Torah debates

[Frogster]

There IS a moral component to eating.

taint..

1 cor 8:8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do

 

[Frogster]

There is a distinction between the Torah of Moses and the Torah of Jesus..I have tried to express it as clearly as I can, but it keeps getting ignored.

Torah simply means 'instruction'...and when we read 'Law' in the New Testament, it confises the issue and no real distinction is made at times...which is why the context usually gives the clue to what is being expressed...for example in Acts 15 we see verse 5 saying two distinct things that people often overlook....circumcision plus the torah of Moses...one is an act of Covenant, the other subjection to a set of Laws.

I won't rabbit on, but check it out and see if you can begin to get a handle of what all the fuss is about, and why it is vital that Believers understand the Law of Moses is not what justifies us.

51:1 is clear, keep the law, the council said no, paul went there to ward off snipping, because of those of 15:1, that came to ruin everything in Antioch, snipping meant?????



5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

 

[Frogster]

.

 

[Frogster]

Then Paul was severed. He kept the Law.



He participated in the Festivals (Acts 18 20-22)

He took a Nazirite vow (Act 18:18-19)

He helped in the Nazirite vow of others (Acts 21:20-26)

He brought offerings to the Temple (Acts 24:17-18)

dude, he did not go to jerusalem for 17 years, there was no partaking all that time.

acts 21, james was fearing the thousands, they thought paul was teaching apostasy, the greek word for FORSAKE moses in 21;21, so big deal, paul who did certain things for the gospel, took the vow, to commend to james, paul said in 2 cor 4 he commends to others consciences, so yeah, big deal, he took the vow to not freak out james.

so u ignore alot, while looking to extraneous things, to promote a theology, we need to go by the whole, and not try to freeze certain events, in an unfolding narrative, and act like paul still lived as a jew, when he said he did not, and i got text to rpve it, i u so desire.

said with all due respect...

 

[Frogster]

Then Paul was severed. He kept the Law.



He participated in the Festivals (Acts 18 20-22)

He took a Nazirite vow (Act 18:18-19)

He helped in the Nazirite vow of others (Acts 21:20-26)

He brought offerings to the Temple (Acts 24:17-18)

he called it all poop in phil 3, and he said his FORMER life in judaism in gal 1, and gal 4:12, he said he became as a gentile...

but yeah...gee...oh my, he took a vow!

luv ya!

 

[annier]

Can you show me a couple of Scriptures so that I can see where you are coming from on this, it is getting tricky to follow because so many people seem to have a different understanding about the whole import of what is being spoken about.

Also permit me to give a passage that gives a sense of what I am trying to get across...unsuccessfully. (ps I was generalizing when I used the word 'ignor' in another post)

1Cor 9: 19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Just use the word Torah instead of Law, and perhaps you will see.

Mt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Lu 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Lu 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The law and the prophets were until john, the law and the prophets prophesied until John.

Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

The law prophesies wrath.

 

[Steve Petersen]

The law prophesies wrath.

It speaks of Jesus.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

See my siggy.

 

[annier]

It speaks of Jesus.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

See my siggy.

See the verses? And beginning with Moses, and all the prophets.
Do you agree Moses was a prophet? Do you agree Moses prophesied concerning the nation of Israel? Would you agree, the prophets which came after Moses could not prophesy against Moses prophetic utterances in the law?

 

[Steve Petersen]

See the verses? And beginning with Moses, and all the prophets.
Do you agree Moses was a prophet? Do you agree Moses prophesied concerning the nation of Israel? Would you agree, the prophets which came after Moses could not prophesy against Moses prophetic utterances in the law?

I was rebutting your point that the Law is about wrath.

It is also about Jesus.

 

[annier]

I was rebutting your point that the Law is about wrath.

It is also about Jesus.

The law is about wrath. You did not provide a rebuttal to my post that I could discern.
Moses prophesied concerning Israel in the law. All the prophets also had to agree with Moses concerning that.

Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Christ came to fulfill the law.

 

[Zeek]

51:1 is clear, keep the law, the council said no, paul went there to ward off snipping, because of those of 15:1, that came to ruin everything in Antioch, snipping meant?????



5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

It's ok, I'll leave quietly...this time.

 

[annier]

A different standard for Jews and a different standard for Gentiles, that sounds rather unfair and not like our God at all! I thought God was no respector of persons. Either everyone who loves God should embrace Torah or everyone should be free from obligation to following it.

Well, those that were upset with the sons of Levi, said simillar things about them. The preists had commandments not given the people of Israel. Heck the levites were not even heirs with the sons of Jacob in the land.

 

[Frogster]

It speaks of Jesus.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

See my siggy.

peter said the prophets looked for the GRACE to come, in 1 peter 1.

 

[Frogster]

The law is about wrath. You did not provide a rebuttal to my post that I could discern.
Moses prophesied concerning Israel in the law. All the prophets also had to agree with Moses concerning that.

Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Christ came to fulfill the law.

 

[New_Wineskin]

ITs really not all that circular. When an MJ pushes the Sabbath its because they feel its meaningful and theres a reason God gave man the Sabbath as a day of rest. (You know the term Sabbatical? Same derivative). It's not a matter of salvation to MJs. But to them it is one way of obeying God and I mean isnt obeying God what we should be doing? So the argument isnt 'do I need this to be saved?", the argument moreso should lie in whether God wants us to obey Him in matters of Torah or not, that is what the whole Torah debate should be. Salvational matters arent an issue, so dont twist it into such or blame the MJs for making it such, they arent and I can see that.

MJ's are never involved in this . When they come in , they rebutt the Gentiles posing as Messianics . They know that the Torah is not to be imposed on the Gentiles .

To say that it is about obedience and not a requirement for salvation/righteousness is contradictory . Those are word games to keep them from losing those who cannot keep the discussion straight - for those who get lost in a discussion - for the weak-minded .

To disobey the Lord is to be unrighteous and salvation is not for the disobedient . So , you are back to what everyone in this discussion knows - it is about a works-based mentality to obtain righteousness and salvation through one's own effort with no faith involved to any degree .

 

[Frogster]

It's ok, I'll leave quietly...this time.

no, stick around, i like chatting with ya!

 

[Eliwho]

i postet text, it was not given to the gentiles, u can refute the text, if u so desire.

also, you did not quote the verse before, it talks about the writings that made wise unto salvation by faith, it was not about works, as far as the ALL SCRIPTURE GOES, if you read the full context..lookie here..

15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Okay, let's look at that verse.

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Nothing in that changed the meaning of " all " in the next verse.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and

is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

In your statement you said they were never given the torah.
What are you thinkin'? Paul went around tearing those pages outta their books?
He did not have a phobia against the law.
You should pay a little more attention to Galatians.
The law did not void the covenant nor was it against it.


17 And this I say , that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in

Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot

disannul , that it should make the promise of none effect .

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid

say, did we ever chat before on the forum, u seem familiar?

Maybe yer beginnin' to recognize the Spirit when you hear it.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Which of those I posted are explicitly called out in the New Covenant?

No, sorry, the answer I gave was sufficient. If you want to pursue it further, you go ahead and explain how each and every one of them can plausibly be understood as an example of "Love," especially in light of the fact that Jesus explicitly released us from all "clean food" requirements, and Paul explicitly released us from all "holy day" requirements, as well as all the rest of the rules, regulations, and commandments except "love."

 

[NorrinRadd]

Maybe yer beginnin' to recognize the Spirit when you hear it.

That's the main value of the Law. When we hear a bunch of stuff that sounds like rules, regulations, laws, commandments, we can be pretty sure we're NOT hearing the Spirit.

 

[Eliwho]

That's the main value of the Law. When we hear a bunch of stuff that sounds like rules, regulations, laws, commandments, we can be pretty sure we're NOT hearing the Spirit.

You talkin' bout the same Spirit that said not knowing these commandments would keep you outta the kingdom?


8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust .

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived : neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

For this ye know , that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Not just those who are of the world, but a brother also:


9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company , if any man

that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat .

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth . Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Lotta torah preachin' goin' on here for nobody to have been given it.