Topic of Hell

[Imblessed]

Hi guys....just curious what your personal beliefs are on this subject. It's touchy and I'm hoping i don't start a fight....I trust everyone will treat eachother with respect.....

I've been having trouble imagining a real, physical firey hell since I've embraced the 5 points of Calvinism.

Does anyone else have issues with it? I know that I don't have any right to question God's "fairness" and "justness", but it's hard not to, when you believe in predestination. Even though I believe in original sin, and total depravity---the 'traditional' view of hell still seems somehow wrong.

"Wages of sin is death, but the believers shall inherit eternal life" This is highly paraphrased, but it gets to the gist of it. Isn't hell also eternal life? Albeit a horrible one?

Just some questions to get everyone started!

thanks!
windi

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Genesis 2:17
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Did Adam and Eve choke and die on the spot? No, they became our first parents. But something else happened. They were cursed for their sins and no longer had the close communion with God. So what is death? Those in Hell may be alive forever, but will they enjoy a restored relationship with God? If not, and if they are still under condemnation, what should be done with them?

Life and death in the Bible do not always mean the same thing as 98.6 and room temperature.

Hope this helps!

 

[Dmckay]

Hi guys....just curious what your personal beliefs are on this subject. It's touchy and I'm hoping i don't start a fight....I trust everyone will treat eachother with respect.....

I've been having trouble imagining a real, physical firey hell since I've embraced the 5 points of Calvinism.

Does anyone else have issues with it? I know that I don't have any right to question God's "fairness" and "justness", but it's hard not to, when you believe in predestination. Even though I believe in original sin, and total depravity---the 'traditional' view of hell still seems somehow wrong.

"Wages of sin is death, but the believers shall inherit eternal life" This is highly paraphrased, but it gets to the gist of it. Isn't hell also eternal life? Albeit a horrible one?

Just some questions to get everyone started!

thanks!
windi

May I suggest a book to you? It is a bit hard to find, but I just checked and Amazon has at least two copies of it available. "Eternal Retribution" by William Elbert Munsey—This is an older work by a man who was ahead of his time in his thinking and preaching of the Word of G-d. This is a collection of several sermons/Bible studies on the reason and need for the Lake of Fire and why it is not only Just, but Necessary. I don't know of too many who have ever read this work who haven't examined the Scriptures and come to the same conclusions.

 

[ClementofRome]

In light of the fact that Jesus often mentions "hell" in the same context in which he uses hyperbolic language, I too have difficulty with a literal "eternal hell fire."

Even the use of gehenna and the background for this is problematic for those outside of 1st century Jerusalem. And what of "hades"?

The OT certainly does not preach a literal "hell fire."

For me, the jury is still out.

Good question.

 

[Dmckay]

In light of the fact that Jesus often mentions "hell" in the same context in which he uses hyperbolic language, I too have difficulty with a literal "eternal hell fire."

Even the use of gehenna and the background for this is problematic for those outside of 1st century Jerusalem. And what of "hades"?

The OT certainly does not preach a literal "hell fire."

For me, the jury is still out.

Good question.

I would suggest the same read for you as well. Especially as you refer to yourself as a Whitefield Methodist. Here is some info on Munsey, the author—William Elbert Munsey
1833 - 1877

"Is eternal punishment a fact, and is it right? Our God is a consuming fire. The capacity and power to love show the capacity and the power to hate. Those who would say that anger and wrath are inconsistent with the character of God make God a cold and chilling abstraction, unable to love. If you want a God capable of love and infinite love, He must be capable of wrath and infinite wrath."

Methodism in early America was a great force for revival and righteousness. A roll call of some of its men is a roll call of giants for God—Asbury, Cartwright, Sam Jones being among them. Add to that list of Methodist worthies William Elbert Munsey.

 

[Imblessed]

Genesis 2:17
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Did Adam and Eve choke and die on the spot? No, they became our first parents. But something else happened. They were cursed for their sins and no longer had the close communion with God. So what is death? Those in Hell may be alive forever, but will they enjoy a restored relationship with God? If not, and if they are still under condemnation, what should be done with them?

Life and death in the Bible do not always mean the same thing as 98.6 and room temperature.

Hope this helps!

So those in heaven enjoy true, duofold life-- life after death and life with God, but those in hell, even though they are technically alive after death, are still "dead" because they are still separated from God?

which brings me to my other question. I've seen people here on CF fighting vehemenantly not over eternal hell, but whether God will be present in hell or not. Some say it's the very presense of God that will cause the wailing and knashing of teeth, while others insist that it is the very LACK of God that will do it.

thanks for the comments everyone....keep 'em coming.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

It is the presence of God's wrath upon their unrepentant sin minus His grace. That's how I perceive it. Also, fire is often used to carry out holy wrath and judgement in the OT. See Sodom for example. I don't know if a burnt offering could also be used this way, but there are other examples. Why was the sword the angel used to guard the tree of life one of fire? I'm not certain about every aspect, but I do believe that fire is used in the OT to show judgement. Whether or not it is shown to be an eternal judgement is open for debate, though.

 

[Dmckay]

We also have the use of the term, " a Cleansing fire" used repeatedly. And then there is the analogy of the refiner's fire which allow for the removal of impurity.

 

[Jon_]

We also have the use of the term, " a Cleansing fire" used repeatedly. And then there is the analogy of the refiner's fire which allow for the remocal of impurity.

Not to mention the burning off of the chaff in the parable of the tares. When you burn of tares they are completely vaporized--nothing remains (except ashes, but you get my meaning).

Before one can consider the nature of hell one has to consider the eternity of the soul. If you do not consider our souls to be eternal, then it's a very natural conclusion that hell will simply be the total, utter destruction of the reprobate. If you consider our souls eternal, then we have something altogether different.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Antman_05]

Hell is real wouldn't want to go there wouldn't want my friends and family to go there but its not my choice its God's. In fact i wouldn't want anyone to go there, Jesus spoke of it its spoken about in many parts of the bible so in other words Hell Bad i don't want anything to do with it. Alos yes Hell last forever the reason it isn't enternal life is because its enternal Death.

 

[Huguenot]

Hell is "a firery abode of eternal torment".

 

[Imblessed]

Not to mention the burning off of the chaff in the parable of the tares. When you burn of tares they are completely vaporized--nothing remains (except ashes, but you get my meaning).

Before one can consider the nature of hell one has to consider the eternity of the soul. If you do not consider our souls to be eternal, then it's a very natural conclusion that hell will simply be the total, utter destruction of the reprobate. If you consider our souls eternal, then we have something altogether different.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

exactly! But now we get to the real issue, I believe. The subject of soul/spirit. One and the same? or separate? I've heard compelling arguments for both sides of the issue.
Even those who believe the soul to be separate often point to the scripture "Do not be afraid of the one who can destroy your body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul" (paraphrased again, I don't have my bible handy)

Ahhh, so many sides of the story!

Interesting points all!

 

[frumanchu]

Imblessed, I can understand your confusion here. I believe that the fire and burning spoken of regarding hell is most often figurative, although some of it may indeed be literal. I've seen a decent case made by both Calvinists (Sproul) and non-Calvinists (see Lee Strobel's book, The Case for Faith) that the wording is figurative and that it represents the intensity of the misery of those who have been cut off for all eternity from the presence of God.

I agree, many good points made in this thread so far. Whether the fire is figurative or literal, I'm pretty sure none of us want to find out first hand

 

[Jon_]

exactly! But now we get to the real issue, I believe. The subject of soul/spirit. One and the same? or separate? I've heard compelling arguments for both sides of the issue.
Even those who believe the soul to be separate often point to the scripture "Do not be afraid of the one who can destroy your body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul" (paraphrased again, I don't have my bible handy)

Ahhh, so many sides of the story!

Interesting points all!

The soul/spirit (the Greek word for our supernatural soul is psyche, so I'll use that) is definitely separate from our bodies. That does not necessarily mean that they can be separated, though. For instance, your head is a separate part of your body from, say, your leg. But you cannot cut off your head and live (but you can live without your leg... not the best example). My point is that the psyche is a vital and necessary component of our existence. You might even say that it is our true existence.

The Bible talks about us being given new, heavenly bodies when we are resurrected. That leads us to believe that these fleshly bodies are only temporary compartments.

The psyche itself, I genuinely believe the Scripture teaches, has already been perfected in the elect. In the Son's prayer to the Father he says that we are one with him as he is with the Father. Obviously this must mean our psyche because our bodies are definitely separate from God. In order for us to be in union with God in spirit, we would have to be perfect. God could not assimiliate an evil psyche into himself. That would result in him taking on a sinful pscyhe, which would render him unrighteous.

My thought is that after our death, we are resurrected and our psyche are given new, heavenly bodies, probably something like that of the angels if we become wholly spiritual beings, or probably something like Adam and Eve if we remain human. I've heard lots of debate both ways about whether or not we will ever actually become spirit-beings or remain human-beings. I lean toward spirit, but that's me. The Bible is remarkably and blessedly silent on most of it, so we shouldn't dwell on it much.

All of the language used in addressing the longevity of the pscyhe in the Bible seems to paint it "forever" and "eternal." Unless someone can give good reason why we should interpret that language as figurative for "long time," I don't think it's right to regard those passages as anything but literal.

I am of the persuasion that the psyche of the elect are wisked off to heaven and ushered into God's presence for eternity. I further think that the psyche of the reprobate will be left in the pit, apart from God for eternity. The actual phenomenon of this is something we cannot comprehend. Essentially, we talking about an eternity of being separated from the one that you were created for. It is his very common grace and conviction of conscience that gives our lives any meaning whatsoever on earth. I cannot even fathom the existensial nightmare that it would be for this grace and purpose to be removed. Eternal torment in the sense of meaninglessness? Is hell the vanity of the Preacher in Ecclesiates taken to the absolute extreme ?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Imblessed]

Imblessed, I can understand your confusion here. I believe that the fire and burning spoken of regarding hell is most often figurative, although some of it may indeed be literal. I've seen a decent case made by both Calvinists (Sproul) and non-Calvinists (see Lee Strobel's book, The Case for Faith) that the wording is figurative and that it represents the intensity of the misery of those who have been cut off for all eternity from the presence of God.

I agree, many good points made in this thread so far. Whether the fire is figurative or literal, I'm pretty sure none of us want to find out first hand

I wonder if we will ever truly know though? I mean, as some athiests and universalists have pointed out--how could we be truly happy in heaven if we know what happened to, say, our mother or father that wasn't saved? It makes one think, that's for sure.

I think C.S. Lewis' book about hell was extremely interesting---his view is that mankind is separated from God, including His graces. I think everyone here would agree that besides the very act of existance, God gives a type of grace to everyone, regardless of their beliefs. The sun shines on the good and bad, etc etc. But those who die in disbelief are cut off from that also. It's a very interesting book. I always forget the name of it though....

It's not that I disbelieve in hell itself, more the "eternalness" of it, and type--literal fire, etc. And it's more that I'm having trouble coming to terms with it....

 

[Dmckay]

I wonder if we will ever truly know though? I mean, as some athiests and universalists have pointed out--how could we be truly happy in heaven if we know what happened to, say, our mother or father that wasn't saved? It makes one think, that's for sure.

I think C.S. Lewis' book about hell was extremely interesting---his view is that mankind is separated from God, including His graces. I think everyone here would agree that besides the very act of existance, God gives a type of grace to everyone, regardless of their beliefs. The sun shines on the good and bad, etc etc. But those who die in disbelief are cut off from that also. It's a very interesting book. I always forget the name of it though....

It's not that I disbelieve in hell itself, more the "eternalness" of it, and type--literal fire, etc. And it's more that I'm having trouble coming to terms with it....

Perhaps included in the phrase, "He shall wipe away all tears" is the removal of those memories and "injuries" that would be the cause of those tears. I know that this is really reading between the lines, but it would be a gracious way to eliminate the grief.

 

[Imblessed]

The soul/spirit (the Greek word for our supernatural soul is psyche, so I'll use that) is definitely separate from our bodies. That does not necessarily mean that they can be separated, though. For instance, your head is a separate part of your body from, say, your leg. But you cannot cut off your head and live (but you can live without your leg... not the best example). My point is that the psyche is a vital and necessary component of our existence. You might even say that it is our true existence.

so you believe the soul/spirit is the same? Not two separate things? I agree that they are separate from our bodies but cannot be separated(at least in this life, without the consequence of death)

The Bible talks about us being given new, heavenly bodies when we are resurrected. That leads us to believe that these fleshly bodies are only temporary compartments.

I agree

The psyche itself, I genuinely believe the Scripture teaches, has already been perfected in the elect. In the Son's prayer to the Father he says that we are one with him as he is with the Father. Obviously this must mean our psyche because our bodies are definitely separate from God. In order for us to be in union with God in spirit, we would have to be perfect. God could not assimiliate an evil psyche into himself. That would result in him taking on a sinful pscyhe, which would render him unrighteous.

Interesting. I've never really thought about it that way!

My thought is that after our death, we are resurrected and our psyche are given new, heavenly bodies, probably something like that of the angels if we become wholly spiritual beings, or probably something like Adam and Eve if we remain human. I've heard lots of debate both ways about whether or not we will ever actually become spirit-beings or remain human-beings. I lean toward spirit, but that's me.

I've swung both ways, personally. When I was almost preterist I was definately of the opinion that it was spirit-beings; but the example of Jesus right after his ressurection before his ascension leads me to believe it will be closer to human-like--although I have trouble picturing it.

The Bible is remarkably and blessedly silent on most of it, so we shouldn't dwell on it much.

I agree totally, but it's hard not to speculate isn't it?

All of the language used in addressing the longevity of the pscyhe in the Bible seems to paint it "forever" and "eternal." Unless someone can give good reason why we should interpret that language as figurative for "long time," I don't think it's right to regard those passages as anything but literal.

That's where the issure of whether the spirit and the soul are two different things or 2 words for one thing come into play. If that could be settled definatively, it would help ALOT!

I am of the persuasion that the psyche of the elect are wisked off to heaven and ushered into God's presence for eternity. I further think that the psyche of the reprobate will be left in the pit, apart from God for eternity.

As an aside, do you think this will happen emmediately upon death? I've always been of the belief of a type of soul-sleep until the ressurection...although someone told me that belief was heresy and a type of blasphemy. I'd come to that conclusion totally on my own before I ever actually started studying the issue.....

The actual phenomenon of this is something we cannot comprehend. Essentially, we talking about an eternity of being separated from the one that you were created for. It is his very common grace and conviction of conscience that gives our lives any meaning whatsoever on earth. I cannot even fathom the existensial nightmare that it would be for this grace and purpose to be removed. Eternal torment in the sense of meaninglessness? Is hell the vanity of the Preacher in Ecclesiates taken to the absolute extreme ?

That is very very interesting. C.S. Lewis I believe comes to a very similar thought in that one book of his I can never remember the name of. The one he wrote about the guy who dreamed about hell. Hell was like earth, but without God, and the people in it didn't really realize they were there. I mean they knew they were dead on some level, but they were so completely consumed with themselves they couldn't even understand that they could leave that place for something better. It was a bizarre book, but very interesting.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

I was contemplating the eternal joys of the reward of living in the presence of God the other day, and as I did so, my focus shifted to a rather unusual thought. This thought is one that may seem perfectly obvious, but as you unpack the idea, it becomes more profound. This concept is the complete and utter lack of suggestion boxes in Heaven.

I am reminded of a comic I saw in the newspaper. I believe it was in “The Far Side,” an all-time favorite of mine. In the picture, we were given a toned-down representation of Hell. As the people were suffering through their existence in the total withdrawal of God’s graces, they would pass by a box affixed to the wall of the cavern. On the front of the box was the word, “SUGGESTIONS.” This was the punchline of the joke. I suppose one could say that there are no suggestion forms or writing utensils in Hell. Perhaps the forms would be dumped into the inferno as fuel. I don’t know. The fact remains that in Hell, there is no room for a suggestion to improve the livelihood of those in eternal torment.

Now I’m sure the inhabitants of Hell will have a wide variety of complaints, and I’m sure they could come up with more than a few suggestions to place into a box. In a place completely devoid of comfort on any level, the suggestion box would quickly overflow. It would all be to no avail, though, for the justice of God demands a punishment suitable to the crime. Hell is entirely just, based on our absolute responsibility to obey the Lord and the immeasurable value of Him. Any suggestions to reduce a portion of suffering would be the equivalent of asking God to deny a portion of His justice.

There is no suggestion box to be found in Heaven, either. The redeemed sheep of God will live out the rest of eternity in the presence and glory of God. There will be no end to the joys He will bestow upon us, and the perfection of our joy will be complete the entire time, never wavering in either direction. Our worship will be perfect, as it overflows into every aspect of our lives forever and our deepest wants and needs will continually be fulfilled. To assume that there would be room for improvement, or even the suggestion for improvement, implies the possibility for improvement. Put in another way, a suggestion box assumes incomplete contentedness. A state of incomplete contentedness is not God’s will for the eternity of His adopted sons. To assume that anything could be improved upon in Heaven is an affront to the Lord’s loving kindness.

So far, I have mentioned two of the attributes of God. His justice and His loving kindness. To take it a step further, I believe a better description of these traits than “attributes” is “perfections.” Humans have the same attributes as God in varying degrees, but He has perfections where we can only claim attributes, as we are made in the image and likeness of God. Our fallen will is imperfect, His will is perfect. We can no more suggest a change in one extreme than the other. To do so would risk the declaration that we have ideas superior to God.

What about life in this age, though? Is it to us to make requests that things work out in ways that we believe will benefit us to the greatest degree, or is it best to submit our supplications in the spirit that it is His will that must stand? I believe prayer honors God the most when we thank God that all things work together for our good and trust Him in this. We can pray that He provide us the grace to accept His will, regardless of whether it matches our desire, but to say that His will for us is imperfect is disrespectful. For His will to stand, our lives may not always be comfortable, but we can trust the author that needs no editor, for He has already written the story of creation and redemption. He does not need our suggestion to better His will for our lives. As if He should do things my way! He requires only that we trust and obey His perfect will.

 

[Jon_]

This concept is the complete and utter lack of suggestion boxes in Heaven.

What a great way of putting it. It's so simple, but so encompassing all at once. I like it.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Imblessed]

Coffeeswirls,

Very good; wonderful concept!

And it was the Far Side--which is also one of my all-time favorite cartoons. (and Calvin and Hobbes. )