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Torah debates

Zeek

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no, stick around, i like chatting with ya!:thumbsup::wave:

How can I refuse such a kind request. :)

Just a little frustrating when straight-forward questions are at best avoided at worst ignored, and many people seem to have made up their minds that anything that is vaguely Messianic must mean people are trying to impose works on you...Messianic is just the Jewish word for Christian... you could call these Forums, Messianic Forums from a language point of view, but because of everything associated with the Messianic movement, one gets tarred with a very broad brush.,...bit like people who think of Christians associating them with the Crusades and the Inquisition.

Anyway I will get back into the fray and see what gives.
 
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Frogster

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Okay, let's look at that verse.

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Nothing in that changed the meaning of " all " in the next verse.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and

is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

In your statement you said they were never given the torah.
What are you thinkin'? Paul went around tearing those pages outta their books?
He did not have a phobia against the law.
You should pay a little more attention to Galatians.
The law did not void the covenant nor was it against it.



17 And this I say , that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in

Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot

disannul
, that it should make the promise of none effect .

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid


Maybe yer beginnin' to recognize the Spirit when you hear it.;)

this does not disprove my point, Paul said faith, and salvation, he did not stress law, did he? Lets not forget 1 Timothy, where he did not want the law teachers, coming to epehsus, he said the law is NOT for the just in 1 Tim 1,the same ephesus where Timothy was, where he said the jewish law was abolished in 2:15. So lets go by what he told Timothy elsewhere also.


Ok, lets look at the emphasis here>>;) We know faith righteousness is of Paul, not works. yes?

2 Tim 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,






You do know Paul said his gospel was in the OT all along, don't you, in Rom 1:2 the same writings as 2 Tim 3:15, and chapter 16, etc? You do know he used Abraham, the man of FAITH righteousness, out of genesis, and his gospel of Gal; 3:8, quoting gen 12:3?
 
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Frogster

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LittleLambofJesus

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So it seems there is always a good Torah vs. Torahlessness debate going on in this section (including the Sabbath debate as well). I've seen both sides of the battleground and sympathize towards the logic of both. But logic wont answer the ever present debate of whether or not Torah (any part, all parts, some parts) is for today. So just how important to you is this matter personally? Not tearing anyone down, just getting a feel for the why behind the big debate.
I accept everything in the Torah as long as Jesus didn't address it and give us the true interpretation from god.
Jesus said he didn't come to abolish the law which shows that it still applies.
:D

That is what I say.









.
 
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Frogster

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How can I refuse such a kind request. :)

Just a little frustrating when straight-forward questions are at best avoided at worst ignored, and many people seem to have made up their minds that anything that is vaguely Messianic must mean people are trying to impose works on you...Messianic is just the Jewish word for Christian... you could call these Forums, Messianic Forums from a language point of view, but because of everything associated with the Messianic movement, one gets tarred with a very broad brush.,...bit like people who think of Christians associating them with the Crusades and the Inquisition.

Anyway I will get back into the fray and see what gives.

Thanks bro, much appreciated.:)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Of course Paul promoted the law. The law of love. The law of love promotes all of Gods ways.
Then why the need to keep debating the Law/Torah on GT?





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bugkiller

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You talkin' bout the same Spirit that said breakin' these commandments would keep you outta the kingdom?
Which ones are you talking about? Where does the Scripture say we must first obey the law to possess salvation?
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust .
Yeah I wish more people would take that passage to heart and apply it.
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived : neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

For this ye know , that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
And by what righteousness do we inherit thekingdom of God? The righteousness that comes by the law or the righteousness God provides as a free gift that is not our own?
Not just those who are of the world, but a brother also:


9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company , if any man

that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat .

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth . Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Lotta torah preachin' goin' on here for nobody to have been given it.:thumbsup:
Looks like to a large serving of condemnation is being served up. The above is not a list of thou shalt nots but a list of sin we are not to fellowship with and partake of. It is not a serving of the law.

But keep trying.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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How can I refuse such a kind request. :)

Just a little frustrating when straight-forward questions are at best avoided at worst ignored, and many people seem to have made up their minds that anything that is vaguely Messianic must mean people are trying to impose works on you...Messianic is just the Jewish word for Christian... you could call these Forums, Messianic Forums from a language point of view, but because of everything associated with the Messianic movement, one gets tarred with a very broad brush.,...bit like people who think of Christians associating them with the Crusades and the Inquisition.

Anyway I will get back into the fray and see what gives.
Nice to see that you have joined the fustration club. Welcome to our group.

There are just a few problems with the general Messianic group as you note. They just like Christians they will not associate with shoot themselves in the foot.

I do have to ask why reinvent the wheel? The net outcome is worthless.

I very rarely ever hear any non Christian mentioning the Crusades and Inquisition. Those who do are using it as a reason to not believe and brand all Christians as hypocrites. They take away the focus on Jesus to bow out.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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6 posts in a row.

You must impress yourself.
WOW!!!! is that all he got? Frogster you better get with the program. We need more posts in a row.:p;):p:D^_^

Where is the rule (social or otherwise) one must wait for others to post before responding to another post?

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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There is a distinction between the Torah of Moses and the Torah of Jesus..I have tried to express it as clearly as I can, but it keeps getting ignored.
A few of us here also make that distinction. We are ignored and given false definitions to prove we are wrong. What can one do?

bugkiller
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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bugkiller

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No. From the Law-keeper point of view, every dot and dash of the Law is eternal, and anyone denying it is denying the God Who gave it.

From my point of view, Paul taught that law-keeping is useless, actually engenders the sin it purports to prohibit, and in terms of salvation severs us from Christ.
:amen::amen::amen:

bugkiller
 
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Zeek

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Originally Posted by Zazal
There is a distinction between the Torah of Moses and the Torah of Jesus..I have tried to express it as clearly as I can, but it keeps getting ignored.
A few of us here also make that distinction. We are ignored and given false definitions to prove we are wrong. What can one do?

bugkiller

That's all I was seeking, a small confirmation that demonstrates the misconceptions many people have about what does and does not constitute the LAW.

I have also been trying to show that as Believers we are free in Messiah, but our liberty does not extend to being without law, we are not lawless and we do not rejoice in lawlesness, ergo sum we are subject to law....not the Mosaic Law, but the Law of liberty, the Law of Christ, within which are clear references to some of the elements of Mosaic Law because they were based on eternal laws...such as loving G-d and loving your neighbour.

On this basis (if it is established and understood) we can correctly say that The Torah of Moses was fulfilled in Jesus, but that the Torah/teaching of Jesus continues in its place...

I would also suggest that the Mosaic Law has not been completely disposed of, because it still has the power to demonstrate to a Jew the nature of the Messiah he eagerly looks for.

Let me illustrate: A non-believing Jewish friend of mine was speaking to a Christian Believer and during the conversation the Jewish man asked if Jesus was mentioned or referred to in the Old Testament...my friend showed him Isaiah 53, he was quite literally amazed and agreed it could be talking of no one else but Jesus....he hadn't been taught or shown differently through being exposed to modern Judaism, he took it at face value. The point being in Isaiah and the prophets there are numerous places that make a direct reference to the Messiah...all these men were subject to Mosaic Law, but spoke about where the Law was leading...its culmination, its drop off point its destination was at Messiah station.
 
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E

Eliwho

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That's all I was seeking, a small confirmation that demonstrates the misconceptions many people have about what does and does not constitute the LAW.

I have also been trying to show that as Believers we are free in Messiah, but our liberty does not extend to being without law, we are not lawless and we do not rejoice in lawlesness, ergo sum we are subject to law....not the Mosaic Law, but the Law of liberty, the Law of Christ, within which are clear references to some of the elements of Mosaic Law because they were based on eternal laws...such as loving G-d and loving your neighbour.

On this basis (if it is established and understood) we can correctly say that The Torah of Moses was fulfilled in Jesus, but that the Torah/teaching of Jesus continues in its place...

I would also suggest that the Mosaic Law has not been completely disposed of, because it still has the power to demonstrate to a Jew the nature of the Messiah he eagerly looks for.

Let me illustrate: A non-believing Jewish friend of mine was speaking to a Christian Believer and during the conversation the Jewish man asked if Jesus was mentioned or referred to in the Old Testament...my friend showed him Isaiah 53, he was quite literally amazed and agreed it could be talking of no one else but Jesus....he hadn't been taught or shown differently through being exposed to modern Judaism, he took it at face value. The point being in Isaiah and the prophets there are numerous places that make a direct reference to the Messiah...all these men were subject to Mosaic Law, but spoke about where the Law was leading...its culmination, its drop off point its destination was at Messiah station.

:thumbsup: No other foundation can be laid but Christ.
Building on that foundation, however, must be done lawfully.
 
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