 more, and tortured the rest. Of course that only recieved much publication in the US, and Iraqi TV stations, were the actions seemed Celebrated...

Should they be tried as War Criminals? No. Like said, they did nothing to deserve to be called War Crimes.

I believe it would go something like this:
# of PPL Saddam had Killed > Civillian Casulties > Sept. 11 Victims
or possibly even
# of PPL Saddam had Killed > Sept. 11 Victims > Civillian Casulties

What they did aren't war crimes? They are listed as so in several international treaties. The only problem is that the U.S. feels no regard for any kind of rules in war, and so didn't sign any of them so legally they don't apply. The hypocrisy here is found in the fact that we don't sign any treaties for war rules, then we complain about terrorist attacks (which are tactics of war.) Regardless of the legal situation, on an ethical level, what our soldiers did was disgusting.

Secondly, I would hardly classify the situation as any kind of revenge. What we did do was to sink down to the level of the Iraqi extremists instead of setting a better example and showing ourselves to be the "superior nation", and that is childish and immature on our part. Then again, I would not expect much else at this point. And revenge for what? For 9/11? To this date there has been no real, substantial evidence proving Saddam or the Iraqis to have any links to the 9/11 attacks. All the evidence presented by the government thus far has been refuted many times. In any case, even if they were involved in it, then by your logic, the 9/11 attacks would be justified, because they would be revenge for the many years we messed up Iraq and the rest of the Middle East.

You keep talking about Saddam killing people, and I assume you are referring to the Kurds. Well, guess what, it was America that fully funded and instructed Saddam to commit his genocide on the Kurds. This was during the time when Saddam was America's puppet, and the Kurds were threatening his rule (and therefore American hegemony in Iraq.) If you get around to doing any research on this, you will find that this is true. We are to blame just as much as Saddam is.

Finally, civilian casualties in Iraq alone actually outnumber the amount of deaths caused by the 9/11 attacks. Add that number to the amount in Afghanistan, and we have quite a large inequality on our hands.

 

[transientlife]

Interesting post, Fiendish. I see many of your points.
In application of Darkie's and my grandmother's "these being the same people that killed our soldiers..." well maybe I'm splitting hairs, but no, IMO, they aren't the same people necessarily. To say this would also allow for the Iraqis who seek revenge to go ahead and kill EVERY US soldier for what those few dastardly ones did -and I'm sure we all realize that only a chosen few could have managed that disgusting act. Now if it were the exact same soldiers (not just a service generalization) then I can see the logic behind that, but would still ask, what would it truly accomplish but to perpetuate more hatred and illwill? For all we know those captured soldiers could have been forced to serve and do not abide by the same codes as those who drug the soldier's bodies through the streets. On a certain level, I wouldn't blame them if they'd adopt those codes after this whole ordeal.
And for as much as it's worth, the woman soldier in those pictures is now claiming her superior officers forced her to do it. I'm sorry, but when it comes to something as outrightly disgusting as that...I don't care who's my superior officer- I wouldn't do it. A night in military jail, a demotion, a discharge...all of that is not worth sacrificing a sense of what is right for the sake of military superiority.

 

[Nathan David]

This is the same People who Captured a carravan of Soldiers ealry in the War, and Shot half dead, showed the bodies on National Television, killed 1 or 2 more, and tortured the rest.

This is the first I've heard of this incident. Got a link to a news story?

 

[Nathan David]

I believe it would go something like this:
# of PPL Saddam had Killed > Civillian Casulties > Sept. 11 Victims
or possibly even
# of PPL Saddam had Killed > Sept. 11 Victims > Civillian Casulties

What do Sept. 11 Victims have to do with this? Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

I have seen an article stating that WoMD were found in Iraq... Not sure policy of posting links are, So i wont post it.

If you have a link please post it, because that would be huge news. So far they have found nothing.

 

[Jet Black]

Somewhere in the news I had read that the Terrorists are now learning how to make Sarin nerve gas.

if they didn't know, I would be suprised. It is not that hard.

 

[mojorising]

The U.S. has recently been accused of committing torture to Iraqi's. Should those involved be tried as war criminals?

I have a friend who has just gone to Washington DC to protest these the recent upsurge in the violent treatment of foreign soldiers. Americans go wild when one of our soldiers is hurt in any way, and we turn around and increase the level of utter dehumanization. Did you see where one of our soldiers was beheaded, in retaliation for the torture of Iraqi"s. This goes against the Geneva convention rules on human rights, and these people are ciminals and should be punished!
mojo

 

[Nathan David]

Here's what former POW Shoshana Johnson had to say about this (from the NY Journal News):

Ex-POW says she fared better than jailed Iraqis

Shoshana Johnson said her treatment at the hands of her Iraqi captors was better than the humiliation and abuse shown being committed by the U.S. service members in recent pictures.

"It really hurts to think that our soldiers would do something like this," Johnson said yesterday during an event to create teddy bears for children of service members. "I was treated very humanely and of course, as Americans, we all assume that the same is done for them. I hope everybody realizes that most soldiers are not like this."

Pfc. Johnson was taken prisoner at the same time as Pfc. Jessica Lynch.

 

[Nathan David]

Somewhere in the news I had read that the Terrorists are now learning how to make Sarin nerve gas.

Which terrorists? Al Qaeda? Hizbollah? Hamas? ETA? There is no one single terrorist group operating in the world, and not all of them are hostile to the US.

And what do any of them have to do with Iraq?

 

[Blissman]

Which terrorists? Al Qaeda? Hizbollah? Hamas? ETA? There is no one single terrorist group operating in the world, and not all of them are hostile to the US.

And what do any of them have to do with Iraq?

It was Al Queda. I am not claiming that suddenly there are terrorist groups that hate us. What had been something to scare people may now be a WMD. Extreeme hate is now God, Air, Water, and Food to some people whom may have perhaps have been willing to listen to us. We are evil in the eyes of the world.
If I were living in the middle east, I would hate us too. Things too horrible to be horrible had happened happened by our own hands. Of course, 'our', and 'us', does not mean every American. Most people are equally replused and sickened at the same thing, for the very same reason. The morality that judges those as horrors is human.

Hatred doesn't work that way. To the hater it's all All America, American's, and everything American.

 

[Nathan David]

It was Al Queda.

Thanks for clarifying. I'm really sick of people saying "the terrorists" as if there were just one enemy and lumping all our enemies in together as if they could all be fought at the same time in the same way. That was one of the biggest mistakes Bush made about Iraq: Saddam and Al Qaeda were both our enemies, but they also hated each other.

 

[transientlife]

Didn't Bush, in some way, utilize 9/11 to get Saddam -- kind of like "the next big threat" when the whole search for bin Laden was starting to stall? Kind of like saying "Don't pay attention to this possible failure here, the bigger problem is here (meaning Saddam) now". Kind of like magic, misdirection and shift in focus.

 

[Fiendishjester]

Didn't Bush, in some way, utilize 9/11 to get Saddam -- kind of like "the next big threat" when the whole search for bin Laden was starting to stall? Kind of like saying "Don't pay attention to this possible failure here, the bigger problem is here (meaning Saddam) now". Kind of like magic, misdirection and shift in focus.

Yeah, I definitely agree with you here. It wasn't just about Bin Laden, either. Notice that right when our economy starts dramatically tanking (and the American populace begins to notice) Bush throws the Iraq situation out there and begins to stress its importance. He constantly uses the "smoke and mirrors" tactic to keep the American people like blind sheep.

 

[Darkie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by: Darkie

This is the same People who Captured a carravan of Soldiers ealry in the War, and Shot half dead, showed the bodies on National Television, killed 1 or 2 more, and tortured the rest.

This is the first I've heard of this incident. Got a link to a news story?

This happened early in the year... dont got the time to look for a link...
Google "Jessica Lynch" That should give some stuff about it

Quote:

Originally Posted by: Darkie

I believe it would go something like this:
# of PPL Saddam had Killed > Civillian Casulties > Sept. 11 Victims
or possibly even
# of PPL Saddam had Killed > Sept. 11 Victims > Civillian Casulties

What do Sept. 11 Victims have to do with this? Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

I was just replyin to the post I quoted as he/she mentioned 9/11.

Quote:

Originally Posted by: Darkie

I have seen an article stating that WoMD were found in Iraq... Not sure policy of posting links are, So i wont post it.

If you have a link please post it, because that would be huge news. So far they have found nothing.

Its from:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=38213
This is a link I got from a friend and I find BBC and other news stations much more reliable so I cant say how reliable this one is. I found it to be very skeptical after getting time to read it through

Secondly, I would hardly classify the situation as any kind of revenge. What we did do was to sink down to the level of the Iraqi extremists instead of setting a better example and showing ourselves to be the "superior nation", and that is childish and immature on our part. Then again, I would not expect much else at this point. And revenge for what? For 9/11? To this date there has been no real, substantial evidence proving Saddam or the Iraqis to have any links to the 9/11 attacks. All the evidence presented by the government thus far has been refuted many times. In any case, even if they were involved in it, then by your logic, the 9/11 attacks would be justified, because they would be revenge for the many years we messed up Iraq and the rest of the Middle East.

I dont think ive said anything about revenge yet on this thread...

What they did aren't war crimes? They are listed as so in several international treaties. The only problem is that the U.S. feels no regard for any kind of rules in war, and so didn't sign any of them so legally they don't apply. The hypocrisy here is found in the fact that we don't sign any treaties for war rules, then we complain about terrorist attacks (which are tactics of war.) Regardless of the legal situation, on an ethical level, what our soldiers did was disgusting.

Terrorist are tatics of war... I did not know a single person could declare war on a nation... yet, if they did, then is that not reason enough to counterattack... That would basically be enough reason to attack other nations then. "They committed a terrorist attack in our country. We take that as a declaration of war." Id think then there would be many more wars.
If we signed no treaties... then they aren't war crimes recognized by our nation...
Out of the photos seen by public... other than humilation and possible pyscho. toture... nothing else has really been seen... (Both those tatics are commonly used by a majority of all nations)
Most of what else that has been heard is that from newspapers and news stations... and those are always right (dewey beat truman right)
On the ethical level, I see what our soldiers (A small group of them so far) did is no worse what is done by other nations to civilians and POWs. Digusting... yes... War crimes... no.

In application of Darkie's and my grandmother's "these being the same people that killed our soldiers..." well maybe I'm splitting hairs, but no, IMO, they aren't the same people necessarily. To say this would also allow for the Iraqis who seek revenge to go ahead and kill EVERY US soldier for what those few dastardly ones did -and I'm sure we all realize that only a chosen few could have managed that disgusting act.

They seem to have started doing that by killing an innocent civilian...

Yeah, I definitely agree with you here. It wasn't just about Bin Laden, either. Notice that right when our economy starts dramatically tanking (and the American populace begins to notice) Bush throws the Iraq situation out there and begins to stress its importance. He constantly uses the "smoke and mirrors" tactic to keep the American people like blind sheep.

I dont think he tries to keep them like blind sheep... The economy has been bad since Bush has been in office... It was bad when Clinton was in Office... heck... his scandal covered the last bit of his presidency... lets not notice the economy then as scandals are much better to read...


Also, what happened to the British photos... Right when they came out, they were deemed to be faked... no need of proof right off the bat, 'cept Britain isnt U.S.... didnt follow the story much after that though...

Also, there was one Iraqi i believe, who was quoted saying that the Americans would use the actions of a few Iraqis who commited the beheading, as a smoke screen to the abuse in prison... It was an AOL article... That just particullary upset me... the action of a few Iraqis when the photos are the action of a few U.S. Soldiers...

 

[LilChrist]

Something about the pictures you see...they don't tell you the whole story. Those Iraqi prisoners were the worst ones there. Also, the abuse was only phsycological, not physical, mostly, minus the supposed sexual harrasment. About the economy being bad since Bush took office, that was because of what Clinton did, and now Bush is gradually healing a messed up economy.

 

[transientlife]

They were the worst ones there, but did they still deserve to be tortured (whether psychologically or physically) as they were? I'm sorry, but if the US professes to be so much for human rights, we need to practice what we preach, regardless of if it is with Iraqi civilians or Iraqi POWs.
Just my 2cents

 

[Sola Scriptura]

Notice that right when our economy starts dramatically tanking (and the American populace begins to notice) Bush throws the Iraq situation out there and begins to stress its importance. He constantly uses the "smoke and mirrors" tactic to keep the American people like blind sheep.

ooooh Conspiracies