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Top Ten Problems with Darwinian Evolution

Split Rock

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In the sense that it seems to be alive, yes. It produces energy. Does a puppet appear to be alive? yes. The puppeteer gives the puppet life.
It may appear to be alive, but it most certainly is not alive.

How would you define yourself? Are you alive? Or are you merely an organic compound going through the motions of life? Feeding yourself. Resting. Moving about. Chemical reactions in your brain that seem like consciousness and self awareness?
Yes, I am alive, thank you.

What I am getting at is that life is separate from the creation. (That is why I said "and gave it life". A conjunction joins parts of a sentence.) The creation (makeup) of biological creatures is analogous of the way humans create things. Nature does not create things.
This sounds like the old discarded idea of "vitalism." It was once thought by biologists that there was a "vital essence" that made organisms alive, that separated then from inatimate objects. After it was shown that biochemicals, such as urea, could be made non-enzymatically in a test tube, the idea was dropped.

What do you base the assertion that "life is separate from the creation" on? Does an engineer breath into a car to suddenly give it "life?' Maybe you are thinking of Frankenstein, electricuting a sewed together corpse to "give it life?" That is a work of fiction, you know...
 
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RedRover

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Maybe you are thinking of Frankenstein, electricuting a sewed together corpse to "give it life?" That is a work of fiction, you know...
They do use electric shocks to get a heart beating again to restore life. They do sow people back together again if they have lost a limb. Frankenstein is starting to become more fact then fiction.
 
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bhsmte

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They do use electric shocks to get a heart beating again to restore life. They do sow people back together again if they have lost a limb. Frankenstein is starting to become more fact then fiction.

You don't display a very good knowledge of medicine.

When they start taking dead bodies and transplanting dead brains in them and bringing them back to life, let me know.
 
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Skaloop

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They do use electric shocks to get a heart beating again to restore life.

They use electric shocks to get a heart beating again. End of sentence. It's not done to restore life because life does not end with the stopping of one's heart.

They do sow people back together again if they have lost a limb. Frankenstein is starting to become more fact then fiction.

Yes, they sew live people back together using their own limbs. They don't use a variety of dead parts from a variety of dead people
 
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Loudmouth

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They do use electric shocks to get a heart beating again to restore life. They do sow people back together again if they have lost a limb. Frankenstein is starting to become more fact then fiction.


The electrical shock stimulates the heart's neural pathways to restore a normal heart beat. The electrical shock does not supply "life" that the body was missing. Also, if you don't get the heart started within a set amount of time the damage done to the body due to oxygen starvation is not repairable. No amount of shock is going to fix dead brain cells.
 
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Naraoia

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I know it would be mere speculation on your part, but if "fish" is a kind, and Noah had the basic "fish" kind on his ark, what do you think it looked like? Which extant fish would you say it most closely resembled? Was it bony or cartilaginous? Did it have a jaw? What was it's basic body plan?
Do you think this might be the first time Dragon hears of jawless fish?

Because the oldest fossils or newest fossils in every strata is fully formed, from the beginning of the strata to its end.
What do you mean "fully formed"? Where does evolutionary theory predict anything that isn't?

The beginning of the next strata is fully formed, from its beginning to its end. No exception ever noted.
I have no idea what you're talking about.

There was no transition from RNA to DNA, that's why it's still debated.
No. It's still debated because the origin of DNA genomes happened a long time ago, only left circumstantial evidence, and consequently it's very hard to figure out what happened and how. We'll probably never know for sure how.

Because it has never been observed, so has no basis in factual evidence at all, merely someone's belief of what occurred, the same thing you disparage about religion is it not? What, not going to hold your evolution to the same factual basis you hold religion to?
When was the last time I disparaged anything about religion? Are you sure you are talking to me? I demand evidence for scientific claims. I don't care what god you believe on what basis, but if you make a statement about the material world, you'd better be prepared to back it up.

Also: you need to learn what a "factual basis" is. Hint: directly witnessing an event is not required to infer that event occurred.

There is no proof any simple form of life evolved into more complex. As a matter of fact every scientific observation of existing life shows it merely replicates itself, with basic changes in the order of code, leading to appearance changes and nothing more.
Meaningless statements and nothing more. Where does an "appearance change" end and an increase in complexity begin? Is multicellularity one?

And no, chemicals combining into larger chemicals does not constitute proof that life itself has ever done this. All biological life replicates, one and all, it does not form from scratch every time. Chemicals once they bond into certain compounds, do not replicate, never did.
Except they do. Not to mention that life is made of chemicals. The RNA that makes your precious proteins is chemically no different from the RNA synthesised in a lab.

They simply add what exists to their chemical bonds.
I'm trying and failing to find meaning in this sentence.

Like I said, when you get life from dirt, let me know. I don't even ask that you merely use gasses and liquids, after all, we are formed from the dust of the earth, so have at it.
Define life, please. I'm asking this seriously.

I am going to have to agree here that there is some evidence of common descent among species. But that, in itself, is not evidence for evolution nor for how life got here and achieved complexity in the first place.

Common design from an ID can also cause similar patterns in unrelated systems.
Can. But it by no means has to. In contrast, there is only one pattern classical evolution (not counting horizontal gene transfer and hybrid speciation) can cause, and it's a nested hierarchy.

If life did not fit into a nested hierarchy (within a margin of error, as no estimate of relationships is perfect), the simple branching model of common descent would be falsified. In fact, as you rightly point out, it is a very difficult concept to apply to prokaryotes, which swap genes all over the place.

(And then there are viruses, which may not fit into the classification of cellular life forms at all. I don't know a whole lot about viral phylogenetics, but my impression is that they're really... different.)

Is there a pattern that would falsify ID?


"The phylogenetic trees for the gene families are not consistently nested, as would be expected in the case of allo-tetraploidy or two widely spaced auto-tetraploidy events. Finally, tree topologies of genes within paralogy blocks are not always congruent, indicating that the process of gene loss and rediploidization spanned the duplication events."

(Paramvir Dehal, Jeffrey L. Boore, "Two Rounds of Whole Genome Duplication in the Ancestral Vertebrate," PLoS Biology, Vol. 3(10):1700-1708 (October 2005).)
Do you understand this paragraph?

Here, the authors are discussing the nature of the vertebrate genome duplications. (The strongest evidence for the fact of the two duplications is the way whole blocks of related genes are often present in four copies in tetrapod genomes. In fact, when the Florida lancelet genome was published, those who worked on it found that an awful lot of such blocks existed in single copies of this distant relative of ours.)

They are giving reasons why they think the two events were close in time rather than far apart. It's a well-known problem in phylogenetics that closely spaced branching events can make correct trees difficult to reconstruct. It's because they leave very little time for distinguishing characters to evolve on either branch before they split again. Let's take this hypothetical tree of four paralogous genes, where coloured blobs represent mutations:

signalnoise.jpg


The red mutations are the only data that can correctly group A with B. Likewise for the blue dots and C and D. Every other blob in this diagram is noise. Noise can make spurious connections. In the above case, A split from B very soon after both split from C and D. There is much more noise than signal, and it's likely that a treebuilding method would find the wrong tree or no tree at all for these four genes.

(Incidentally, this is one of the problems plagueing the study of deep animal phylogeny.)
 
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Justatruthseeker

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They use electric shocks to get a heart beating again. End of sentence. It's not done to restore life because life does not end with the stopping of one's heart.

Exactly, it stops when your brain quits working. Without the brain your body might lie there in a bed while they artificially keep your body alive, but it won't do it on its own without the brain. Got to have that electrical spark. That soul, that part of God that is in everything and works through everything. Without the brain working the body just becomes what it is made of, dust.



Yes, they sew live people back together using their own limbs. They don't use a variety of dead parts from a variety of dead people

That's what kills me about evolutionists. They want me to believe that two humans to start it all is genetically impossible. But then isn't it one animal out of the millions that evolves form, and then spreads that genetic makeup to the next generation through breeding, which would be a localized event, not worldwide? Or are they asking me to believe that when one evolves, all the rest worldwide spontaneously follow that same evolutionary path so they have a large enough genetic pool?
 
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Skaloop

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Exactly, it stops when your brain quits working. Without the brain your body might lie there in a bed while they artificially keep your body alive, but it won't do it on its own without the brain. Got to have that electrical spark. That soul, that part of God that is in everything and works through everything. Without the brain working the body just becomes what it is made of, dust.

So the brain is the soul?

That's what kills me about evolutionists. They want me to believe that two humans to start it all is genetically impossible. But then isn't it one animal out of the millions that evolves form, and then spreads that genetic makeup to the next generation through breeding, which would be a localized event, not worldwide? Or are they asking me to believe that when one evolves, all the rest worldwide spontaneously follow that same evolutionary path so they have a large enough genetic pool?

None of that is anything that any evolutionist says, so I don't have a response to that straw man except to say that the answer to both of your questions is no.
 
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bhsmte

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Exactly, it stops when your brain quits working. Without the brain your body might lie there in a bed while they artificially keep your body alive, but it won't do it on its own without the brain. Got to have that electrical spark. That soul, that part of God that is in everything and works through everything. Without the brain working the body just becomes what it is made of, dust.





That's what kills me about evolutionists. They want me to believe that two humans to start it all is genetically impossible. But then isn't it one animal out of the millions that evolves form, and then spreads that genetic makeup to the next generation through breeding, which would be a localized event, not worldwide? Or are they asking me to believe that when one evolves, all the rest worldwide spontaneously follow that same evolutionary path so they have a large enough genetic pool?

The heart will continue to beat all on its own without brain activity, because it creates it's own electrical impulses. The reason for shocking, is to either restore the heart beat back to a normal sinus rhythm or to get it started again from a cardiac arrest.
 
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RedRover

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You don't display a very good knowledge of medicine.

When they start taking dead bodies and transplanting dead brains in them and bringing them back to life, let me know.
It all depends on what you mean by dead. In general if the heart stops then there is only a 10% chance that the person can be revived. So were those 10% dead and brought back to life or were they never dead in the first place? It use to be if you cut off someones head no one recovered. Now they can sow the head back on again. There are some videos on youtube of head transplants with monkeys.
 
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Skaloop

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RedRover said:
It all depends on what you mean by dead. In general if the heart stops then there is only a 10% chance that the person can be revived. So were those 10% dead and brought back to life or were they never dead in the first place? It use to be if you cut off someones head no one recovered. Now they can sow the head back on again. There are some videos on youtube of head transplants with monkeys.

Videos on Youtube aren't all that reliable. Got any other info to an actual article or news story about this head transplant thing?
 
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bhsmte

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It all depends on what you mean by dead. In general if the heart stops then there is only a 10% chance that the person can be revived. So were those 10% dead and brought back to life or were they never dead in the first place? It use to be if you cut off someones head no one recovered. Now they can sow the head back on again. There are some videos on youtube of head transplants with monkeys.

True death is when the tissue dies. At that point, it ain't coming back anytime soon.

Hearts can stop for minutes and be restored because the tissue has yet to die and it responds occasionally to electric shock etc.

Sewing a head back on and having everything work, are two different things. We have yet to figure out a way to repair a severed spinal cord, but that day may come with modern medical science.
 
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RedRover

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We have yet to figure out a way to repair a severed spinal cord, but that day may come with modern medical science.
Some of the stem cell research people claim they can ‘bridge the gap’. For me I will believe it when you convince the insurance company to pay for it.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"In a September study published in the journal CELL (Cell - Long-Distance Growth and Connectivity of Neural Stem Cells after Severe Spinal Cord Injury), paralyzed rats transplanted with NSI-566 stem cells recovered significant locomotor function, regaining movement in all lower extremity joints. Additionally, the transplanted neural stem cells turned into neurons which grew multiple axons. These axons extended over 17 spinal segments above and below the point of severance, where made reciprocal synaptic connectivity with the host spinal cord neurons, improving electrophysiological and functional outcome.[/FONT]"
 
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Skaloop

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With no oxygen, any living cell in the body dies, period.

I agree, but could there not also potentially be a period between when the cells run out of oxygen and stop having metabolic function, and actually die in the irrevocable sense? Surely the cell doesn't start breaking down immediately...

And perhaps a future method of restoring metabolic function could be discovered that could be applied during that short period. Like a "cortical stimulator" from Star Trek. Of course, it would have to provide oxygen as well, but that's for future people to figure out.
 
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gluadys

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That's what kills me about evolutionists. They want me to believe that two humans to start it all is genetically impossible. But then isn't it one animal out of the millions that evolves form, and then spreads that genetic makeup to the next generation through breeding, which would be a localized event, not worldwide? Or are they asking me to believe that when one evolves, all the rest worldwide spontaneously follow that same evolutionary path so they have a large enough genetic pool?


Seems to me you are talking about two entirely different things.

What do you mean by "start it all"? What is the "it"?

Yes, a mutation is a very localized event. If it is a point mutation it occurs in one base nucleotide in one gene on one chromosome in one cell in one body. And only if it is in a germ cell does it have a chance of being passed into another body.

Even if the mutation is a larger event such as a duplication, it still occurs in one cell in one body. Even the duplication of a whole genome originally occurs in one cell in one body.

And you have certainly never heard from any scientist that the same mutation occurs simultaneously in the bodies of all other members of the population world wide--or even locally. That is why it takes time for a mutation to get established as one of the alleles in a gene pool. It takes reproductive time, often quite a few generations worth, before it gets common enough to be a permanent part of the gene pool.

And that is why the current variability in human genes cannot take their origin from either a recent human couple or even a recent family group of 8.
 
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RedRover

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With no oxygen, any living cell in the body dies, period.
Your not keeping up with the latest research on resuscitation medicine. The cell does not die from lack of oxygen, they suffer from reperfusion injury. That is why they pack a patient in ice during surgery (therapeutic hypothermia), so they can slow down the metabolic rate.

"Reperfusion injury is the tissue damage caused when blood supply returns to the tissue after a period of ischemia or lack of oxygen. The absence of oxygen and nutrients from blood during the ischemic period creates a condition in which the restoration of circulation results in inflammation and oxidative damage through the induction of oxidative stress rather than restoration of normal function." wiki




 
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bhsmte

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I agree, but could there not also potentially be a period between when the cells run out of oxygen and stop having metabolic function, and actually die in the irrevocable sense? Surely the cell doesn't start breaking down immediately...

And perhaps a future method of restoring metabolic function could be discovered that could be applied during that short period. Like a "cortical stimulator" from Star Trek. Of course, it would have to provide oxygen as well, but that's for future people to figure out.

If a cell has metabolic function, its not dead.
 
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bhsmte

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Your not keeping up with the latest research on resuscitation medicine. The cell does not die from lack of oxygen, they suffer from reperfusion injury. That is why they pack a patient in ice during surgery (therapeutic hypothermia), so they can slow down the metabolic rate.

"Reperfusion injury is the tissue damage caused when blood supply returns to the tissue after a period of ischemia or lack of oxygen. The absence of oxygen and nutrients from blood during the ischemic period creates a condition in which the restoration of circulation results in inflammation and oxidative damage through the induction of oxidative stress rather than restoration of normal function." wiki





What is the initiator of all this; no oxygen.

Icing a tissue slows metabolic rate, preserves the tissue from breakdown and also limits blood flow. Icing only works for a period of time, which is why transplants have to occur so quickly.
 
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