Tongues & the cessationists.

[Kenny'sID]

If you reject the gift of tongues which has been given by Jesus when He sent the Holy Spirit to indwell believers and empower them to build up the church, then you are rejecting something that is part of the endowment of the Spirit. A person doesn't have to speak in tongues to embrace the Spirit and His gifts, but to say that a gift that God the Holy Spirit has given to the church is mere babble, then you are insulting the Holy Spirit and Jesus who sent Him.

I don't reject tongues...when they are truly tongues.

Seriously, Oscar, you're basically asking me not to use good sense, to believe anyone who claims they are speaking in tongues, and after some of the scamming pretenders I've seen, on top of those so insecure they use the claim to seem powerful, special, and more holy than the next man. God should be all we need to feel secure, but some want more, so God has given to them reprobate mind to believe what is not true

You are even trying to lay a guilt trip on me if I don't buy it?

I also believe people can be raised from the dead, can you do that, Oscar? No? Ok, I get it, not everyone has the same gift (at least that's the usual excuse). Alright then, do you know anyone who has raised someone from the dead, and if so, it is easily provable, do you know of any proof from anyone in the whole world they have done that? No?

Now, don't you find it odd that the only miracles done are those that cannot be proven, "because tongues are speaking in a language of Angels only God can understand". While no one ever even claims they can raise the dead or other gifts that can be proven?

Why aren't the hospitals full of these miracle workers? And please don't tell me it's because of our lack of faith. If some of us do have a lack of faith, it's because that's what some men have caused, and it's a lack of faith in men, not God.

Fact is, I would say the vast majority or even more who claim they are speaking in tongues, are not. they'd like to think they are special, and so much so, they actually are in their minds..it's what they want for themselves out of all this, to feel more important than most. And because of that, they live a delusion when, in reality, they have no power to to do miracles in Christs name, none whatsoever, and likely because or their selfish reasons for wanting to.

Now those are just the ones who really believe they have power to preform miracles in the name of Christ, or tongues anyway, since that's the only thing they can get away with claiming. Then there are the outright scammers that want to appear extra holy for the money it brings in, and not for the sole reason of just wanting to tend their insecurities by pretending they are special like those I already mentioned. But that's another post entirely.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I heard a true story

I'm sure you have also "heard true stories" of healing, raising from the dead, and so on, and it was true not because you had proof positive but because you wanted it to be.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I don't reject tongues...when they are truly tongues.

Seriously, Oscar, you're basically asking me not to use good sense, to believe anyone who claims they are speaking in tongues, and after some of the scamming pretenders I've seen, on top of those so insecure they use the claim to seem powerful, special, and more holy than the next man. God should be all we need to feel secure, but some want more, so God has given to them reprobate mind to believe what is not true

You are even trying to lay a guilt trip on me if I don't buy it?

I also believe people can be raised from the dead, can you do that, Oscar? No? Ok, I get it, not everyone has the same gift (at least that's the usual excuse). Alright then, do you know anyone who has raised someone from the dead, and if so, it is easily provable, do you know of any proof from anyone in the whole world they have done that? No?

Now, don't you find it odd that the only miracles done are those that cannot be proven, "because tongues are speaking in a language of Angels only God can understand". While no one ever even claims they can raise the dead or other gifts that can be proven?

Why aren't the hospitals full of these miracle workers? And please don't tell me it's because of our lack of faith. If some of us do have a lack of faith, it's because that's what some men have caused, and it's a lack of faith in men, not God.

Fact is, I would say the vast majority or even more who claim they are speaking in tongues, are not. they'd like to think they are special, and so much so, they actually are in their minds..it's what they want for themselves out of all this, to feel more important than most. And because of that, they live a delusion when, in reality, they have no power to to do miracles in Christs name, none whatsoever, and likely because or their selfish reasons for wanting to.

Now those are just the ones who really believe they have power to preform miracles in the name of Christ, or tongues anyway, since that's the only thing they can get away with claiming. Then there are the outright scammers that want to appear extra holy for the money it brings in, and not for the sole reason of just wanting to tend their insecurities by pretending they are special like those I already mentioned. But that's another post entirely.

If you accept that the Holy Spirit gifts have never been withdrawn and are still available today for believers, then you are embracing the Holy Spirit and not insulting Him.

I know fully that there are scammers and hypocrites out there misusing the gifts. Good grief! I have been associated with those associated with the ministry of the Holy Spirit and the gifts for the last 50 years and I, like you, have all the good, bad and ugly. But I have learned to take my eyes of the bad and the ugly so as not to advertise or glorify them. The only person I can change in that respect is me. I have to continually examine myself to make sure that if the Holy Spirit is to use me in a spiritual gift, then I must be a man of prayer and the Word.

I know that tongues is a controversial topic and there is also the good, bad and ugly there as well. But the fault is not the modern use of the gift of tongues. It is to do with the hearts of those who do it. If the heart is good and the person is a person of prayer and the Word, then if they pray in tongues then it is genuine, because their hearts are genuine and so the Holy Spirit is in them. But if the heart is bad and there is unconfessed sin and disobedience then the Holy Spirit is quenched and grieved and so the tongues they speak may be of the flesh or even the devil! I am not so naive to believe that every professing believer who says they pray in genuine tongues is actually genuine, in the same way that I do not have the spirit of stupidity to believe that every church member has a true heart before God.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm sure you have also "heard true stories" of healing, raising from the dead, and so on, and it was true not because you had proof positive but because you wanted it to be.

I don't have to prove anything to you. I tell the story because I believe it to be true. You are quite free to believe what you wish. I don't feel any conflict about that. We don't have to debate about whether a story I tell is true or not, or whether I need proof to satisfy you. We can agree to disagree about that.

My experience is different from yours. I left my last Charismatic church in 1978 because I saw the falsehood, gossiping, legalism, judgmentalism and controlling spirits. I heard prophecies that purported to be of the Holy Spirit but now I know that they were manipulative prophecies intending to control the members, using God's name with it. I know recognise these controlling prophecies as witchcraft, because manipulation, control, and intimidation are the characteristics of witchcraft. The misuse of personal prophecies and "words of knowledge" can come from that same spirit of witchcraft, because it is using "the word of God" to manipulate people into doing what the "prophet" wants them to do.

It has been only since I have been away from direct involvement in a Charismatic church that I am now recognising the false that has infiltrated the true work of the Holy Spirit in churches. But I don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I know that the presence of the counterfeit proves that there is a true work of the Holy Spirit in the church through those whose hearts are right and true with God, whose intention is to glorify Christ and to bring souls to Christ without any form of control, manipulation and intimidation.

It is right to recognise the false and be sober and vigilant about it, but it is also right to recognise that there are true tongues, healing, deliverance, somewhere among all the false. Usually, the true doesn't make a big show of what it does because it doesn't have to advertise and make great claims. The genuine outcome itself shows the power and glory of God and causes sinners to come to Christ, and that is the purpose of them, because that is the principal mission of the Holy Spirit - not for the self-indulgent of selfish Christians.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm sure you have also "heard true stories" of healing, raising from the dead, and so on, and it was true not because you had proof positive but because you wanted it to be.

Just before I go off to bed and sleep the sleep of the just I just want to make a comment. I am having a break from churches at the moment and having a time of just fellowshiping with God, waiting on Him and seeing what He wants to do with me next.

Concerning the use of the gifts of the Spirit, including prophecy, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, healing, discerning of spirits, I am saying to God that I am not going to do any of them unless I know beyond all shadow of doubt that it is the Holy Spirit who is leading me to do it, and there has to be an outcome that causes people to turn to Christ or to come back to Christ or be set free in Christ. Christ and only He has to be the exclusive focus of anything the Holy Spirit does through me. If I minister healing to anyone, they have to know that I am acting in obedience to God's Word and not for any outcome which only Jesus can accomplish. I have also come to the point where I don't want to lay hands on anyone, because I don't want to impart anything that is of the flesh. I believe that the Holy Spirit can minister in power to someone without any physical contact at all.

I would rather not do anything at all in terms of using the gifts of the Spirit if there is the slightest possibility that I might be doing it according to my will and not the will of the Spirit.

My supervisor at work got healed of arthritis in her knee when I prayed for her, but I held back for a number of days because I was too nervous about it. The Holy Spirit had to say to me, "Are you, or are you not willing to pray for her?" I said to the Lord that I was willing to pray for her, but I was not going to start the conversation about it. I walked through the door and she brought up the subject to me about healing which gave me the opportunity, and so I prayed for her. Three weeks later, the doctor took another xray of her knee and couldn't find any arthritis! The doctor was puzzled because he had the xray proof that the arthritis was there, but the second xray showed that it had gone. She told us about that in a staff meeting, and a Christian brother in the meeting said in a loud voice, "That was after Paul prayed for her!" That was a great testimony to the goodness and power of God. That supervisor was very soft toward the things of God after that.

The point I am making about that is that I was nervous and fearful about praying for her (quite unlike many Charismatics) and the Holy Spirit had to almost push me into it, and He did the healing, not me. And it didn't happen in a hyped up conference meeting. It happened on a cold grey Monday morning at work!

You can believe or not believe it, but all the staff, Christian and non-Christian totally believed that she was miraculously healed through prayer. Arthritis just doesn't go away in three weeks by itself.

Anyway, off to bed I go!

 

[GingerBeer]

What you are doing here is providing an example of false tongues, used out of the proper context and not used to pray and worship God. So, it is quite true that a linguist would not make sense of it, because it is, used in this way, gibberish, because it is not inspired by the Holy Spirit.

In fact, to do this is an absolute insult to the Holy Spirit and to Jesus who sent the Holy Spirit to the church.

How do you know the context of the words I typed as an example of phonetically spelled tongues? I contend that you do not know and that you've just written what you please to explain it away.

mashinga yamma tanga bushandi miyama miyama kalla kanda sudakai tikka tikka konti bashami tona tona mi tona.​

The "message" is gibberish I am sure and the explanation you posted is presumption not an explanation.

What strikes me as insulting to the people reading this thread is to throw out a "discernment of spirits" or whatever it is that "justifies" calling the example above "an example of false tongues, used out of the proper context and not used to pray and worship God." However I do agree that the "message" is gibberish that is not "inspired" by God in any sense.

 

[Dave L]

Paul was not speaking about the gift of tongues in that reference. The devil can quote Scripture and he does it by quoting it out of its proper context.

I have come to the belief that those who do not embrace the gifts of the Spirit, including the gift of tongues are rejecting the Holy Spirit and insulting Him. He is God and He has given gifts to the church and the Scripture says that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Therefore God the Holy Spirit has not withdrawn His gifts from the church in accordance with His promise.

So a person who is dictating to God the Holy Spirit in how He should move through people with His gifts, including tongues, is insulting God, and rejecting Jesus who sent the Holy Spirit with His gifts to the church to support the great commission until Jesus comes again.

The problem is the gifts ceased with the Apostles. And scripture replaced them providing a full revelation from God. Instead of the fragmentary revelation tongues and prophecy gave. All claims for having the "charismatic" gifts today are false and those making the claims are deceived. If you can raise a few people from the dead, your claim to speaking in tongues might be more worthy of consideration. But only the "gifts" that cannot be tested seem to be popular today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What about the Scripture: "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance"? Doesn't that mean that when God gives gifts, He doesn't take them back?

Do you believe God's grace is a gift as per Ephesians 2:8?
Do you believe there will be a time when God will no longer offer this gift?
Meaning: Do you believe the gift of eternal life will be offered after the Judgment?
Does God's ability to not offer the gift of eternal life in another time period mean that his gift of eternal life was irrevocable? No. It merely means that the gift was only irrevocable during the time period or dispensation that it was offered.

So, if God the Holy Spirit is involved with a church, and God the Holy Spirit does not take His gifts back, then how come the gifts ceased? Do you think that God the Holy Spirit walked away from the church and took His gifts with Him? What would make Him do that? Perhaps church members were dropping their standards of holiness and accepting pagan ideas into the church. If a church become full of heresy and paganism, do you think God the Holy Spirit, being the absolute Holy Spirit who He is, would want to stick around while there is unconfessed sin, unholiness and paganism in the church?

You are merely espousing your own opinion here and not Scripture, my friend.

But if we study church history, we discover that there were movements that stood for holiness and anti-paganism, and then the gifts of the Spirit came back into those movements with tongues and healing. Then they were brutally suppressed and slandered and its members tortured and killed by the established church of the time.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God and not man made history. So I do not put much stock in man made history. It's not God's Word or Scripture. While the documents you suggest may be true, there is the possibility that they may not be true, too. These documents may also do not give us all of the facts presented, either. So we could be misunderstanding what is said from the bias of the reader or not knowing about what really happened because we were not there to witness everything.

So those who respect and revere God the Holy Spirit and Jesus who sent Him into the church, will happily embrace the gifts that He brings.

I have friends online and at work (not close friends) who are Charismatic. I consider them to be brothers and sisters in Christ. I am of the position that I simply "do not know" whether or not they are operating by GOD or not. I have not seen the power that they operate by. For me: It is a mystery. I do not want to speak against the working power of how GOD operates in their life or not because I do not want to speak against GOD if I am wrong. So I do not discount the small possibility that the gifts have not ceased. But I also cannot unlearn the Scriptures that I know on Cessationism, either (Unless God opens an entirely new explanation for me on these many verses). I see Cessationism as the most likely possibility, but I am not discounting the small possibility that the early church gifts are still in operation today (even though we do not see them or hear about them).

I wonder if those who think that the Holy Spirit is active in their church where there are no gifts, are actually deceived and don't know what spirit they are of?

There is no need to be insulting towards those who are more cautious.

In any event, may GOD bless you;
And may the Lord's goodness be upon you today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Did God say that they have ceased? Where?

The Bible tells us that tongues and prophecy will cease ~ 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Verse 8 says, “...whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;” and verse 8 says, “whether there be tongues, they shall cease;” The question is when do tongues and prophecies cease? Verse 10 says “ when that which is perfect is come”; And verse 11 says, “when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Are we going to be children (and not men) upon this Earth until Christ takes us home?

Both 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1 describe something that is “perfect” and “looking into a mirror.” In 1 Corinthians 13, that which is “perfect” (neuter in the Greek) fits the reference to the “Perfect law of liberty” (James 1:25) (Which would also be neuter). The law of the Lord is “perfect” (Psalms 19:7). All Scripture (the Bible) is profitable so that the man of God may be “perfect” unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). James 1:23 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in.

In other words, that which is "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13 is prophetically talking about God's Word the Bible. When that which is "perfect" is come (i.e. the Bible), tongues, and prophecy will cease. James 1 ties it all together with 1 Corinthians 13.

In fact, here are some similarities between 1 Corinthians 13, and James 1:

#1. Perfect is present in both.

"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." (1 Corinthians 13:10).

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:25).​

#2. Mirror/Glass is present in both.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly;"
(1 Corinthians 13:12).​

23 "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:23-25).​

#3. Looking into a Mirror/Glass is present in both.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:" (1 Corinthians 13:12).

We see through a glass, but we can see our reflection in this glass and become face to face with ourselves (i.e. the reflection of our face, and our real face).​

23 "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:23-25).​

#4. Love is present in both.

"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." (1 Corinthians 13:13).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).​

#5. Being immature (a child, knowing in part, or forgetful) is present in both.

Children lack knowledge. They know in part.

11 "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Corinthians 13:11-12).

James talks about how one who does not do God's Word is like a person who looks into a mirror and forgets what he looks like. They know in part, too. They may know certain things, but they cannot remember what they look like in the mirror. They are like a child if they do not obey God's Word.

22 "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:22-25).

Children can sometimes be forgetful, too.​

In addition, we also have to take a step back and remind ourselves that 1 Corinthians 13 is the famous love chapter. How did Jesus say we are to love Him? Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). These commandments are found within His Word. James says,

3 "...the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:3-4).​

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:25).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Oscarr

Also, what is the meaning of "face to face" in 1 Corinthians 13? Well, I believe we will see our image conform or change to the image of Christ in light of the "Bible / Glass / Mirror" by our obedience to Jesus's commands (Note: See the pictures below within this post). As we obey His Word, we conform more to the likeness of Christ and when we look in the mirror of God's Word (the Bible), we see the image of Christ in the reflection and not our old reflection by the fact that we are conforming to that "perfect Word" that He has given us. So yes. We do see Christ in the mirror "face to face" but it is only by our conforming to Christ by our obedience to Him. The focus of 1 Corinthians 13 is love. Loving as Christ loved. As a whole: 1 Corinthians 12, 1 Corinthians 13, 1 Corinthians 14 are dealing with gifts. Although these gifts were necessary at one time (to confirm the Word of the New Covenant and the early church), these gifts have ceased, and they are no longer needed (Because that which is "perfect" has come, i.e. the Bible) whereby we can be "perfect" or be a "mature man" by obeying God's Word by faith (and not by sight). For 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that all Scripture is profitable for doctrine so that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work.

"And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord..." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (AMPC).

"As all of us reflect the glory of the Lord with unveiled faces, we are becoming more like him with ever-increasing glory by the Lord’s Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (ISV).

"The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (John 6:40).

2 "Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure."
(1 John 3:2-3).

To all:

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12:2).

16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Gifts are something people can see. But the Word of God (the Bible) is a faith thing.

Jesus said,
"...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29).

This would be us today with the Bible.
We don't need spiritual gifts to see in order to believe.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1).


Side Note:

The second image (above) that has a picture of Christ is not what Jesus obviously looks like. I only posted this image for illustrative purposes only. Jesus is not white or European and He more than likely did not have long hair, either.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What about where Paul says about speaking in tongues to himself and to God? Doesn't Paul's own words contradict you?

Paul is criticizing the use of tongues in 1 Corinthians 14. He does not say that he personally speaks in tongues to God. Paul is saying that the person who speaks in tongues without an interpreter is seeking to edify themselves (Which is not good). Paul talks about sounding like barbarians to others. Paul says he would rather speak five words with the understand, than 10 thousand words without the understanding.

"Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?" (1 Corinthians 14:6).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

An interesting general point: When the devil quotes Scripture in order to deceive, he quotes the parts that encourage the deception and leaves out others within the context that might give a more full picture of what is actually meant by the whole passage or chapter.

This is an ad hominem and it is not really a refutation of the Scriptural points I have made.

May God bless you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The truth of Scripture viewed in context is more valid than observances of how people practice the gifts of the Spirit. Just because certain groups practice the gifts in certain ways does not deny the Scripture in its description of the gifts.

Please point me to those believers who are operated EXACTLY in the same way that the early church believers did. Meaning: Where are those who can heal by just speaking a few words? Where are those who can heal everyone 100% of the time? Where are those who can heal using their shadow? Where are those who can raise the dead to life? Even Paul did not seem to have the same healing power of God towards the end of his life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The words of men do not invalidate Scripture.

You admitted that there are those who operate by false miracles. This is what the video is about. If you are a truth seeker or in support of the truth, then watching the video will only arm you with the truth.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

How do you know the context of the words I typed as an example of phonetically spelled tongues? I contend that you do not know and that you've just written what you please to explain it away.

mashinga yamma tanga bushandi miyama miyama kalla kanda sudakai tikka tikka konti bashami tona tona mi tona.​

The "message" is gibberish I am sure and the explanation you posted is presumption not an explanation.

What strikes me as insulting to the people reading this thread is to throw out a "discernment of spirits" or whatever it is that "justifies" calling the example above "an example of false tongues, used out of the proper context and not used to pray and worship God." However I do agree that the "message" is gibberish that is not "inspired" by God in any sense.

You know as well as I do that typing out tongues like that for the purpose of proving that they are nonsense is twisting it out of its proper worship context and therefore would not prove anything either way. Any further debate would be pointless.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The problem is the gifts ceased with the Apostles. And scripture replaced them providing a full revelation from God. Instead of the fragmentary revelation tongues and prophecy gave. All claims for having the "charismatic" gifts today are false and those making the claims are deceived. If you can raise a few people from the dead, your claim to speaking in tongues might be more worthy of consideration. But only the "gifts" that cannot be tested seem to be popular today.

I hold to my assertion that those who don't embrace the gifts of the Holy Spirit are quenching, grieving and insulting the Holy Spirit and Jesus who sent Him to the church. It makes no difference to me whether you want to receive the full ability of the Holy Spirit for yourself, because that is your right, but to teach others that anyone manifesting the gifts in faith is setting the Holy Spirit in conflict with you.

 

[Dave L]

I hold to my assertion that those who don't embrace the gifts of the Holy Spirit are quenching, grieving and insulting the Holy Spirit and Jesus who sent Him to the church. It makes no difference to me whether you want to receive the full ability of the Holy Spirit for yourself, because that is your right, but to teach others that anyone manifesting the gifts in faith is setting the Holy Spirit in conflict with you.

You are not walking in the Spirit when claiming to have gifts that are clearly fraudulent.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You admitted that there are those who operate by false miracles. This is what the video is about. If you are a truth seeker or in support of the truth, then watching the video will only arm you with the truth.

I have read through your replies. The problem is that you are adapting Scripture to fit your view rather than adapting your view to fit Scripture. If Paul defines prophecy as preaching the word as well as giving prophecies, then your "when the perfect has come" Scripture quote is invalid for providing support that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. This is because the Word of God is still being preached and souls are still be saved as a result. If the preaching of God's Word has ceased, then any preaching would just be empty and vain religious words every time. But that is not the reality. So, prophecy as Paul defines it, has not ceased at all!

 

[Dave L]

I have read through your replies. The problem is that you are adapting Scripture to fit your view rather than adapting your view to fit Scripture. If Paul defines prophecy as preaching the word as well as giving prophecies, then your "when the perfect has come" Scripture quote is invalid for providing support that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. This is because the Word of God is still being preached and souls are still be saved as a result. If the preaching of God's Word has ceased, then any preaching would just be empty and vain religious words every time. But that is not the reality. So, prophecy as Paul defines it, has not ceased at all!

I find this is exactly what Pentecostals do. If you read Acts objectively, an entirely different understanding than that provided by the Pentecostal framework emerges. And it's fascinating.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You are not walking in the Spirit when claiming to have gifts that are clearly fraudulent.

What I have said about insulting the Holy Spirit by rejecting His gifts, I have said. Therefore your blood will not be on my hands at the judgment when God stands you up and asks, "Why have you insulted God the Holy Spirit by calling His gifts which He brought to the church fraudulent?"

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth, The Scripture says "Let God be true and every man a liar". This is includes God the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth, His gifts are also true and not fraudulent either in the Apostolic Age or in this church age which will end at the Second Coming of Christ.

How some practice the gifts is a concern, but because some misuse the gifts does not make the gifts themselves fraudulent. But it is fraudulent to twist Scripture out of context and cobble random references to support a lie.