Topless Danes

[Nadiine]

Men are on the most part more physically stimulated - they go for eye candy - most women - are more mentally stimulated. Thats why.

that's a biological fact... I read a commentary that Paul's guideline on modest apparel was to the women, not the men and that it stemmed from the men being 'hardwired' to visual arousal - women don't have that - or at least as much.

I sure don't and I remember subscribing to Playgirl one time just to try to make myself be physically aroused by them - no such luck.
How much male porn is sold to women? I don't doubt that most men's porn is bought by gay men, not females.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Exactly ^

All one really needs to do is ask why there are so many topless bars catering to men and where are all the male topless bars catering to women?

 

[Nadiine]

Exactly ^

All one really needs to do is ask why there are so many topless bars catering to men and where are all the male topless bars catering to women?

I wonder if Europeans have topless bars?

Oh, one quick story - my husband visited his daughter who was doing some missionary work in Thailand a few years ago.

They stayed at a very nice hotel in a popular vacation city. Long story short, he was sitting by the pool w/ her talking over ice tea, and the european women by the pool took their tops off.

Can I just say that as a wife when her husband is out of the country for 10 days, with 1/2 naked women, it's not real cool as I sit at home wondering what's going on out there. Not mistrust, just that it leads men to think sexually - or causes them to stumble when they're married.

The Thai people don't go topless. But that's another instance of topless women - you never know who the "audience" is, and who it does stumble who IS into boobs (which most men are).

 

[Angel4Truth]

Aww that would bother me too !

 

[white dove]

LOL oh how sick.
I knew a guy in a chat room who would come in and do his darndest to get us on subjects about feet. It turned into a huge joke hahha.

I'm really weird about feet. I pamper mine with lotion and scrubs(I HATE dryness!, but I ultimately hate how they look. My ideal is to go barefoot, but I own about 30 pairs of shoes. I don't like people touching my feetsies, but I let my boyfriend massage them. (He likes it... and a part of me thinks he may have a fetish(!!!) b/c inside, I'm thinking, Wouldn't he have to have a fetish in order to be doing this...??)

But hey, I LOVE a good strappy sandal with a nice heel and pretty toenail polish!!!

T-straps, baby.... t-straps.

They end up looking like leatherface from the Texas Chainsaw Massacre in about 5-7 years. I also worry about breast cancer too with the melanoma's.

I actually know someone who looks like that. She is literally baked-in brown - not even in a flattering way. She does look like leather. I don't mean this in a cruel way, but she is really hard to look at. You just sort of feel her pain.



On a sidenote... isn't it interesting how when women gyrate half-naked, naked or fully clothed, it's sexy... but when men do it, it just looks ridiculous? I always found that fascinating... I've had the displeasure of watching men strip for a bachelorette party and let me tell you... not turned on. I wasn't really looking at their blatent sexuality... I just noticed how homosexual the movements made them appear - and as a heterosexual woman, that is just not sexy to me. I also witnessed women stripping and thought... Hmmm... more hip action and then you got it. - and then I felt sorry for them. But, in any case, intriguing how sensual women's bodies are in comparison to men's. The whole "utilitarian" comment Elaine once made in an episode of Seinfeld...

 

[Angel4Truth]

ROFL !!! I just had to pick myself up off the floor after reading this :

On a sidenote... isn't it interesting how when women gyrate half-naked, naked or fully clothed, it's sexy... but when men do it, it just looks ridiculous? I always found that fascinating... I've had the displeasure of watching men strip for a bachelorette party and let me tell you... not turned on. I wasn't really looking at their blatent sexuality... I just noticed how homosexual the movements made them appear - and as a heterosexual woman, that is just not sexy to me. I also witnessed women stripping and thought... Hmmm... more hip action and then you got it. - and then I felt sorry for them. But, in any case, intriguing how sensual women's bodies are in comparison to men's. The whole "utilitarian" comment Elaine once made in an episode of Seinfeld...

Its sooooooo true!!!!

 

[TheReasoner]

What is modest? How do we decide what is or isn't modest?
Is this modest:

Is this modest:

Is this modest?

The answer to all of them is both yes, and no.

The Burqa is the pinnacle of moedesty in Afghanistan, Iran and similar places. But here it's the opposite. A woman in a burqa draws eyes. In anger, in distaste, in mere curiosity, or simply because it's unusual. In our culture, covering a woman like that is wrong. It draws attention, and is therefore not very modest. Given that Websters says modesty is:
(of a woman) dressing or behaving so as to avoid impropriety or indecency, esp. to avoid attracting sexual attention.
A burqa is indecent here.I'm quite sure some men find it sexually alluring to know it's a woman but having no idea what she looks like. (I don't though)

Then there's a Norwegian national wedding costume. Is that indecent? Absolutely not. Not here. But in Iran and Afghanistan it would most certainly be. According to the bible it is too:
…in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works (1 Timothy 2:9-10).

Do not let your adornment be that outward adorning of arranging the hair, of wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel; but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God.(1 Peter 3:3-4)
This dress in the second picture is very costly indeed. And it's heavily adorned, and the hair is most definitely arranged. But in Norway - and I am sure to almost everyone who posts here - it is very modest indeed.

Then we come to the dreaded bare chest in the third picture. Is this really immodest? In afghanistan probably enough so for her to get stoned to death over it. So the answer would be a 'yes' in Afghanistan. But what about in the jungles of South America, the islands in Oceania or plenty of places in Africa? There it really isn't immodest at all. It's common and doesn't attract attention. Whereas in those cultures dressing up will be indecent as it does attract sexual attention and attraction.

What's indecent depends largely on where you're from. All in all, being modest is dressing and behaving in a way which attracts sexual attention and attraction. And you don't have to do much to do so. You can however, be wearing a bikini without seeking to or actually attracting sexual attention. You can in many places be naked and attract less sexual attention than if you had started dressing up. In Scandinavia we have a relaxed view non our bodies. We're not a people who will shun nudity, and we're not a people who will go overboard having sex all the time either, which seems to be what someone here suggests.

As you may notice from the two verses it doesn't say not to wear little clothing. It does, however, say not to wear costly clothing. And if you look into the historical norm back then, I am sure what Nadiine is wearing is far from modest or unattractive. Most women of today wear clothes which are perfectly modest by our standards, but if you go back 2000 years it would attract all sorts of attention. Modesty is relative.

 

[wannabeadesigirl]

So men can be turned on by womens breasts, but women can't be turned on by a topless man? That's a lie because it's happened to me. A woman can be aroused by a topless man just as much as he can be by a topless woman.
@ faith guardian: I think modesty spoken of in Timothy is negated when it comes to weddings...at least the picture below seems to think so
Apparently this is an ancient Hebrew wedding gown.

Now we know where the tradition of carrying the bride and groom on the chairs came from. The bride would be too weighted down to walk other wise...

 

[TheReasoner]

So men can be turned on by womens breasts, but women can't be turned on by a topless man? That's a lie because it's happened to me. A woman can be aroused by a topless man just as much as he can be by a topless woman.
@ faith guardian: I think modesty spoken of in Timothy is negated when it comes to weddings...at least the picture below seems to think so
Apparently this is an ancient Hebrew wedding gown.

Now we know where the tradition of carrying the bride and groom on the chairs came from. The bride would be too weighted down to walk other wise...

True. But Norwegian national costumes are full of jewelry anyway. Minus the crown of course.

 

[Nadiine]

What is modest? How do we decide what is or isn't modest?
Is this modest:

e answer to all of them is both yes, and no.

The Burqa is the pinnacle of moedesty in Afghanistan, Iran and similar places. But here it's the opposite. A woman in a burqa draws eyes. In anger, in distaste, in mere curiosity, or simply because it's unusual. In our culture, covering a woman like that is wrong. It draws attention, and is therefore not very modest. Given that Websters says modesty is:
(of a woman) dressing or behaving so as to avoid impropriety or indecency, esp. to avoid attracting sexual attention.
A burqa is indecent here.I'm quite sure some men find it sexually alluring to know it's a woman but having no idea what she looks like. (I don't though)

Then there's a Norwegian national wedding costume. Is that indecent? Absolutely not. Not here. But in Iran and Afghanistan it would most certainly be. According to the bible it is too:
…in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works (1 Timothy 2:9-10).

Do not let your adornment be that outward adorning of arranging the hair, of wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel; but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God.(1 Peter 3:3-4)
This dress in the second picture is very costly indeed. And it's heavily adorned, and the hair is most definitely arranged. But in Norway - and I am sure to almost everyone who posts here - it is very modest indeed.

Then we come to the dreaded bare chest in the third picture. Is this really immodest? In afghanistan probably enough so for her to get stoned to death over it. So the answer would be a 'yes' in Afghanistan. But what about in the jungles of South America, the islands in Oceania or plenty of places in Africa? There it really isn't immodest at all. It's common and doesn't attract attention. Whereas in those cultures dressing up will be indecent as it does attract sexual attention and attraction.

What's indecent depends largely on where you're from. All in all, being modest is dressing and behaving in a way which attracts sexual attention and attraction. And you don't have to do much to do so. You can however, be wearing a bikini without seeking to or actually attracting sexual attention. You can in many places be naked and attract less sexual attention than if you had started dressing up. In Scandinavia we have a relaxed view non our bodies. We're not a people who will shun nudity, and we're not a people who will go overboard having sex all the time either, which seems to be what someone here suggests.

As you may notice from the two verses it doesn't say not to wear little clothing. It does, however, say not to wear costly clothing. And if you look into the historical norm back then, I am sure what Nadiine is wearing is far from modest or unattractive. Most women of today wear clothes which are perfectly modest by our standards, but if you go back 2000 years it would attract all sorts of attention. Modesty is relative.

sorry but this doesn't work either - nice attempts tho.

You keep going back to culture- WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOUR CULTURE HAS TURNED EVIL? Do we live by cultural laws or God's laws? Holding up people of other cultures merely negates what God says.
We don't follow THEM, we follow God who's HOLY SPIRIT is within the genuine Christian. We do not live like those around us or far away from us - we are guided by God's Spirit. NOT MAN.
God DOES impress upon us that it is immodest/wrong to go 1/2 naked in public; namely in front of men.

Modesty is NOT nudity. Have you bothered looking up modest/modesty in a dictionary?
I'm still baffled how modesty and NUDITY go hand in hand in what God meant by modest, moderation...

I know we LOVE to look to our little remote pgymy tribes to get our fashion cue's when it suits us best, but it doesn't support toplessness just becuz they do it out in the back jungles.... no more than street drugs & Prostitution become acceptable just becuz the people of Amsterdam have legalized and accepted them there.

We don't point to others to decide what's Godly or moral - WE LOOK TO THE LORD.

Again, name me all the upstanding, historical topless Christian women! I'd like to hear about them all - name me the Christian teachers both current and historical who have taught toplessness/nudity for God's people.

List them out for me; becuz I've never seen ONE teaching by a dedicated, bible believing Christian advocating nudity in public from the scriptures.
(and if you stumbled onto 1 I can assure you, my first reply would be - they serve a different god than I do).

The reason it isn't taught or promoted is becuz it is not modest or moral or Godly - Christian women know by their inner conscience that it is not appropriate - inside or outside the church.

I already mentioned the story of my husband in Thailand with European topless sunbathers - I don't appreciate that as his wife and as a Christian [male] husband, it lures him to LOOK. Topless women cannot know their "audience" while in the open public (ie beach, poolside, park, etc) and they obviously don't care who they lure or stumble to gawk at their boobs even outside their respective countries.


The next post will be an excerpt about modesty

 

[Nadiine]

...Many times what we wear helps to mold their expectations as well as our own. When a woman wears an immodest dress, she begins to think of herself as seductive and acts accordingly. Other people perceive her as provocative and treat her as such, which reinforces her behavior.
In short, appearance both reflects and to large degree determines what we are in the eyes of self and others.

We must ask what practices of the time concerned God enough for Him to inspire this passage. What clothing did Paul have in mind when he warned against immodesty of dress? In a day when women wore robes to the ankle, what type of immodest dress existed? If Paul found immodest clothing in an age characterized by greater modesty of dress than our own, certainly he would consider many styles of clothing today to be immodest.
As Chapter 8 will note, many women of the time tucked in their tunics above the knee for convenience in certain activities, and the early church fathers considered this immodest.
God was concerned about modesty of dress in a day when even exposing the upper leg was considered immodest.
In Isaiah 47:2-3 God considered baring the leg and uncovering the thigh to be shameful exposure of nakedness. This gives us a good idea as to what God would regard as the minimum standard of modesty, regardless of culture.


The basic reason for modesty of dress is to subdue the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life. The exposed body tends to arouse improper thoughts in both wearer and onlooker. To implement the purpose behind modest dress, the body should basically be covered, except for those parts which we must use openly for normal living.

To some degree modesty is culturally relative. We must certainly dress in a manner that would be considered modest for the occasion and in the judgment of our culture.
For example, 19th century society considered it improper for a woman to expose any of her leg in public.

Applying principles of Christian liberty, a Christian woman of that day should not have worn a knee-length dress, for this would have brought reproach upon her and the Lord. However, there must be a minimum of modesty that is absolute. Otherwise, if society condoned total nudity, Christians could walk around nude.
If so, we could delete I Timothy 2:9 from the Bible as irrelevant.


Finally, the heart must be modest and motives pure. Conduct, gestures, gait, body language, and speech must be modest. If a woman wants to, she can display her body immodestly and act seductively even in the most modest of dresses. We must never use dress to promote immodest conduct, and no degree of external modesty can cover-up an immodest, lustful spirit.

---------------------------------------
another short excerpt on modesty:
Why Should Christian Teens Be Modest?

As a Christian your behavior sets the tone for how others see you and your faith. Being modest in your appearance is just as great a witness to those around you as your words.
One issue many non-Christians have with believers is that they tend to be hypocritical. If you are preaching purity and modesty to others while wearing revealing clothes you may be seen as a hypocrite.
By being modest you allow people to see your inner faith rather than your outer appearance.


1 Peter 2:12 - "Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (NLT)
----------------------------------------
Again, these CHRISTIAN views on the meaning of modesty IS NOT PARADING AROUND TOPLESS- 1/2 naked.

Look up any CHRISTIAN article on modesty and you will not find them teaching that it's fine for women to go parading around topless (anywhere).

This was to point out the most important point on this topic, WE FOLLOW GOD, NOT THE WORLD AND ITS TRENDS.
It boils down to a heart issue - if women can go 1/2 naked in public without any guilt or shame, then there's a conscience disconnect from the Holy Spirit that she isn't recieving - or she's in direct rebellion.

 

[TheReasoner]

In your culture it's probably right. In my culture what you seem to propose it's considered false modesty, or even quite the opposite of moderation. In fact, it is often considered shame. Or a sign that you despise your own body. We're a small country se we tend to understand other cultures see this differently.
Your attitude here would be quite harmful to your goal. What you see as modesty we see as - well, not modesty. That's for sure.

I would encourage you to get outside of the US of A for a few years. To live among people of a very different culture. It'll be hard, it is for all of us who try to live in another culture. But - it is also very giving and can teach you a lot about why I hold the position I do while still being a Christian. Not a flim-flamy luke warm one either but a man who loves the Lord


But let me ask you this - do you or have you ever worn jewelry, expensive clothes and/or arranged your hair? If so, why do you hold such a strong stance against things you don't agree with. Because the bible is very very clear. Braiding or arranging your hair is immodest, and Godly women shouldn't do neither that nor wear jewelry.

 

[Nadiine]

In your culture it's probably right. In my culture what you seem to propose it's considered false modesty, or even quite the opposite of moderation.

I see nothing I repeated ad nauseum got thru to you.
YOUR CULTURE IS NOT THE LITMUS TEST FOR MODESTY, God's word is - and God's SPIRIT within a Christian is who guides that modesty.
You keep your eye on people and the world, AND THAT IS WHO YOU ARE FOLLOWING, not God.

We obey modesty despite what culture/the world dictates and does as a majority. You don't seem get this... and I'm beginning to wonder why.

In fact, it is often considered shame. Or a sign that you despise your own body. We're a small country se we tend to understand other cultures see this differently
Your attitude here would be quite harmful to your goal. What you see as modesty we see as - well, not modesty. That's for sure.

Toplessness is NOT MODESTY. Partial nudity is not modesty.

I

would encourage you to get outside of the US of A for a few years. To live among people of a very different culture. It'll be hard, it is for all of us who try to live in another culture. But - it is also very giving and can teach you a lot about why I hold the position I do while still being a Christian. Not a flim-flamy luke warm one either but a man who loves the Lord

I would urge you to get inside scripture and obey the morality God has set before us, not what your culture sets before you.
Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

But let me ask you this - do you or have you ever worn jewelry, expensive clothes and/or arranged your hair? If so, why do you hold such a strong stance against things you don't agree with. Because the bible is very very clear. Braiding or arranging your hair is immodest, and Godly women shouldn't do neither that nor wear jewelry.

how does this support toplessness?

If we aren't supposed to even braid our hair, or wear jewlery becuz of the attn. we're drawing to our outward appearance or material wealth how does TOPLESSNESS fit in to taking attn. OFF of us?

THAT is what you should be asking according to this topic. It doesn't lend itself to modesty within the context Paul is writing it in - if just fancy jewlery & fussy hairstyles was putting out the wrong focus on ATTN. TO SELF... how much more is going 1/2 naked?

 

[TheReasoner]

I see nothing I repeated ad nauseum got thru to you.

Repetition doesn't make anything any more true. It is, however, a very useful tool if you want to brainwash someone. Or memorizing something, of course.

YOUR CULTURE IS NOT THE LITMUS TEST FOR MODESTY, God's word is - and God's SPIRIT within a Christian is who guides that modesty.
You keep your eye on people and the world, AND THAT IS WHO YOU ARE FOLLOWING, not God.

So show me where it says women shall not go topless? It does say women shouldn't wear jewelry, but it doesn't say you shouldn't go topless. Not in as many words.

You seem to act on the premise that topless women draw sexual attention to themselves by the very deed of going topless. This is not universal. It depends on where you are. In the amazon for example, women have gone topless for thousands of years. It doesn't bother them, it isn't indecent and it isn't immodest. It's normal. To deviate from that norm would draw attention to yourself.
My wife spoke to a muslim who wears the full burqa here in Oslo. She asked why she wore it, and the response was 'to avoid attention being drawn to me'. This is what modesty is supposed to do. You're not supposed to draw sexual attention towards yourself. Yet by wearing a burqa and thus deviating radically from the norm, she did indeed draw a lot of attention to herself. Benign and otherwise.
In short, she was immodest. Even though wearing a burqa could easily be defended biblically by the same argument that you use.

We obey modesty despite what culture/the world dictates and does as a majority. You don't seem get this... and I'm beginning to wonder why.

No, I get it Nadiine. I understand exactly what you're saying. I just wholeheartedly disagree. You say you obey modesty. I believe you. So do I, even though I walk topless at times (I'm a guy so I hope that's OK with you)
But, if you were to go to the middle east, or even many other places in Asia or Africa while wearing what you consider to be biblical and modest, then you would be less modest than a woman running around naked in the US would be. You would probably wear shorts, a t-shirt and a cap I bet. The places can be hot. By doing so you're being extremely immodest by showing your legs, your face, arms, and by dressing as a man. You'd be drawing sexual attention as a rare earth magnet draws iron.

Toplessness is NOT MODESTY. Partial nudity is not modesty.

No, it isn't. Where you live. In the amazon it is. It has been for thousands of years. It's the way things are. Wearing clothes however. That can draw serious attention. Sexual and otherwise.

I
I would urge you to get inside scripture and obey the morality God has set before us, not what your culture sets before you.
Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

I have nothing against those verses. I do, however, think you're approaching them incorrectly.

how does this support toplessness?

If we aren't supposed to even braid our hair, or wear jewlery becuz of the attn. we're drawing to our outward appearance or material wealth how does TOPLESSNESS fit in to taking attn. OFF of us?

In your culture, it doesn't. Here, it can do. If you go to a nude beach wearing loads of clothes that draws attention.
I think the verse is clear. You're supposed to be modest in that you don't do things in order to get attention. Or do things you know will get attention. Well, here it doesn't draw attention for women to be topless in the right places. It doesn't draw attention for men or women to sunbathe in parks. It's the norm. It's perfectly acceptable - and it doesn't draw sexual attention. Not by itself. If you wee to plaster on makeup and lie in alluring stances or whatever then yes, it would. But that would get the wrong kind of attention regardless of how much or little clothes you wear.

Your premise that women take their shirts off to get attention is clearly colored by your own culture's approach to decency. For you, toplessness = sex. Or close to it. Here toplessness can mean 'sunbathing' or just regular enjoying the comfortable summer.

THAT is what you should be asking according to this topic. It doesn't lend itself to modesty within the context Paul is writing it in - if just fancy jewlery & fussy hairstyles was putting out the wrong focus on ATTN. TO SELF... how much more is going 1/2 naked?

Again, in your culture I am sure it's awfully alluring for women to go topless. I am sure if they do so it is to get attention. That's not the case in Denmark. It's as much for attention as putting on a cap. Or sitting down in a chair.
It's normal. It's acceptable. It isn't attention-drawing.

 

[Nadiine]

Repetition doesn't make anything any more true. It is, however, a very useful tool if you want to brainwash someone.

Repetition alone wasn't the issue, the TRUTH of the repeated statement IS the issue.
It is TRUE. And if you don't believe it was true, then you're claiming this as you claim to be a Christian:

"I am a Christian, but I follow the dictates and morality of my culture more than I follow the dictates and morality of God. My culture sets the tone for what is good and moral and I follow that".
Sorry, but that's following the WORLD instead of biblical principles from God.

So show me where it says women shall not go topless? It does say women shouldn't wear jewelry, but it doesn't say you shouldn't go topless. Not in as many words.

again, you've heard nothing said to you - the Bible has taught principles on what is godly and what is proper for God's people - if you cannot hear what they are and force the bible to speak verbatim to each possible sin that exists and WILL exist in the future, then you will be following the world instead of God.

It doesn't tell you every instance of all the ways you can steal... just DO NOT STEAL. It doesn't have to (nor can it) list every single thing

Where does it say no partial birth abortion? MURDER covers it tho.
It doesn't command you "do not have oral sex" as if since it doesn't say that and you aren't having intercourse, that it makes it ok - OTHER moral principles cover oral sex - fornication/immorality, lust, lewdness and others cover it without spelling it out.

Nudity is covered by modesty, moderation and propriety along with other principles on stumbling/leading others to sin, tempting others, etc.
Public nudity was never acceptable or custom during the times of Bible writing, so it isn't being promoted whatsoever.

You seem to act on the premise that topless women draw sexual attention to themselves by the very deed of going topless. This is not universal. It depends on where you are. In the amazon for example, women have gone topless for thousands of years. It doesn't bother them, it isn't indecent and it isn't immodest. It's normal. To deviate from that norm would draw attention to yourself.

AND BACK YOU GO TO WHAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE DONE IN OTHER CULTURES & SOCIETIES...:o
I can see it at judgment time, "but Lord, they did it!" "but Lord, they were doing it and our country legalized it"....
this is your litmus test for what is moral isn't it?
THE WORLD & what they do. Since that's obviously what you set as the standard for our morality, you will have a real hard time with scripture acceptability or understanding.

My wife spoke to a muslim who wears the full burqa here in Oslo. She asked why she wore it, and the response was 'to avoid attention being drawn to me'. This is what modesty is supposed to do. You're not supposed to draw sexual attention towards yourself. Yet by wearing a burqa and thus deviating radically from the norm, she did indeed draw a lot of attention to herself. Benign and otherwise.

She's not drawing SEXUAL ATTN. or materialistic attn. or SELF -- she's drawing attn. to her religious worldview and custom (biblically, that's her bigger problem since she worships a false god).

If I take what you're saying to be the issue, then all tourists are in trouble if they aren't wearing culturally expected attire wherever they travel.

The issue of this is the EXPOSURE OF SKIN - NAKEDNESS, not the type of head to toe covering she's wearing.

Is a burka/burqa "IMMODEST"? no it is not.

No, I get it Nadiine. I understand exactly what you're saying. I just wholeheartedly disagree. You say you obey modesty. I believe you. So do I, even though I walk topless at times (I'm a guy so I hope that's OK with you)
But, if you were to go to the middle east, or even many other places in Asia or Africa while wearing what you consider to be biblical and modest, then you would be less modest than a woman running around naked in the US would be. You would probably wear shorts, a t-shirt and a cap I bet. The places can be hot. By doing so you're being extremely immodest by showing your legs, your face, arms, and by dressing as a man. You'd be drawing sexual attention as a rare earth magnet draws iron.

This STILL is not addressing the issue, we're talking about NUDITY here, not different types of clothing... we're talking about NO CLOTHING AT ALL on the top 1/2 of the female body.
Female breasts ARE a sexual organ and have forever been viewed as such for the vast majority of males.
IF that weren't so, then you'de see the majority of cultures all thruout history who regularly indulged in female toplessness as a custom everywhere.
Even false religions know what modesty is - and that public nudity is wrong.

No, it isn't. Where you live. In the amazon it is. It has been for thousands of years. It's the way things are. Wearing clothes however. That can draw serious attention. Sexual and otherwise.

Modesty guidelines of attire is one thing, but WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SKIN EXPOSURE. nudity. That is lack of clothing.
And let me just say that this world has gotten more and more lewd in clothing trends. Alot of what's popular for teens to wear in the USA is absolutely immodest.
The tops have turned into what lingerie stores used to sell for the bedroom and the lists go on.

It's immodest and I've heard plenty of younger Christian guys (who are already struggling with hormones raging and trying to have a close walk with the Lord) complaining that girls are dressing so sexy that they have a hard time not lusting everywhere they go anymore. EVEN AT CHURCH!.

THIS is what we're getting at here. I don't care about how culture says "this lingerie style top is -in style-"
It is showing too much skin and is causing lust and sexual interest in them. Men are visually stimulated sexually - women are not. Most of us admit it.

Completely taking off the top is hardly going to make him lust/focus LESS on sex is it?
What I'm seeing here is a "Me-ism" issue. "I" demand that I be able to wear whatever I want if I want to wear it. "I" demand that I be equal with a man's right to go bare chested. "I" demand that I am not responsible for what others think or do in relation to what I publically display.

These things are Me-ism ; ME FIRST. A Christian's heart and spirit are putting OTHERS first - what will my toplessness cause others to think or feel or remember or lead them to do becuz of it?
A Christian's heart is also on their outward witness & testimony of Jesus Christ -are we representing Christ as we go 1/2 naked to the world?
hardly.
Read Romans 14 on stumbling others - those European women in Thailand may very well be accustomed to being topless where they live - but other people travel to hotels and go to the beach where there's young children... what are they leading other people to think or focus on?

Sorry, it's not Christian conduct in any way and it never HAS BEEN.
I still keep asking for all this proof of prominant Christians teaching or promoting toplessness anywhere today or historically.
CHRISTIANS DO NOT TEACH OR SUPPORT THIS.

I have nothing against those verses. I do, however, think you're approaching them incorrectly.

Of course you do... but the facts listed still remain - and I still believe that deep down, every genuine Christian knows what is moral & modest. People embrace rebellion without recognizing it as such.

In your culture, it doesn't. Here, it can do. If you go to a nude beach wearing loads of clothes that draws attention.

AGAIN, CULTURE. by the way, WHY IS A CHRISTIAN GOING TO A NUDE BEACH?
They wouldn't BE there. And, as I've read up on nude beaches, there are people on them who stay clothed - you don't have to be naked to be on a nude beach.

I think the verse is clear. You're supposed to be modest in that you don't do things in order to get attention. Or do things you know will get attention. Well, here it doesn't draw attention for women to be topless in the right places. It doesn't draw attention for men or women to sunbathe in parks. It's the norm. It's perfectly acceptable - and it doesn't draw sexual attention. Not by itself. If you wee to plaster on makeup and lie in alluring stances or whatever then yes, it would. But that would get the wrong kind of attention regardless of how much or little clothes you wear.

AGAIN, YOU LET THE WORLD DICTATE MODESTY, NOT GOD.
Who do you follow? If they all jumped off bridges, would you jump with them?
Is prostitution ok with God just becuz it's open and rampant and normal in Amsterdam?

You keep bypassing spiritual truths for the WORLD TRENDS. I don't care what is normal in whatever culture, it does NOT give us moral right to follow along with them.
God didn't allow the Israelites to get tattoo's or pierce their ears.... there's no "sin" in tattooing or piercing is there? The point is what God said He was doing, He was keeping them from following the pagan/gentiles around them - keeping them from becomming like them/ copying them which would continue to follow in their spiritual/religious customs (which it did every time).

They looked around them, and wanted to do what the pagans were doing, not what GOD was ordaining.

Your premise that women take their shirts off to get attention is clearly colored by your own culture's approach to decency. For you, toplessness = sex. Or close to it. Here toplessness can mean 'sunbathing' or just regular enjoying the comfortable summer.

Are you going to tell me that young boys that see 1/2 naked women aren't going to have their hormones raging?
Wrong, toplessness does not = sex, IT' EQUALS THOUGHTS ON THE FEMALE BODY. Focus on her body - men are visually stimulated and the more skin they see, the more they desire or think about sex or put focus on what is physical.
It also desensitizes us to nudity so that we become callous to what is modest! (as we already see now)

Analyzing this doesn't change anything. it is what it is.
And you certainly cannot speak for every male that sees a 1/2 naked woman doesn't lust, can you??
You know what each man is thinking, feeling??

Again, in your culture I am sure it's awfully alluring for women to go topless. I am sure if they do so it is to get attention. That's not the case in Denmark. It's as much for attention as putting on a cap. Or sitting down in a chair.
It's normal. It's acceptable. It isn't attention-drawing

And again, I'm sure prostitution, crack cocaine, strip bars & heroine are all moral and good since Amsterdam says it's acceptable.

YOU LIVE BY AND FOLLOW THE WORLD/CULTURE to dictate what is moral or modest - I live by God's word (and His Spirit within me) on what is moral and modest.
And I promise you that if America started toplessness as a cultural trend, it wouldn't change one thing as far as being immodest and wrong.

 

[Nadiine]

In Isaiah 47:2-3 God considered baring the leg and uncovering the thigh to be shameful exposure of nakedness. This gives us a good idea as to what God would regard as the minimum standard of modesty, regardless of culture.

This may have gone unnoticed... but if God had relayed that even displaying a bare thigh is naked exposure, then I'd like to know how bearing the complete upper torso of a female is modesty in God's view?
In what Paul was writing about modest apparel.???

 

[TheReasoner]

Repetition alone wasn't the issue, the TRUTH of the repeated statement IS the issue.
It is TRUE. And if you don't believe it was true, then you're claiming this as you claim to be a Christian:

"I am a Christian, but I follow the dictates and morality of my culture more than I follow the dictates and morality of God. My culture sets the tone for what is good and moral and I follow that".
Sorry, but that's following the WORLD instead of biblical principles from God.


again, you've heard nothing said to you - the Bible has taught principles on what is godly and what is proper for God's people - if you cannot hear what they are and force the bible to speak verbatim to each possible sin that exists and WILL exist in the future, then you will be following the world instead of God.

It doesn't tell you every instance of all the ways you can steal... just DO NOT STEAL. It doesn't have to (nor can it) list every single thing

Where does it say no partial birth abortion? MURDER covers it tho.
It doesn't command you "do not have oral sex" as if since it doesn't say that and you aren't having intercourse, that it makes it ok - OTHER moral principles cover oral sex - fornication/immorality, lust, lewdness and others cover it without spelling it out.

Nudity is covered by modesty, moderation and propriety along with other principles on stumbling/leading others to sin, tempting others, etc.
Public nudity was never acceptable or custom during the times of Bible writing, so it isn't being promoted whatsoever.


AND BACK YOU GO TO WHAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE DONE IN OTHER CULTURES & SOCIETIES...:o
I can see it at judgment time, "but Lord, they did it!" "but Lord, they were doing it and our country legalized it"....
this is your litmus test for what is moral isn't it?
THE WORLD & what they do. Since that's obviously what you set as the standard for our morality, you will have a real hard time with scripture acceptability or understanding.


She's not drawing SEXUAL ATTN. or materialistic attn. or SELF -- she's drawing attn. to her religious worldview and custom (biblically, that's her bigger problem since she worships a false god).

If I take what you're saying to be the issue, then all tourists are in trouble if they aren't wearing culturally expected attire wherever they travel.

The issue of this is the EXPOSURE OF SKIN - NAKEDNESS, not the type of head to toe covering she's wearing.

Is a burka/burqa "IMMODEST"? no it is not.




This STILL is not addressing the issue, we're talking about NUDITY here, not different types of clothing... we're talking about NO CLOTHING AT ALL on the top 1/2 of the female body.
Female breasts ARE a sexual organ and have forever been viewed as such for the vast majority of males.
IF that weren't so, then you'de see the majority of cultures all thruout history who regularly indulged in female toplessness as a custom everywhere.
Even false religions know what modesty is - and that public nudity is wrong.



Modesty guidelines of attire is one thing, but WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SKIN EXPOSURE. nudity. That is lack of clothing.
And let me just say that this world has gotten more and more lewd in clothing trends. Alot of what's popular for teens to wear in the USA is absolutely immodest.
The tops have turned into what lingerie stores used to sell for the bedroom and the lists go on.

It's immodest and I've heard plenty of younger Christian guys (who are already struggling with hormones raging and trying to have a close walk with the Lord) complaining that girls are dressing so sexy that they have a hard time not lusting everywhere they go anymore. EVEN AT CHURCH!.

THIS is what we're getting at here. I don't care about how culture says "this lingerie style top is -in style-"
It is showing too much skin and is causing lust and sexual interest in them. Men are visually stimulated sexually - women are not. Most of us admit it.

Completely taking off the top is hardly going to make him lust/focus LESS on sex is it?
What I'm seeing here is a "Me-ism" issue. "I" demand that I be able to wear whatever I want if I want to wear it. "I" demand that I be equal with a man's right to go bare chested. "I" demand that I am not responsible for what others think or do in relation to what I publically display.

These things are Me-ism ; ME FIRST. A Christian's heart and spirit are putting OTHERS first - what will my toplessness cause others to think or feel or remember or lead them to do becuz of it?
A Christian's heart is also on their outward witness & testimony of Jesus Christ -are we representing Christ as we go 1/2 naked to the world?
hardly.
Read Romans 14 on stumbling others - those European women in Thailand may very well be accustomed to being topless where they live - but other people travel to hotels and go to the beach where there's young children... what are they leading other people to think or focus on?

Sorry, it's not Christian conduct in any way and it never HAS BEEN.
I still keep asking for all this proof of prominant Christians teaching or promoting toplessness anywhere today or historically.
CHRISTIANS DO NOT TEACH OR SUPPORT THIS.




Of course you do... but the facts listed still remain - and I still believe that deep down, every genuine Christian knows what is moral & modest. People embrace rebellion without recognizing it as such.



AGAIN, CULTURE. by the way, WHY IS A CHRISTIAN GOING TO A NUDE BEACH?
They wouldn't BE there. And, as I've read up on nude beaches, there are people on them who stay clothed - you don't have to be naked to be on a nude beach.


AGAIN, YOU LET THE WORLD DICTATE MODESTY, NOT GOD.
Who do you follow? If they all jumped off bridges, would you jump with them?
Is prostitution ok with God just becuz it's open and rampant and normal in Amsterdam?

You keep bypassing spiritual truths for the WORLD TRENDS. I don't care what is normal in whatever culture, it does NOT give us moral right to follow along with them.
God didn't allow the Israelites to get tattoo's or pierce their ears.... there's no "sin" in tattooing or piercing is there? The point is what God said He was doing, He was keeping them from following the pagan/gentiles around them - keeping them from becomming like them/ copying them which would continue to follow in their spiritual/religious customs (which it did every time).

They looked around them, and wanted to do what the pagans were doing, not what GOD was ordaining.


Are you going to tell me that young boys that see 1/2 naked women aren't going to have their hormones raging?
Wrong, toplessness does not = sex, IT' EQUALS THOUGHTS ON THE FEMALE BODY. Focus on her body - men are visually stimulated and the more skin they see, the more they desire or think about sex or put focus on what is physical.
It also desensitizes us to nudity so that we become callous to what is modest! (as we already see now)

Analyzing this doesn't change anything. it is what it is.
And you certainly cannot speak for every male that sees a 1/2 naked woman doesn't lust, can you??
You know what each man is thinking, feeling??




And again, I'm sure prostitution, crack cocaine, strip bars & heroine are all moral and good since Amsterdam says it's acceptable.

YOU LIVE BY AND FOLLOW THE WORLD/CULTURE to dictate what is moral or modest - I live by God's word (and His Spirit within me) on what is moral and modest.
And I promise you that if America started toplessness as a cultural trend, it wouldn't change one thing as far as being immodest and wrong.

Whatever Nadiine.
Have a nice weekend

 

[Nadiine]

Whatever Nadiine.
Have a nice weekend

 

[TheReasoner]

Okay. I'll bite one last time. But I think I'll let the gloves slip a little this time as I feel you've been very disrespectful, boasting and arrogant Nadiine. Aas one Christian to another, I don't think this is a Godly approach to our differences. As your brother in Christ I would encourage you to be more humble and less arrogant and boastful.

There. I'll put the gloves back on now.

Repetition alone wasn't the issue, the TRUTH of the repeated statement IS the issue.
It is TRUE. And if you don't believe it was true, then you're claiming this as you claim to be a Christian:

"I am a Christian, but I follow the dictates and morality of my culture more than I follow the dictates and morality of God. My culture sets the tone for what is good and moral and I follow that".
Sorry, but that's following the WORLD instead of biblical principles from God.

I do not think this is an accurate depiction of the issue at hand. I understand this is how you see it, but I disagree.
It is not about following my own culture more than I am following God. It is about understanding human beings. Understanding what makes us 'tick' - in regards to this thread, what makes us tick sexually. And why.
This world isn't black and white. A few months ago I would get sick if I ate any starches. Flour, potatoes, sugar... I'd get frustrated, dizzy, unfocused and tired. Now I'm fine. But when I had this issue eating these things would be bad for me. Even though according to the bible it's perfectly alright.
My point in this is not to relate it to toplessness, but rather to show that very many issues are highly relative.

again, you've heard nothing said to you - the Bible has taught principles on what is godly and what is proper for God's people - if you cannot hear what they are and force the bible to speak verbatim to each possible sin that exists and WILL exist in the future, then you will be following the world instead of God.

No Nadiine. I have heard it all. I just don't accept it. I have addressed much of what you have said that hasn't been repetition. I just disagree with it and have told you why. However, I cannot see you writing a response to what I have said. You have not addressed the issues I have brought forth, only repeated your old argument. Yes, I understand where you stand and what you think about the issue. Respectfully, I reserve my right to disagree with your generalization of the subject. I have heard what you have said, but I am not about to bow down and accept what you say just because you use the bible a lot. If I were to do that I would have bowed down and accepted that rappers should be hanged after a debate with a rather colorful person over at the politics forum. Not that I compare the two of you in the least. Just saying, you'll need more concrete evidence of toplessness being a universal evil before I am about to accept what you say as 'truth'.

AND BACK YOU GO TO WHAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE DONE IN OTHER CULTURES & SOCIETIES...:o
I can see it at judgment time, "but Lord, they did it!" "but Lord, they were doing it and our country legalized it"....
this is your litmus test for what is moral isn't it?
THE WORLD & what they do. Since that's obviously what you set as the standard for our morality, you will have a real hard time with scripture acceptability or understanding.

Well, Nadiine. This is one place I think you're wrong. You assume - it's an assumption - that I follow the world. You assume - again, an assumption - that breasts are universally a temptation. Yet I have shown you clear evidence of situations and cultures where this is not the case. Cases you have failed to address. Oh sure, you have cited the bible repetitively. But you haven't addressed the issue.
I am not and have not been saying that temptation is OK. I am not saying that fornication is OK. Very far from it. Flee from temptation and don't fornicate!
I am not saying that legalization makes things OK. What I am saying is that there are cultures where toplessness is natural and breasts therefore do not induce sexual arousal the same way it does in your own culture. I have pointed to places where showing your calves is worse than going topless in a church in the US. Yet again, you have failed to address that. The point, as you yourself have said, is to avoid temptation. I agree wholeheartedly. Temptation should be avoided and modesty is necessary. However, if you are in the middle east modesty is one thing. If you're in Africa it's another. In the Amazon, yet another. Modesty changes. What causes arousal is different.
Allow me to share a short story on this subject.

When I was drafted to the army I didn't get to leave the army camp for a few weeks during boot camp. None of us were allowed to leave. When we did, it was very apparent on all the guys that seeing any woman after not seeing a woman at all for several weeks, was arousing. It didn't matter what clothes they had on. It was a woman. That was enough. It didn't take bare chests. It didn't take miniskirts or half a ton of makeup. It took a member of the opposite sex. As most of the recruits were 18-20 year olds, the hormone levels were high. So that may have assisted. However - sexual arousal is not dependent on toplessness. Nor does toplessness encourage sexual arousal in all cultures.

If I take what you're saying to be the issue, then all tourists are in trouble if they aren't wearing culturally expected attire wherever they travel.

If they travel to the wrong places, then it could in fact be fatal. Yes.

The issue of this is the EXPOSURE OF SKIN - NAKEDNESS, not the type of head to toe covering she's wearing.

Is a burka/burqa "IMMODEST"? no it is not.

Yes, it is. Here it is immodest in that it triggers sinful thoughts and emotions. A Burqa causes anger, and to some it actually causes arousal. Though I should specify that I am not one of those.

Modesty guidelines of attire is one thing, but WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SKIN EXPOSURE. nudity. That is lack of clothing.

And let me just say that this world has gotten more and more lewd in clothing trends. Alot of what's popular for teens to wear in the USA is absolutely immodest.
The tops have turned into what lingerie stores used to sell for the bedroom and the lists go on.

It's immodest and I've heard plenty of younger Christian guys (who are already struggling with hormones raging and trying to have a close walk with the Lord) complaining that girls are dressing so sexy that they have a hard time not lusting everywhere they go anymore. EVEN AT CHURCH!.

I can understand that. Especially in the US. You have an immense focus on while attempting to repress human sexual nature. I have never seen anyone focus more on sex than an American who's trying not to focus on it. During my last visit there was only one thing on your major newschannels. Brittany Spears' sister had gotten pregnant. That was it. Before that there was of course Janet Jackson's breast. And before that Clinton's sin.
The focus your nation has on sex is immense. In TV shows, news, ads... It's everywhere. More so than here. Yet it is all shushed. Like it's taboo to talk about. And herein lies a great big temptation for a lot of young men. And women I'm sure. It's something everyone feels. Everyone has hormones raging at a certain age. It's a part of being human. Yet how can young men and women learn to deal with that if there is no talking about it? If sex is constantly a hush-hush topic yet at the same time takes up such a HUGE space in the media and advertisement business? This isn't about toplessness, but could illustrate why it's such a big issue in the US. We have a lot of sex in our advertising, while less than you I think. And many of our sex-focused ads are from the US. We have sex on TV, but most of it is from the US.

THIS is what we're getting at here. I don't care about how culture says "this lingerie style top is -in style-"
It is showing too much skin and is causing lust and sexual interest in them. Men are visually stimulated sexually - women are not. Most of us admit it.

Women can be too. Though fewer are, yes. Personally I don't think there's anything wrong in lusting for your spouse, but that's a different topic.
I don't care much for what's in either. I tend to dislike whatever is popular actually. And I think society is focusing too much on sex. But - breasts become an object of sexual attention more because they are covered up and hidden away as a norm than for the fact that they are breasts. It's like legs. If you start telling people legs are a sexual thing, have all the women cover their legs. Talk in roundabout ways of legs on TV all the time, men are going to find legs alluring.

Completely taking off the top is hardly going to make him lust/focus LESS on sex is it?

In a roundabout way through social adaptation it could. It depends on where the focus is more than anything else.

What I'm seeing here is a "Me-ism" issue. "I" demand that I be able to wear whatever I want if I want to wear it. "I" demand that I be equal with a man's right to go bare chested. "I" demand that I am not responsible for what others think or do in relation to what I publically display.

You see that because of where you are from. For some I am sure it may be a me-ism thing. Everything is a selfish issue to someone.

These things are Me-ism ; ME FIRST. A Christian's heart and spirit are putting OTHERS first - what will my toplessness cause others to think or feel or remember or lead them to do becuz of it?

Yes, I agree. But you seem to think that the issue is binary. That either something causes universal sexual temptation, or it isn't an issue at all. This simplification makes a lot of your points invalid. The issue isn't binary. There are complex factors involved.

A Christian's heart is also on their outward witness & testimony of Jesus Christ -are we representing Christ as we go 1/2 naked to the world?
hardly.
Read Romans 14 on stumbling others - those European women in Thailand may very well be accustomed to being topless where they live - but other people travel to hotels and go to the beach where there's young children... what are they leading other people to think or focus on?

And to this I agree. Whenever a Scandinavian woman goes outside Scandinavia she will need to adapt to their culture. Same goes for Americans, Afghanis, whatever.

Yet I really think you Americans could benefit a lot from less covert focus on sex. Which I think is instrumental in exactly this. If you want people to be better equipped to deal with something you don't shush discussions and chats about the subject while at the same time focusing a LOT of attention on it in public media.

Sorry, it's not Christian conduct in any way and it never HAS BEEN.
I still keep asking for all this proof of prominant Christians teaching or promoting toplessness anywhere today or historically.
CHRISTIANS DO NOT TEACH OR SUPPORT THIS.

Yet the first Christians were communists who did not shave. You're a capitalist (or support a capitalistic party) and I am sure your husband probably shaves or has shaved or at least doesn't mind shaving. Even though the bible says he should. Also I have a strong premonition you don't cover your head while praying, which is another biblical requirement even for Christians.
Communism has become synonymous with anti-christianity after Marx, Stalin, Mao and their ilk. Shaving has become normal and expected of good Christian men because the culture of our day says that is what decent men should do.

Of course you do... but the facts listed still remain - and I still believe that deep down, every genuine Christian knows what is moral & modest. People embrace rebellion without recognizing it as such.

And I think you do. I just think you fail to realize the factors at play.

 

[LJSGM]

What is the motive or purpose to a woman going topless?

I know that women sometimes expose the breast to breastfeed and that has a purpose.