Topless Beaches

[Blackmarch]

Excellent point. Some cultures view naked female breasts as indecent, others do not, and the Bible doesn't talk about breasts specifically.

It also did not state that they were uncovered either

 

[Natman]

It also did not state that they were uncovered either

Well we know for sure that they were uncovered in the Genesys account as well as in the Song of Solomon. As it was the common practice for the Egyptians to keep their slaves naked, they were probably uncovered before the Exodus and unfortunately while the Hebrews were dancing naked before the golden calf, just before Moses made his return from the mountain.

Son-cerely,
Nate

 

[Blackmarch]

Well we know for sure that they were uncovered in the Genesys account as well as in the Song of Solomon. As it was the common practice for the Egyptians to keep their slaves naked, they were probably uncovered before the Exodus and unfortunately while the Hebrews were dancing naked before the golden calf, just before Moses made his return from the mountain.

Son-cerely,
Nate

Yep they were naked before they were kicked out, What we were talking about was when God made them coats (as in how much were they covered with the coats. and was there anything beyond it just being protection from the elements)
There was very likely that the hebrews got naked when they were dancing before the calf (probably more than that too), Pehaps another reason god had to be angry with them...
As for them being egyption slaves not being clothed, is probably more on the part that the egyptians did not provide them with clothes- So those that could get material and also knew how to make clothes probably had clothes. While those who could not or did not have acces to such, were naked (perhaps that is one reason among others God was not pleased with the egyptians). 2nd point on that; if you're forced to be naked, was it by your choice? If it wasn't your choice and you had no say in the matter, How just would God be in condemning/holding you responsible you for that?

 

[Natman]

Yep they were naked before they were kicked out, What we were talking about was when God made them coats (as in how much were they covered with the coats. and was there anything beyond it just being protection from the elements)
There was very likely that the hebrews got naked when they were dancing before the calf (probably more than that too), Pehaps another reason god had to be angry with them...
As for them being egyption slaves not being clothed, is probably more on the part that the egyptians did not provide them with clothes- So those that could get material and also knew how to make clothes probably had clothes. While those who could not or did not have acces to such, were naked (perhaps that is one reason among others God was not pleased with the egyptians). 2nd point on that; if you're forced to be naked, was it by your choice? If it wasn't your choice and you had no say in the matter, How just would God be in condemning/holding you responsible you for that?

The Egyptians, like many capturing nations of the time, kept their slaves naked to enforce submission. It is far more difficult to be dishonest or to hide your emotions or, even more important, weapons when you're naked.

I do not believe that God condemned the Hebrews for being naked while in captivity, but it was another story when they acted like heathens in honor of the golden calf.

Also, I don't think that God was as hard on the Egyptians for stripping the Hebrews, as was the custom of the day, as He was for them worshipping other gods and not accepting the one true God of Moses.

Son-cerely,
Nate

 

[plmarquette]

These are all good and fine, but we aren't talking about "nakedness" here, this thread is discussing whether or not women should be permitted to go topless either on beaches or in public. Outside of the US and the Arab nations, most of the world does not regard exposed female breasts as "nakedness."

If you are saying that women going topless is "nakedness" then what about men. Should they permitted to go topless? Under your definition does that also represent "nakedness?"

this is what the bible dictionary says ....

A-1AdjectiveStrong's Number: 1131Greek: gumnos
signifies (a) "unclothed," Mar 14:52; in Mat 14:51 it is used as a noun ("his" and "body" being italicized); (b) "scantily or poorly clad," Mat 25:36,38,43,44; Act 19:16 (with torn garments); Jam 2:15; (c) "clad in the undergarment only" (the outer being laid aside), Jhn 21:7 (see CLOTHING); (d) metaphorically, (1) of "a bare seed," 1Cr 15:37; (2) of "the soul without the body," 2Cr 5:3; (3) of "things exposed to the all-seeing eye of God," Hbr 4:13; (4) of "the carnal condition of a local church," Rev 3:17; (5) of "the similar state of an individual," Rev 16:15; (b) of "the desolation of religious Babylon," Rev 17:16.

B-1VerbStrong's Number: 1130Greek: gumniteuo

"to be naked or scantily clad" (akin to A), is used in 1Cr 4:11. In the Koine writings (see Preface to Vol. 1) it is used of being light-armed.

C-1NounStrong's Number: 1132Greek: gumnotes

"nakedness" (akin to A), is used (a) of "want of sufficient clothing," Rom 8:35; 2Cr 11:27; (b) metaphorically, of "the nakedness of the body," said of the condition of a local church, Rev 3:18.

this is what Jesus said ... lustful looks = sin
Mat 5:27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart

 

[Natman]

this is what Jesus said ... lustful looks = sin
Mat 5:27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart

"Lust" occurs whether we or our subject are clothed or not.

Based on reports provided in the thread on "Nudism", societies that are more comfortable with nakedness have far fewer problems with lust and sexual deviancy than do societies that try to cover their bodies mostly or completely.

It was interesting to note that several of the "fundamentlists" that flew planes into the twin towers on September 11th spent the night before in strip bars, and that the western countries that opress nudity the most (America is at the top of the list), are the ones with the biggest pornography market (America again).

The point is to teach us to respect other peoples bodies for what they are... temples for the Holy Spirit, created by God naked and unashamed, regardless of whether they are draped in fabric or not.

Son-cerely,
Nate

 

[The Bellman]

"Lust" occurs whether we or our subject are clothed or not.

Based on reports provided in the thread on "Nudism", societies that are more comfortable with nakedness have far fewer problems with lust and sexual deviancy than do societies that try to cover their bodies mostly or completely.

It was interesting to note that several of the "fundamentlists" that flew planes into the twin towers on September 11th spent the night before in strip bars, and that the western countries that opress nudity the most (America is at the top of the list), are the ones with the biggest pornography market (America again).

The point is to teach us to respect other peoples bodies for what they are... temples for the Holy Spirit, created by God naked and unashamed, regardless of whether they are draped in fabric or not.

Son-cerely,
Nate

I believe that the above supports the point that many have made in this thread - nudity, per se, is arousing/lust causing only because it is so uncommon in our culture. Where it is hidden, the human body is seen as something 'rude' - as witness the prevalence of pornography in cultures where it is hidden. In cultures where nudity accepted and unremarked upon, it is not viewed as sexual at all.

 

[Annabel Lee]

I hope you don't have any sons that will try that. Breast-feeding their children, I mean...

Ha ha! I probably should have mentioned that I had three daughters.

 

[Archivist]

Blackmarch and Plmarquette,

You have both posted without answering questions posed in the original post. We are not talking about nudity here, we are talking specifically about topless beaches.

If you are saying that women should not have the right to go topless on a beach (or, for that matter, anywhere else a man can currently go topless) then what is your position on topless men?

 

[Johnnz]

I have posted most of this information on another thread. It is relevant here, in light of previous comments. These verses are often misused to include much more than wrongful desire by some christians. Jesus was not condemning all our sexual responses, but deliberate,wrong ones.


Matt 5:27-30 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Jesus had as the background to these verses the religious leaders who made a great ado about external holiness - rules, traditions, customs etc. Some of them had a pretty lax attitude to marriage. For very little reason they could see another woman, find her attractive and imemdiately want to marry her. They then just divorced their current wife. This laxness towards marriage violated God's standards. That is what Jesus meant when he spoke about lusting - it means lusting in order to have sex with her, not just finding a woman attractive.

Jesus attacked their outward claim of holiness when they were being so dismissive of the real principles of God. He then spoke with real irony. What he was in effect saying was "If holiness is an outward matter why don't you really show how holy you are by cutting off your hands and gouging out your eyes. Then, you could not possibly sin! You could neither see nor do anything about being immoral!

Jesus identified holiness as in inner attitude, something that comes from the heart. That is where some Christians, and many religions too are in error. They believe that just reducing the source of temptation will result in inner purity. Jesus said that real purity is an inner condition, in which evil finds no home. Of course, that does not give us license to do what we want, but we do need to focus on where it all begins.

John
NZ

 

[Isis-Astoroth]

Concerning Egypt, young, female slaves were generally naked, but you have to remember that nakedness was a part of Egyptian society and not necessarily so that the person became an object of lust or desire. Egypt is a horribly hot place, being partly or completely naked was in some cases for comfort.

 

[JaneKaty13]

Yuck! Last weekend I was at Baker Beach with my little brother and his friend. We were wading in the water and we accidently walked onto the nude part of the beach. It was totally weird! I thought it was really nasty that people would want strangers to look at their private parts like that. I don't even think anyone's seen me naked in my life except for my parents, my brothers, and my best friend since once we went to a spa and had mudbaths.

Well anyway, I didn't want my 11 year old brother and his friend looking at naked people. This one couple was even kissing and they were naked. That's like live porn. Like if I took them to a stripper club or something. I kept getting scared that some naked person would come over and say hi. Or that I'd see someone I knew or something. If I saw somebody I knew, like a grownup, naked, I'd be totally scarred for life..

So anyway, I guess nude beaches are OK, but nobody should be able to just walk around naked in public. That reminds me of once when I went to Chinatown, some guy ran up to the cab I was in and he totally pantsed himself. He was a crazy guy. That was not a good experience. And to have naked people just walking around??? Every day? That would be so gross. Sorry if you dfon't agree, but if you like running around naked in public, join a nudist colony.

 

[The Bellman]

Yuck! Last weekend I was at Baker Beach with my little brother and his friend. We were wading in the water and we accidently walked onto the nude part of the beach. It was totally weird! I thought it was really nasty that people would want strangers to look at their private parts like that. I don't even think anyone's seen me naked in my life except for my parents, my brothers, and my best friend since once we went to a spa and had mudbaths.

What makes you think those who go naked want people to look at their private parts? When you go to the beach, I assume you wear a swimming costume, which displays your legs, your body - pretty much the same as if you were wearing just underwear. Do you want people to look at your legs, your belly? No - you wear what you wear for comfort, not because you want people to look at what you're exposing. Same with people who like to go nude. They go nude because it's comfortable for them, not because they want others to look at their private parts.

Well anyway, I didn't want my 11 year old brother and his friend looking at naked people.

Why not?

This one couple was even kissing and they were naked. That's like live porn. Like if I took them to a stripper club or something.

No, it's not. People kissing is not like live porn, whether they're naked or not.

I kept getting scared that some naked person would come over and say hi. Or that I'd see someone I knew or something. If I saw somebody I knew, like a grownup, naked, I'd be totally scarred for life.

And if that had happened, and you'd been embarassed or 'scarred for life', that would have been YOUR fault, not theirs.

So anyway, I guess nude beaches are OK, but nobody should be able to just walk around naked in public. That reminds me of once when I went to Chinatown, some guy ran up to the cab I was in and he totally pantsed himself. He was a crazy guy. That was not a good experience. And to have naked people just walking around??? Every day? That would be so gross. Sorry if you dfon't agree, but if you like running around naked in public, join a nudist colony.

So, basically, nobody should be allowed to walk around naked because you don't like it.

This is a standard response to this issue. 'I wouldn't like to see it, therefore it shouldn't be allowed.' I find such a position unreasonable in the extreme. Nobody is guaranteed the right to not be offended; there is nothing intrinsically offensive about the human body. If someone is offended when they see someone naked, that's THEIR problem, not the naked person's problem.

From the poster of this message's post, I conclude that the '13' in her name denotes her age. Assuming that that is true, look at her attitude...seeing someone else naked would be embarassing and possibly 'scarring for life'. Nobody outside her parents has ever seen her naked...the idea horrifies her. Compare that with a 13 year old who has been raised to not care much about nudity...she's not embarassed or scarred by seeing someone naked; she's not particularly concerned if someone sees her naked. Obviously, then, the 'wrong' doesn't lie with the nakedness at all - it lies with people's attitudes toward it. Again, if you're offended...that's YOUR problem. Don't penalise others because YOU have a problem.

 

[MaddyO3]

I agree that if we were naked around each other more often, it would become less "weird" and we'd get used to it. I don't think the amount of lust would increase all that much either. Someone earlier in the thread noted women's ankles. Who honestly thinks women should keep their ankles covered anymore? We're so used to seeing ankles that we don't think anything of it.

On the subject of lust again: A forbidden fruit is twice as sweet, correct? I would think that since we get used to seeing naked people, it wouldn't be as secretive, and thus we would be less curious about people's bodies.

 

[Sacrificial anode]

I agree that if we were naked around each other more often, it would become less "weird" and we'd get used to it. I don't think the amount of lust would increase all that much either. Someone earlier in the thread noted women's ankles. Who honestly thinks women should keep their ankles covered anymore? We're so used to seeing ankles that we don't think anything of it.

Right.

On the subject of lust again: A forbidden fruit is twice as sweet, correct? I would think that since we get used to seeing naked people, it wouldn't be as secretive, and thus we would be less curious about people's bodies.

Bingo. The teasing factor is what creates the allure.

 

[xr022kbKr02h]

At its October 2004 meeting the California Bar Association adopted a resolution calling for the repeal of state laws that prevent women from exposing their breasts at public beaches. The resolution was framed in terms of equal rights, since their are no laws prohibiting men from going topless in public.

if women call this unfair...why can they wear both skirts and pants in public but stare at men as if they are some pervert if they where skirts in the public?
not that i m trying to go against the women here...but some of them nvr think when they said that we men are unfair towards them...

 

[Sacrificial anode]

if women call this unfair...why can they wear both skirts and pants in public but stare at men as if they are some pervert if they where skirts in the public?
not that i m trying to go against the women here...but some of them nvr think when they said that we men are unfair towards them...

That's off-topic but a legitimate point. However, most Western men would be just as spooked if they saw another man in a dress.

 

[Buzz Dixon]

You mean a "dress" dress and not a kilt or a dakishi, right?

 

[Archivist]

The difference is that it is not illegal for a man to wear a dress, whereas in most places in America it is illegal for a woman to go topless either under state statute or local ordinance. New York state is a notable exception.

 

[xr022kbKr02h]

The difference is that it is not illegal for a man to wear a dress, whereas in most places in America it is illegal for a woman to go topless either under state statute or local ordinance. New York state is a notable exception.

...it is illegal for a man to touch a women without consent...but it is not at all illegal for a women to touch a man without consent ( i mean...it may be illegal, who will belive you when you says that a women molest you!)...
either way, i think th at the society is more unfair towards men than they do towards women...
am i off tracked?