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Top reasons for deconversion and how to counteract them?

Halbhh

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Yes I agree most atheists that I talk too say that the reason that they left the faith was because they were tired of being judged by others. That has certainly bothered me for years because I try to avoid being that way but I feel that be trying to please others, I ignore God.
Who else has felt that ?
If you'd asked me about age 20 or so (long time ago now) why I was not attending, I would have said: "The people are too hypocritical and judgmental."
The thing is, that would not have been all of the people, but only some of them. If you asked me more, I would have pointed to only some being that way, or sometimes it felt more broad, but it wasn't everyone all the time. Another reason I would have pointed to is the very harmful wrongful idea many had that only their church denomination was saved. That clear wrong in and of itself, so central and important, seemed to suggest they were wrong about much more.
 
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Halbhh

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Unfortunately, those stats could be interpreted a number of different ways and, according to what was written in the report, some people could have answered in the affirmative to all of them.
Yup, many reasons, but also some that stand out as being an important reason (among however many, one of many, but important), and for more than just a few.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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What would be more than "a thousand band-aids"?

Essentially, Sean McDowell is saying that Christians of late haven't done a very good job in recognizing that there is a lot of social hurt and psychological pain, even accompanied by the onset of mental illness, largely manifesting among so many of us (whether Christian or not) in society and in the church. He goes on to say that evangelicals have especially been prone to treat every issue of 'sin' as a political one or as one that simply needs a few Bible verses thrown at it and the 'sinner' firmly put in his place (or her place).

All too sadly, offering a listening ear first, with either or both understanding and compassion and insight -- especially with those who are beginning to have serious doubts about the Christian faith -- often remains merely an option when engaging folks who are dealing with serious personal or psychological issues, and a listening, understanding, compassionate ear isn't even on the ministry menu at a number of churches ...
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Unfortunately, those stats could be interpreted a number of different ways and, according to what was written in the report, some people could have answered in the affirmative to all of them.

Actually, various stats reflecting the ongoing, changing and growing social relations in all of this have been studied for the last 15 years or so.

So, at least SOME of it is relevant, accurate, substantial and (unfortunately) true about the 'hows' and 'whys' by which a lot of people are leaving not only "church" but also the Christian faith.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Okay, but the statistics that we were given a few posts ago, the ones to which I was referring, appear not to be very precise.

Well, there are other places in which to research various states about the OP topic, so just because one secondary source provided wasn't expansive doesn't mean there aren't others elsewhere that are more comprehensive, substantive and professionally acquired and reported.

Still, I get what you're saying about not pointing the finger at the church too broadly. Some of this separation from the churches and from the faith is largely due to a kind of worldly brainwash that is transpiring through the ever-developing Zeitgeist that drives modern international politics. It's just that when Christian leaders in our churches DO mess up, that further complication doesn't help matters any.

Of course, I know you know this already. You may now sit back down in your choir seat, Albion. ;)
 
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Albion

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Well, there are other places in which to research various states about the OP topic, so just because one secondary source provided wasn't expansive doesn't mean there aren't others elsewhere that are more comprehensive, substantive and professionally acquired and reported.
I guess that's so, but I was replying to that one post, just as you responded to what I wrote in one of my posts. I have lots of others that you'd love, so should I be asking you to read them before commenting? ;)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I guess that's so, but I was replying to that one post, just as you responded to what I wrote in one of my posts. I have lots of others that you'd love, so should I be asking you to read them before commenting? ;)

Sure. You may. :rolleyes:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I guess that's so, but I was replying to that one post, just as you responded to what I wrote in one of my posts. I have lots of others that you'd love, so should I be asking you to read them before commenting? ;)

Actually, my apologies for that earlier post. Maybe I should have phrased it differently since my intention was to help out rather than to counter something you had said.

My point was to acknowledge that you were right, that the Church can't be blamed for every jot and tittle of the claims that come from the Left and Gone.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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  • What are the most common reasons that cause Christians to lose their faith and turn to atheism, agnosticism or skepticism?
  • Are these reasons only effective against young Christians, or are long-time committed Christians also vulnerable to have their faith "shaken" by these reasons? What about pastors, priests, evangelists, missionaries, etc.?
  • Lastly, what measures (if any) are Christian churches taking to counteract these reasons for deconversion? Do any Christian churches or organizations teach people how to have an unshakable faith, even in the face of the most challenging objections?
I think these are important questions to answer, especially with so many atheist activists spreading skepticism and atheism nowadays. Wikipedia has an informative list of atheist activists and educators. There are also the "Four Horsemen of the New Atheism", namely, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, and Sam Harris. In social media we also find lots of content producers who spread agnosticism, atheism and skeptical ways of thinking. For example, on YouTube I'm familiar with Genetically Modified Skeptic (458K subscribers), CosmicSkeptic (446K subscribers), The Atheist Experience (365K subscribers), Rationality Rules (296K subscribers), AronRa (263K subscribers) and Bart D. Ehrman (83K subscribers). Here is a list with the top 50 atheist YouTube channels.
The main reason why people "deconvert" is because they had no roots.

A rough time came, and they withered away, Jesus spoke about this in the parables.

How to counteract it is to focus more on people's individual relationship with God and how to develop the trust that is part of that.

A lot of churches bog people down with activities and hope the social binding will keep them coming to "this church" not understanding that this godless series of activities actually only engages the flesh and the instances of intrusive thoughts since the flesh keeps getting fed in a religious setting.

Another reason is, the scripture indicates that the number of people who actually get born again with the Holy Spirit is small, so that might be part of it too, only fix there is to pray, pray, and continue praying.
 
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jamiec

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  • What are the most common reasons that cause Christians to lose their faith and turn to atheism, agnosticism or skepticism?
  • Are these reasons only effective against young Christians, or are long-time committed Christians also vulnerable to have their faith "shaken" by these reasons? What about pastors, priests, evangelists, missionaries, etc.?
  • Lastly, what measures (if any) are Christian churches taking to counteract these reasons for deconversion? Do any Christian churches or organizations teach people how to have an unshakable faith, even in the face of the most challenging objections?
I think these are important questions to answer, especially with so many atheist activists spreading skepticism and atheism nowadays. Wikipedia has an informative list of atheist activists and educators. There are also the "Four Horsemen of the New Atheism", namely, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, and Sam Harris. In social media we also find lots of content producers who spread agnosticism, atheism and skeptical ways of thinking. For example, on YouTube I'm familiar with Genetically Modified Skeptic (458K subscribers), CosmicSkeptic (446K subscribers), The Atheist Experience (365K subscribers), Rationality Rules (296K subscribers), AronRa (263K subscribers) and Bart D. Ehrman (83K subscribers). Here is a list with the top 50 atheist YouTube channels.
There are a lot of reasons:

1. The distance between what Christians is about, and how Christians behave in reality.

2. Modern scandals in the Churches.

3. Bad experiences of Christianity while growing up.

4. The gap between the unscientific Biblical past, with its scientifically defective notion of the universe, as contrasted with the info & methods available today.

5. Ignorance that the Bible can be interpreted by Christians in any but a Fundamentalist manner.

6. The falsified predictions of the Bible, notably that by Jesus of His return within the generation of His hearers.

7. The historical evil-doings of the Churches, such as the slave-trade.

8. The extermination of whole towns in the Book of Joshua, at the command of God. A lot of the objection to God as shown in the Bible, is based on His less than attractive character.

9. Doubts about the historical reality of Jesus.

10. The failure of Christians to show that their God is anything more than a phantom.

11. Scepticism about the reliability of the transmission of the Biblical texts.

12. The difference between the Christian reliance on faith in a God Who cannot be verified by the sciences, and the scientific method, which relies on experimentation, empirical evidence, and rationality.

13. The gap between what Jesus said about prayer, and the disappointing and useless real-wotld reality of having prayed.

There are other objections too.

In my humble opinion, the Churches, at least in the United Kingdom, are mostly doing a thoroughly abysmal job of preparing Christians to be able to fend off these objections and to explain why Christianity is worthy of being believed by intelligent and moral human beings.

I think that one of the biggest challenges to Christians in the West, may be sheer demoralisation. That, and boredom. The problem for Christianity is, that it has now been before the world for nearly 2000 years. In that time it has had ample opportunity to show what its true character is. And unfortunately for us living today, it is often the case that what people in the past thought was compatible with Christian living is not remotely compatible with Christian living today. I don’t know how that problem is to be dealt with. I think Christianity is very largely disqualified from sympathetic consideration by its historical record, or by what is supposed, however inaccurately, to be its historical record.

People like novelty, and Christianity lacks that. Its close relation to the establishment, which in past centuries would often have been an advantage, is likely now to be a serious disadvantage.

Anyone of any age can be overcome by doubts in religious matters.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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There are a lot of reasons:

1. The distance between what Christians is about, and how Christians behave in reality.

2. Modern scandals in the Churches.

3. Bad experiences of Christianity while growing up.

4. The gap between the unscientific Biblical past, with its scientifically defective notion of the universe, as contrasted with the info & methods available today.

5. Ignorance that the Bible can be interpreted by Christians in any but a Fundamentalist manner.

6. The falsified predictions of the Bible, notably that by Jesus of His return within the generation of His hearers.

7. The historical evil-doings of the Churches, such as the slave-trade.

8. The extermination of whole towns in the Book of Joshua, at the command of God. A lot of the objection to God as shown in the Bible, is based on His less than attractive character.

9. Doubts about the historical reality of Jesus.

10. The failure of Christians to show that their God is anything more than a phantom.

11. Scepticism about the reliability of the transmission of the Biblical texts.

12. The difference between the Christian reliance on faith in a God Who cannot be verified by the sciences, and the scientific method, which relies on experimentation, empirical evidence, and rationality.

13. The gap between what Jesus said about prayer, and the disappointing and useless real-wotld reality of having prayed.

There are other objections too.

In my humble opinion, the Churches, at least in the United Kingdom, are mostly doing a thoroughly abysmal job of preparing Christians to be able to fend off these objections and to explain why Christianity is worthy of being believed by intelligent and moral human beings.

I think that one of the biggest challenges to Christians in the West, may be sheer demoralisation. That, and boredom. The problem for Christianity is, that it has now been before the world for nearly 2000 years. In that time it has had ample opportunity to show what its true character is. And unfortunately for us living today, it is often the case that what people in the past thought was compatible with Christian living is not remotely compatible with Christian living today. I don’t know how that problem is to be dealt with. I think Christianity is very largely disqualified from sympathetic consideration by its historical record, or by what is supposed, however inaccurately, to be its historical record.

People like novelty, and Christianity lacks that. Its close relation to the establishment, which in past centuries would often have been an advantage, is likely now to be a serious disadvantage.

Anyone of any age can be overcome by doubts in religious matters.

Given these reasons, how come you have not lost your faith?
 
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Inhocsigno

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  • What are the most common reasons that cause Christians to lose their faith and turn to atheism, agnosticism or skepticism?
Greetings TruthSeek3r,
I can only speak from within my own limited experience and my fellow congregants and ministers, and my understanding of this is largely based in the context of mission work, mainly in Europe in our case with observations of deconversion among those we've converted or newly re-invigorated into the Church. But as a simple answer, again in the context of mission work, I would say the main cause of deconversion is lack of commitment by those involved in ministry, or at least the perception of that by the congregants. Particularly for the newly converted or for new members of the church, they need to feel that they're joining a community that's vigorous and where the missionaries and ministers above all, are themselves committed to the ministry and the improvement of the Church and its broader efforts.

Now the nature of "lack of commitment" can vary depending on where the ministries are being conducted, but in our main focus--as a group of (mainly) American, Canadian and Australian missionaries active in European countries supporting the locals, building or renovating churches and converting ex. Turkish, Algerian or Syrian migrant workers to the faith--by far the most common error made by some ministry efforts is a failure by the missionaries to fully settle down, with their families, in their adopted home in Europe, and stay there (including raising their kids there) for the long term. In Europe in particular, since it consists of first-world countries trying to improve worship in a secular environment (and where the missionaries themselves have ancestry), a failure to settle down and ex. "become French", "become German", "become Dutch (or Belgian, or Finnish...)"--that is to adopt citizenship and raise one's children as full citizens and cultural members of the country--appears to the locals to be at best a tepid commitment, and such ministry efforts are almost always unsuccessful, unfortunately squandering a large amount of human and financial resources. This has gotten a lot of discussion on threads I think exactly because it was such a common errors among missionaries in the 1990's and 2000's, most of whom had done missions in developing countries where expectations and the nature of commitment is different. I myself did mission work as a youth in several developing countries, including in North Africa (Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia), and for those, the standard model of ministry work is to stay for a few months to years, help the locals to build churches and win converts in their villages, and then basically hand off the reigns to local ministers and return back to the US (or Canada), and it's often successful.

But this missionary model does not work in a first-world country or continent like Europe, especially when the missionaries themselves clearly have ancestry in the countries they're ministering in. That is, if the ministers from the US, Canada, Australia or New Zealand come to a European country like Belgium, France, Italy or Sweden, and even if they achieve some significant accomplishments--building churches or distributing language-specific Bibles for example--the mission almost always fails longer-term if the missionaries then just go back to North America or Oceania, and there is widespread deconversion and an erosion of the restored or new church in the region. The locals and the newly converted in Europe perceive this as being a half-hearted commitment to the ministry, with suspicions of self-doubt about the importance of the mission or the value and significance of the new converts (or secular locals with newfound devotion)

We did an inter-ministry study a few years ago with help of a professional surveying firm, and the results confirmed that this "go back home" error was the single most common reason for failed ministries and deconversion in Europe, and this had a devastating effect on every element of the ministry. The source churches for the missionaries in our group are based mainly in a band from Texas through the US Southwest (with a few branches in Alabama, Florida and South Carolina and abroad from Canada, Australia and a couple in NZ). And we make clear to our potential missionaries that for those interested in Europe, they should make every effort to stay there long-term and raise their families there, fully adopting the culture and growing up speaking French, German, Dutch or whatever the local language, and in fact we encourage our ministers to research their ancestry to look for ways to get permanent settlement visas (one of the easiest ways to facilitate getting citizenship in the European Union, since all EU countries have some form of "citizenship by descent" option).

To show this a bit further with a specific and striking example, a number of my closest friends are Mormons going back to childhood, in fact our church network has done a lot of missionary and charity efforts teaming with the LDS church. One of my best friends was involved in an extended Mormon missionary effort in Europe in the early 1990's, he dedicated almost 5 years to it and a lot of resources from his branches and Latter-Day Saints temples. At the time, however, the Mormon church was still mainly following an old-fashioned model of "minister and return" that they'd used elsewhere in the world, not realizing this didn't work in Europe. In the 2000's the LDS elders and officials did a review of retention of converts and deconversion in Europe, and the results were dismal--more than 85 percent of the converts in my friend's temples and chapters in Europe had deconverted, and for most temples it was over 90 percent. (For many of our own newly built or restored churches and other evangelical churches in Europe and their missions, there were points where close to a quarter of our flock were ex-Mormons who had initially converted to the LDS, but left when the American Mormon missionaries went back to the United States.)

The LDS church has since apparently made a change in the focus of its missionary efforts in Europe, expecting that missionaries in the EU this time will move and stay there permanently with their families. From my old friends and contacts within the LDS branches, the latest surveys are showing much greater long-term success, with a solid majority of the new converts staying within the faith when they see that the the US Mormons have themselves made the commitments to stay in Europe and raise their own kids there. My friend needless to say was deeply depressed upon hearing the initial results on deconversion and made another attempt later, after the change in LDS recommendations for ministries in Europe, selling his home in Utah and moving his wife and four children to France, but this time to stay, with his kids growing up fully French. His second effort in Europe has since had much greater success, with a large majority of the new converts and congregants in the temples remaining with it longer term, in major part because they see that he and his family are fully committed as well. We've no doubt seen the same thing with our Lutheran and generally evangelical churches everywhere in Europe, whether in new churches or refurbished historic churches stretching back to Middle Ages. Our ministers in Europe move there to stay permanently and raise their families there, with most as a rule having ancestry in those countries that further reinforces their connections there, and this in turn been perceived as a demonstration of commitment that's encouraged their new flocks and converts to remain with the faith and stay active with it.
 
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Carl Emerson

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  • What are the most common reasons that cause Christians to lose their faith and turn to atheism, agnosticism or skepticism?
  • Are these reasons only effective against young Christians, or are long-time committed Christians also vulnerable to have their faith "shaken" by these reasons? What about pastors, priests, evangelists, missionaries, etc.?
  • Lastly, what measures (if any) are Christian churches taking to counteract these reasons for deconversion? Do any Christian churches or organizations teach people how to have an unshakable faith, even in the face of the most challenging objections?
I think these are important questions to answer, especially with so many atheist activists spreading skepticism and atheism nowadays. Wikipedia has an informative list of atheist activists and educators. There are also the "Four Horsemen of the New Atheism", namely, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, and Sam Harris. In social media we also find lots of content producers who spread agnosticism, atheism and skeptical ways of thinking. For example, on YouTube I'm familiar with Genetically Modified Skeptic (458K subscribers), CosmicSkeptic (446K subscribers), The Atheist Experience (365K subscribers), Rationality Rules (296K subscribers), AronRa (263K subscribers) and Bart D. Ehrman (83K subscribers). Here is a list with the top 50 atheist YouTube channels.

I think a top issue to be addressed is 'belonging'.

The birth of the church was home based and strongly attached to family.

There is a deep human need for family but many church structures do not function in a way that promotes such a relationship.

Commonly the 'vision' or the 'structure' is to be served and relationships are lower priority.

Many churches preach the 'family of God' yet folks rarely visit each other if at all.

Pastors are taught how to manage the 'demands' of the needy as if the 'least' were a burden rather than an asset.

Church leaders used to visit each family but no more...

So if we were to practice what we read of how believers should be bearing one another's burdens so there is no loneliness - there would be a lot less attrition.

I well remember attending large modern services and having a deep sense of aloneness and the sermon was like a train passing by a platform without stopping. Great words - no connection.

But Jesus spoke of a Kingdom in which the poor have the focus.

Modern churches seem to focus on the 'successful'.

It is easy to get a sense of this by looking at the cars in the carpark.

I guess this pays the bills.

Personally I don't think church leaders should be in contract to deliver.

Rather their support should come direct from the congregation who believe in them and own their support.

So family should be the primary dynamic - this fosters 'belonging'.
 
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