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(Torah-Observant Jews Only) Discussion

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Jonaitis, Jan 28, 2019.

  1. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Steven

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    I wanted to have a serious dialogue about the Hebrew Scriptures, and particularly the person of Jesus. I am willing to consider the possibility that Jesus may have not been who he said he was, if you are willing to consider the possibility that he was who he said he was.

    I'm aware that Jews don't desire to proselytize, and I am not that interested in converting. I think we can both agree that Messianic "Judaism" has some problems on either side. But, I personally do desire to evangelize and convert, as is the duty of every Christian, whether the individual is Jew or Gentile.

    I am not Jewish, I have no relatives or distant ancestors who were Jewish, and I have little grasp of Judaism. I have not read the Talmud or any other written work that may exist in the various branches of Judaism. However, I don't mind that such works can be quoted, referenced, or relied upon from your side of the argument. I do, however, want the Hebrew Scriptures to be the main focus in our discussion, for G-d's glory and our benefit. It may be perhaps good to sharpen my understanding of Judaism through this thread, and I prayerfully hope that I communicate what I believe is the truth the way it should be communicated and explained.

    May G-d, the Most High, direct our thoughts and meditations to what is true in him, and that his truth may prevail.

    I really don't know how many will respond, and I really don't know how successful this thread will be, but I pray G-d would carry it forward.

    Let me begin with a question:

    What is the covenant relationship between G-d and Israel? I mean, there are specific verses that explains this, but can you in your own words explain it to me?
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
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  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Ever since I first read it, always it has been true with no question at all :

    Whoever blesses Israel Yahweh blesses;
    whoever seeks any harm to Israel Yahweh curses.

    (Individuals and Nations (as shown via the tsunami, and the twin towers ; on some websites) )
     
  3. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Steven

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    Bless or punish them in what way?
     
  4. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    For instance in these ways:

    Leviticus 26:14-39: “But if you will not listen to Me and will not perform all of these commandments, if you consider My decrees loathsome, and if your being reject My ordinances, so as not to perform all My commandments, so that you annul My covenant, then I will do the same to you; I will assign upon you panic, swelling lesions, and burning fever, which causes eyes to long and souls to suffer; you will sow your seeds in vain, for your enemies will eat it. I will turn My attention against you, you will be struck down before your enemies; those who hate you will subjugate you, you will flee with no one pursuing you.

    If despite this, you do not heed me, then I shall punish you further, seven ways for your sins. I will break the pride of your might; I will make your heaven like iron and your land like copper. Your strength will be spend in vain; your land will not give its produce, and the trees of the land will not give its fruit.

    If you behave casually with Me and refuse to heed Me, then I shall lay a further blow upon you; seven ways, like your sins. I will incite the wildlife of the field against you and it will leave you bereft of your children, decimate your livestock, and diminish you; and your roads will become desolate.

    If despite these you will not be chastised towards Me, and you behave casually with Me, then I too, will behave toward you with casualness; and I will strike you, even I, seven ways for your sins. I will bring upon you a sword, avenging the vengeance of a covenant, you will be gathered into your cities; then I will bring pestilence among you and you will be delivered into the hand of your enemy. When I break you the staff of bread, ten woman will bake your bread in one oven, and they will bring back your bread by weight; you will eat and not be sated.

    If despite this you will not heed Me, and you behave toward Me with casualness, I will behave toward you with a fury of casualness; I will chastise you, even I, seven ways for your sins. You will eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters you will eat. I will destroy your lofty buildings and decimate your sun-idols, I will cast your carcasses upon the carcasses of your idols, and My Spirit will reject you. I will lay your cities in ruin and I will make your sanctuaries desolate; I will not savor your satisfying aromas. I will make the land desolate; and your foes who dwell upon it will be desolate. And you, I will scatter you among the nations, I will unsheathe the sword after you; your land will be desolate and your cities will be a ruin. . The survivors among you; I will bring weakness into their hearts in the land of their foes. The sound of a rustling leave will pursue them, they will flee as one flees the sword, and they will fall, but without a pursuer. They will stumble over one another as in flight from the sword, but there is no pursuer; you will not have the power to withstand your foes. You will become lost among the nations, the land of your foes will devour you. Because of their iniquity, your remnant will disintegrate in the land of your foes; and because the iniquities of there forefathers are with them as well, they will disintegrate.”

    Deuteronomy 28:15-68: “But it will be that if you do not hearken to the voice of the Lord your G.d, to observe, to perform all His commandments and all his decrees that I command you today, then all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: Accursed will you be in the city, and accursed will you be in the field. Accursed will be your fruit basket and your kneading bowl. Accursed will be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, the offspring of your cattle and the flocks of your sheep and goats. Accursed will you be when you go in and accursed will you be when you go out. The Lord will send in your midst attrition, confusion, and worry, in your every undertaking that you will do, until you are destroyed and until you are quickly annihilated, because of the evil of your deeds, for having forsaken Me. The Lord will attach the plague to you, until it consumes you from upon the ground to which you are coming, to possess it. The Lord will strike you with swelling lesions, with fever, with burning heat, with thirst and with sword; and with wind blasts and with withering, and they will pursue you until destruction. Your heavens over your head will be copper and the land beneath you will be iron. The Lord will make the rain of your land dust and dirt; from heaven it will descend upon you until you are destroyed. The Lord will cause you to be struck down before your enemies; on one road you will go out against him, but on seven roads you will flee before him; and you will be a cause of terror to all the kingdoms of the earth. Your carcass will be food for every bird of the sky and for every beast of the field and nothing will frighten them. The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with hemorrhoids, with wet and dry boils, of which you can not be cured. The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness, and with confounding of the heart. You will grope at noontime as a blind man gropes in the darkness, but you will not succeed on your way; you will be only cheated and robbed all the days, and there will be no savior. You will betroth a woman, but another man will lay with her; you will built a house, but you will not dwell in it; you will plant a vineyard, but you will not redeem it. Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will not eat from it; your donkey will be robbed from before you, but it will not return to you; your flocks will be given to your enemies, and you will have no savior. Your sons and daughters will be given to another people, and your eyes will see and pine in vain for them all day long, but your hand will be powerless. A nation unknown to you will devour the fruit of your ground and all your labor, and you will be cheated and downtrodden all the days. You will go mad from the sight of your eye that you will see. The Lord will strike you with a foul boil, on the knees and the legs, that cannot be cured, from the sole of your foot to your crown. The Lord will lead you and your king whom you will set up over yourself to a nation that you never knew, neither you nor your forefathers, and there you will work for the gods of others, of wood and stone. You will be a source of astonishment, a parable, and a conversation piece, among all the peoples where the Lord will lead you. You will take abundant seed out to the field, but you will harvest little, for the locusts will devour it. You will plant vineyards and work them, but you will not drink and gather in, for the worm will eat it. You will have olive trees throughout your boundaries, but you will not anoint with oil, for your olives will drop. You will bear sons and daughters, but they will not be yours, for they will go into captivity. All your trees and the fruits of your ground, the chirping locust will impoverish. The stranger who is among you will rise higher and higher, while you will descent lower and lower. He will lend to you, but you will not lend to him; he will be a head, but you will be a tail.

    All these curses will come upon you and pursue you and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you will not have listened to the voice of the Lord your G.d, to observe all His commandments and decrees that He commanded you.

    They will be a sign and a wonder in you and your offspring forever, because you did not serve the Lord your G.d amid gladness and goodness of heart, when everything was abundant. So you will serve your enemies that the Lord will send against you in hunger and in thirst, in nakedness and without anything, and He will put an iron yoke on your neck, until He destroys you. The Lord will carry against you a nation from afar, from the end of the earth, as an eagle will swoop, a nation whose language you will not understand, a brazen nation that will not be respectful to the old nor gracious to the young. It will devour the fruit of your animals, and the fruit of your ground, until you are destroyed; it will not leave you grain, wine, or oil, offspring of your cattle or flocks of your sheep and goats, until it causes you to perish. It will besiege you in all your cities, until the collapse of your high and fortified walls in which you trusted throughout your land; it will besiege you in all your cities, in all your land which the Lord your G.d has given you. You will eat the fruit of your womb, the flesh of your sons and daughters, which the Lord your G.d had given you; in the in the siege and distress that your enemies will distress you. The man among you who is tender and very delicate will turn selfish against his brother and the wife of his bosom, and against the remaining children that he has let survive, not to give even one of them of the flesh of his children that he will eat, not leaving anything for him, in the siege and distress that your enemy will distress you in all your cities. The tender and delicate woman among you, who had never tried to set the sole of her foot on the ground, because of delicacy and tenderness, will turn selfish against the husband of her bosom, and against her son and daughter, against the after birth that emerges from between her legs, and against the children that she will bear; for she will eat them in secret for lack of anything, in the siege and distress that your enemies will distress you in your cities.

    If you will not be careful to perform the words of this Torah that are written in this Book, to fear this honored and awesome Name; Y-H-W-H your G.d, then The Lord will make extra ordinary your blows and the blows of your offspring; great and faithful blows, and evil and faithful illnesses. He will bring back upon you all the sufferings of Egypt, of which you were terrified, and they will cleave to you. Even any illness and every blow that is not written in this Book of Torah, the Lord will bring upon you, until you are destroyed. You will be left few in number, instead having been like the stars of heaven in abundance, for you will not have hearkened to the voice of the Lord your G.d. And it will be that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to benefit you and multiply you, so the Lord will cause them to rejoice over you to make you perish and destroy you; and you will be torn from the ground to which you come to posses it. The Lord will scatter you among all the peoples, from the end of the earth to the end of the earth, and there you will work for the gods of others whom you did not know, you or your forefathers, of wood and stone. And among those nations you will not be tranquil, there will be no rest fore the sole of your foot; there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, longing of eyes, and suffering of soul. Your life will hang in the balance, and you will be frightened night and day, and you will not be sure of your livelihood. In the morning you will say: “Who can give back last night!” And in the evening you will say: “Who can give back this morning!” – because of the fright of your heart that you will fear and the sight of your eyes that you will see. The Lord will return you to Egypt in ships, on the road of which I said to you: “You shall never again see it!” And there you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as slaves and maidservants; but there will be no buyer. These are the words of the covenant that the Lord commanded Moses to seal with the Children of Israel in the land of Moab,
     
  5. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Steven

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    These passages are terrifying and edifying.

    If I am understanding right, help me out here, G-d promised Abraham three things primarily: a land (Gen. 15:18-21), a people (Gen. 12:2), and kings (Gen. 17:6); as well as being their G-d, and they his people (Gen. 17:7). In other words, Israel would inherit the land, grow into an innumerable people ruled by their own kings, as G-d's chosen nation? There may be more things, but this is just a brief overview of the covenant made with Abraham.

    Now, in light of the passages you quoted, it appears that the covenant made through Moses was attached and added to Abraham's covenant in such a way that it conditioned the enjoyment of these blessings. Is this correct? The Mosaic law seemed to control tenure in the land, the boundaries of the nation, and the regulation of the throne as well. Would this mean that the Covenant of Abraham and the Covenant of Moses are the basis of G-d's relationship with Israel?

    By the way, I have looked at the site linked in your signature. You have some strong arguments, I am willing to address them in the future if G-d permits. At the moment, I want to focus at the main picture of things, i.e. the covenant framework in the Holy Scriptures.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019
  6. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    Yes, the Covenant of Abraham and the Covenant of Moses are the basis of G-d's relationship with Israel.
     
  7. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Steven

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    In your view, did I properly understand each covenant? If not, please correct or explain.
     
  8. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    I think the covenant with Abraham is unconditional. The covenant with Israel is also unconditional in the sense that Israel is God's chosen people.

    That doesn't change the fact that when Israel breaks the covenant, that get horribly punished, kicked out the land, etc. But they are still God's people:

    G.d says clearly in the Holy Torah that He will never break his covenant with the Jewish people, even not when they stray away from Him. When the Jews go astray G.d will punish them. (Leviticus 26:14-17) And if they then still don't listen, G.d will punish them seven times harder. (idem:18-22) And if they then still don't listen, G.d will punish them another seven times harder. (idem:23-24) And if they then still refuse to turn back to G.d, He will punish them another seven times harder. (idem:27-28) But despite all this, G.d will not break His covenant with the Jewish people: Leviticus 26:44-45; "And yet for all that, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them: For I am Y-H-W-H their G.d. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their G.d: I am Y-H-W-H."

    "Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying: The two families that the LORD hath chosen, He has even cast them of? Thus they have despised My people, that they should no more be a nation before them. Thus saith the LORD: If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: for I will cause their captivety to return and have mercy on them." Jeremiah 33:24-26
     
  9. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Steven

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    So the covenant with Abraham and his offspring is unconditional, but what about the promises therein? You noted that the covenant through Moses was added and attached to the covenant with Abraham in such a way that it conditioned the enjoyments of his blessings. For an example, they were able to be exiled from the land for disobedience. Sure, they were still God's chosen people as a nation, but the enjoyments of those blessings were really conditional. Is this correct?
     
  10. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    The blessings are only received when the law is obeyed.

    When the law is not obeyed, the curses take effect.
     
  11. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Steven

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    We agree.

    In your own words, what is the Davidic Covenant about?
     
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