Tongues...probably everyone has already discussed this, but...

[Optimax]

Actually Bstow, there is the third one that happened in acts 2, where everyone heard them speaking in languages understandable to one another, and praising GOD.

It still happens today. Benny Hinn related a story of how recently a terrorist over in Switzerland had entered a church service there and was going to blow it up, when a lady jumped up in the middle of the service and started speaking in tongues. The guy heard the lady and came to the alter and gave his life to Christ. She was speaking perfect arabic and knew everything about him and what he was going to do. GOD convicted him there and then.

She knew no arabic whatsoever. This would be a witness to 1 Cor 14:22, since the guy was convicted in his own language and understood it.

This was completely unorthodox to our standards of how The Holy Spirit works also, to those who believe He never interrupts Himself, because in this case, He did.

This certainly happens. However it is not a third it the the second one I mentioned. The person that understood the language is the interpreter. It is a different manifestation I did not mention.
Thanks.

 

[DInsight]

I'm sorry DInsight, but I cannot comprehend what it is that you are saying, even after reading all of your posts in this thread several times over. I suppose it could be me, but it sounds like you are a bit muddled, and not real clear.

Try shortening your posts, and making each point separately.

Consise and to the point is the ticket.

dkbwarrior:
Grace and peace from God and His Christ to you!

Yes, I understand why you can be lost because of length of posts. I'll try my best now to make it concise.

Now, here is the summary about the language (tongue):

1. There is a pure language of God with which He speaks and He gives by faith (as a promise) for the generation of eternal life - Zeph. 3:8-9.
2. Because it is by faith, we receive as a promise. And because it comes by faith, the Spirit manifests that promised language in part through the gifts of the Spirit - some (as the Spirit decides) are able to speak, some (as the Spirit decides) are able to understand.
3. The pure language (tongue) has its two-fold purpose:
   • To be used in calling the name of the LORD
   • To bring all who use the language in one consent (mind) - that is, to unite all.

Summary as it relates to praying IN the Spirit:

1. When the Spirit is in someone, whatever the person does is said to be in the Spirit.
2. The Spirit takes predominance, by default, over the spirit of the man. In prayer/worship/singing, the Spirit prays/worships/sings through the man in the pure language.
3. The man praying can be heard in one of two ways:
   • In the pure language of the Spirit - that MUST be interpreted. That is why Paul one who speaks in an unknown tongue must also pray for interpretation.
   • In his own language - because the Spirit gives him immediate understanding of what He is saying in his (man's) language. This is what happened in Acts 2 when the Spirit spoke through the disciples and they were heard speaking in their native Galilaeans.

Summary of praying WITH the Spirit:

1. Praying alongside with the Spirit and agreeing with what He prays about.
2. If the Spirit speaks and the man praying with Him does not understand, the Spirit is like a barbarian to him and it is fruitless.
3. So, the Spirit speaks and gives understanding at the same time. It becomes profitable to the man WITH whom the Spirit prays.

Summary of why there MUST be understanding:

1. The Spirit is given to profit EVERY MAN - 1 Cor. 12:7.
2. When one or more do not profit from what the Spirit speaks, it is NOT from the Spirit of God. Reason is that if it were so, 1 Cor. 12:7 will be in vain, which says: "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal".
3. If I speak in a tongue and there is no interpretation, it is unprofitable to me and it cannot be of the Spirit... as the Spirit will not go against what He gave Paul to write in 1 Cor. 12:7.

Summary about any tongue (language) spoken:

1. It must call upon the name of the LORD. The name of the LORD encompasses many things in the presence of the LORD.
2. It must bring all to whom it is spoken in one accord
3. It must profit EVERY MAN present - including the one speaking. And profitability comes foremost by understanding what is being said.

There is no biblical support/implication (I challenge anyone to bring forth) that speaking in an unknown tongue without understanding is a prayer language between God and the one speaking.

Second part (in subsequent post) shall explain what constitutes the Spirit for the benefit of those who do not know.

 

[Optimax]

dkbwarrior:
There is no biblical support/implication (I challenge anyone to bring forth) that speaking in an unknown tongue without understanding is a prayer language between God and the one speaking..

1 Co 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
KJV

 

[DInsight]

Understanding the Spirit

Notice the use of the single word - Spirit.

Why is this important: Because of the four sequential ways by which the Spirit comes. First is by faith and.... As it is neither subject of this thread nor short in explanation, I'll put that on the shelve.

The fullness of the Spirit standing before the Throne - Rev. 4:5 is also the seven Spirits of God sent to the earth - Rev. 5:6. They are sent to the earth because the Spirit, alongside the Water and Blood, testify on earth.

Prophet Isaiah prophesied of this fullness that we Jesus Christ had while on earth.
Isaiah 11:2
And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.

Notice the seven spirits:

1. The Spirit of the LORD (which explanation I said in above to shelve)
2. The spirit of wisdom
3. The spirit of understanding
4. The spirit of counsel
5. The spirit of might
6. The spirit of knowledge
7. The spirit of the fear of the LORD.

There is a reason for the pairing of spirits starting from #2 thru 7 above, but again, that is another subject of lengthy explanation and for the "matured".

Compare gifts of the Spirit to above and see for yourselves how they are sourced.

I want to draw your attention to Isaiah 11:3 to see what the fullness of the Spirit immediately gave Jesus:

And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of the eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears...
​

The Spirit immediately gave Jesus UNDERSTANDING to foreclose having to judge with his physical senses of sight and hearing with the ear.

In the same way, when we receive the Spirit, the first thing He shoots for is to establish our UNDERSTANDING so that what we see and hear physically (including any unknown language) is foreclosed with spiritual UNDERSTANDING.

This is the light with which Apostle wrote about speaking with an unknown tongue and having to understand what the Spirit says. Only in understanding is there profitability. Therefore, I submit once again, that the Spirit WILL NOT give an unknown tongue to any man without securing his/her understanding in one way or the other.

Our spirit is created after the image and likeness of God's spirit - meaning, we are supposed to have an image of same faculties He has.

I am sorry if the post is lengthy - it is not to present anything in parables, but I believe it is necessary to explain a bit more for the benefit of those who might have problems understanding "loaded" statements and words.

 

[DInsight]

1 Co 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
KJV

Grace and peace unto you, bstow!

Good! But let us render that verse (1 Cor. 14:2) without input from interpreters:

For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.​

The word "unknown" was put there by interpreters.

• 1. The tongue spoken by such a man may be, as I have posted earlier, the pure language of God spoken through him by the Spirit.
  2. The tongue spoken by such a man may be, in fact, the language spoken by the people around yet. Yet, they cannot understand what is being said. Here is an example: Our Lord Jesus Christ spoke to Jews about the mysteries of the kingdom of God in their (Jewish) language (tongue). They heard Him with their physical ears but could not understand (a spiritual faculty) the mysteries. Mysteries were given only for the disciples (and now unto all sons of the kingdom) to understand and they were/are edified. We all know that our Lord Jesus Christ spoke in the Spirit.

If there is no interprepation meant for others present with him, I guarantee you that the Spirit will give understanding unto the one through whom He is speaking. In understanding is the man edified.

Edification is a profit unto the man. How can a man be edified in a thing he does not understand? He cannot!

Edification is a profit unto many that hear a prophesy. They are edified because they understand what is being prophesied.

You are always a blessing!

 

[kenblaster5000]

I have a very good friend who is a strong Christian and very godly person. However, they seem to go along with the tongues issue. I have been doing my own study on the topic...from the Bible. It seems many people believe tongues without understanding it. What are your opinions? I think that it is a gift from God, which means that not every believer will have it. Also, the tongues of the Bible is not the tongues that is practiced today...which is where I think people get confused.

There is a diversity of tongues.

1 Corinthians 2:10 .................................................................................to another different kinds of tongues, to another interpretation of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he who speaks in the tongues does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

So, there are different kinds of tongues, interpretation of tongues, speaks to God, not men, and speaks of mysteries. Interpretation of tongues let's those mysteries be known. Some say elevated to prophecy. The prophetic may be tongues and interpretation thereof working together in the same individual.(I could be wrong about this last statement)
All the gifts are from the same spirit.
The devil may counterfeit the gifts of the spirit.( This would be a nice discussion.)

God bless you, sister, and keep the faith in the name above all names, Jesus Christ.

 

[kenblaster5000]

Understanding the Spirit

Notice the use of the single word - Spirit.

Why is this important: Because of the four sequential ways by which the Spirit comes. First is by faith and.... As it is neither subject of this thread nor short in explanation, I'll put that on the shelve.

The fullness of the Spirit standing before the Throne - Rev. 4:5 is also the seven Spirits of God sent to the earth - Rev. 5:6. They are sent to the earth because the Spirit, alongside the Water and Blood, testify on earth.

Prophet Isaiah prophesied of this fullness that we Jesus Christ had while on earth.
Isaiah 11:2
And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.

Notice the seven spirits:

1. The Spirit of the LORD (which explanation I said in above to shelve)
2. The spirit of wisdom
3. The spirit of understanding
4. The spirit of counsel
5. The spirit of might
6. The spirit of knowledge
7. The spirit of the fear of the LORD.

There is a reason for the pairing of spirits starting from #2 thru 7 above, but again, that is another subject of lengthy explanation and for the "matured".

Compare gifts of the Spirit to above and see for yourselves how they are sourced.

I want to draw your attention to Isaiah 11:3 to see what the fullness of the Spirit immediately gave Jesus:

And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of the eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears...
​

The Spirit immediately gave Jesus UNDERSTANDING to foreclose having to judge with his physical senses of sight and hearing with the ear.

In the same way, when we receive the Spirit, the first thing He shoots for is to establish our UNDERSTANDING so that what we see and hear physically (including any unknown language) is foreclosed with spiritual UNDERSTANDING.

This is the light with which Apostle wrote about speaking with an unknown tongue and having to understand what the Spirit says. Only in understanding is there profitability. Therefore, I submit once again, that the Spirit WILL NOT give an unknown tongue to any man without securing his/her understanding in one way or the other.

Our spirit is created after the image and likeness of God's spirit - meaning, we are supposed to have an image of same faculties He has.

I am sorry if the post is lengthy - it is not to present anything in parables, but I believe it is necessary to explain a bit more for the benefit of those who might have problems understanding "loaded" statements and words.

There are not seven spirits, but one spirit, and those are gifts, not spirits. The spirits you are talking about, are probably to do with the 7 churches. Angels, I gather, and the spirits therof.

 

[DInsight]

There are not seven spirits, but one spirit, and those are gifts, not spirits. The spirits you are talking about, are probably to do with the 7 churches. Angels, I gather, and the spirits therof.

Ken:
That is why I said the fullness of the Spirit. There is One Spirit who is the unity of the seven spirits sent to the earth.

I did not make this up, I gave you the scriptures. The Spirit sent to the earth is the fullness of spirits sent to the earth... and they testify on earth. Jesus Christ had Him... so do some men!

Where is the "Church"? Not on earth? Why would the spirits sent to the "church" be different from the Spirit sent to the earth? I am in the learning mode, as always!

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

But where does it say that tongues is supposed to be used for self-edification? That's what I think is not really correct according to Scripture. The reason the gift of tongues was used was as a sign to unbelievers. Also, if it is disorderly, where you sort of "babble" that is what Paul was saying was incorrect, because that is what non-Believers were doing. Also, if it is not understandable, how can one interpret it?

1 Cor 14 he who prays in tongues edifies himself

Um . . . Acts chpts 10 and 11 . . . tongues served as a sign for BELIEVERS.
Also 1 Cor chapts 12-14 make it pretty clear that ALL the gifts (tongues too) are for the purpose of edifying the Body.

So tongues has more than ONE function.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

This is what Paul taught us to do, Building yourself up in your most holy faith praying in the Holy Ghost, is praying in tongues.

That is a quote from Jude not Paul.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Yeah, I think like many Pentecostals I've always been interested in spiritual things, so I've spent a lot of time looking into the writings of Harold Horton, Howard Carter, and others. It made me spend a lot of time in the sections of scripture relating to it.

I see the Bible telling us there are different operations of the spiritual gifts, and I've experienced some interesting things involving tongues in my time in the Lord. Pentecostals, especially the older ones, really talk about it in terms like "prayer language" to make distinctions like you're describing. I really don't see it in the Bible. All I see is speaking in other tongues, and it has different operations. But it's all just speaking in tongues, with some variation in the anointing. The strongest anointing that ever came expressing itself in tongues in my life came when I was alone, and the consummation of it manifested in a dream. It was a different operation.

Think about it. Paul tells us unless there's an interpreter, you don't speak out to the assembly. The tongues don't change depending on who's there, only the way you operate in it.

As far as your statement about the elevation of tongues, I think you are referring to this scripture:
1 Co 14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; 1for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

Look carefully, and you'll see there is nothing here saying tongues is elevated or changed at all. It really says he who speaks in tongues is not as great (in the sense of being valuable to the church) as he who prophesies, unless he interprets. The interpretation is what is valuable to the church. Interpretation has to come following tongues, so the tongues has a part, but the tongues never get elevated in importance, they just have no value to the church by themselves. It's the interpretation of tongues that has value similar to prophecy, only because it edifies the church. Tongues alone only edifies the one speaking in tongues. Paul spoke in tongues more than all those Corinthians, he just wasn't doing it in church. He was building himself up on his most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, giving praise well, speaking mysteries, etc.

I'm a bit of a stickler about such things. I'm slow to adopt churchspeak, no matter how widely used it is, and hardheaded to boot. I still understand what people are getting at, but I won't think that way unless I can see it in the Word. It's really a minor point, but one that takes a lot of effort for me to avoid speaking on.

No offense here, brother. We're just discussing the Word.

YESSS.

One gift many functions!

Kudos!

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Non-beleivers, have tongues? I think this was a mistake, not trying to be fault-finding, it just struck me as wrong. God bless.

Yep. Ecstatic Speech wasn't new to the world.

The one thing that marked the difference between what was going on in the pagan shrines and the church was that the Christians had CONTROL over the impetus . . . the pagans did not. They became "possessed" if you will.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Now, I would like to know from a seasoned veteran about the different types of tongues, because I have had dreams sometimes where I see a vision, for instance I fasted for three days, but cheated by taking a hunger suppressant. I had a vision of 3 spotted eggs that I interpretted as 3 bad days. At the time, a part of me understood, and I started to laugh. As I was fasting I went for a walk on a cloudy day, and I prayed that God would open up the sky around the sun, to bring us some warmth. I prayed in Jesus name where two or three are gathered in his name he is in the midst, and if two agree on anything it shall be done, and I asked to be paired up with another, since there were others walking there. The sky opened around the sun! That night I had a dream, it was night, and the sky opened up and two angels were in the opening. Do you think I was paired up with angels? Is this possible? Is this a word or vision of knowledge, or a tongue that speaks to the heart? Other times I get information that goes straight to my heart like I personally don't understand but my spirit does. I admit that I get these confused, and I am very zealous too of spiritual gifts, and understanding them better. I know I have some spiritual gifts, I have prayed for discernment, but confused it by thinking I received a gift of discernment, but there is no gift of discernment. To clarify would help to understand what I have received, for I have prayed for discerning of spirits, because I do not want to be deceived by them. These are some treacherous days, very confusing, and it behuves me to be led by the Holy Spirit.

Seems to be Four distinct functions:
1. Prayer to God (either in public or in private . . . public SHOULD be interpreted).
2. An address from God to the congregation
3. An enablement of the hearer of the tongue to hear in his/her own language (content variable)
4. As a sign

 

[Dave01]

This certainly happens. However it is not a third it the the second one I mentioned. The person that understood the language is the interpreter. It is a different manifestation I did not mention.
Thanks.

There were no interpreters in acts 2, hence we have three identified uses of the gift of tongues,.

-The tongue that is understood by another in his/her language without the speaker knowing it. (Most of Acts 2, 1 Cor 14:22)

-The tongue that speaks mysteries in the Spirit or termed "the tongue of angels" by Paul, ie our prayer language. (1 Cor 131:1)

-The tongue that The Holy Spirit speaks supernaturally in a service that must be interpreted by another with the gift of interpretation. (1 Cor 14:26-27)

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Here is an excert from a study guide I have been writing on the Holy Spirit regarding this issue:

UNDERSTANDING TONGUES​

The Gifts of the Spirit​

In the book of 1 Corinthians is a list of nine spiritual gifts:

For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
-1 Corinthians 12:8-11

These nine gifts are often placed into three groups:

1) The Power Gifts: Faith, Healing, Miracles;
2) The Revelation Gifts: Word of Wisdom, Word of Knowledge, Discerning of Spirits;
3) The Utterance Gifts: Prophecy, Tongues, Interpretation of Tongues;

The latter of these three groupings are exercised by the use of words, thus the term ’Utterance Gifts’.

Utterance Gifts (God Spirit Speaks To Man)​

What is the purpose of the utterance gifts, and how do they work?

Probably the best way to describe them is God speaking directly to man through man.

Utterance Gifts are a way for Gods spirit to speak directly to man, using another humans voice.

This is how God has always spoken directly to man, as He said to one of the prophets in the Old Testament:

“Son of man, prophesy… and say thou unto them… the word of the LORD…”.
-Ezekiel 13:2

And in the New Testament we find:

But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men… [the Word of the Lord]
-1 Corinthians 14:3a

The purpose of prophecy is to edify others, which means to build up.

...but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
-1 Corinthians 14:4

Gods Word to us is always edifying because it shows us the mind of God.

The gift of tongues is equal to prophecy in this regard if it is interpreted.

I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
-1 Corinthinas 14:5

The gift of tongues is equal to prophecy if it is interpreted, because both edify the church.

Therefore, tongues, when they are interpreted, are also God speaking directly to man.

The key here is to understand that all of the utterance gifts are Gods spirit speaking directly to man.

Praying In Tongues (Man Spirit Speaks To God)​

The misunderstandings begin when people confuse the gift of tongues and interpretation (god speaking to man) with praying in tongues, man speaking to God.

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth…
1 Corinthians 14:14

The use of the word pray in this verse infers that the unknown tongue being descried here is not God speaking to man, but rather man speaking to God.

To be more precise, it is mans spirit speaking to God, because the writer says that when he does this it is his spirit praying.

When one prays in tongues it is not the gift of tongues in operation at all, because it is not Gods spirit speaking to man, but rather, mans spiritspeaking to God.

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto god, for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
-1 Corinthians 14:2

When someone prays in tongues it is mans spirit speaking directly to god. This is exactly the opposite of the gift of tongues and interpretation, which we have shown is god speaking directly to man.

Read the following verses of scripture carefully:

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
-1 Corinthians 14:14-16

The writer tells us here that praying in tongues is his spirit praying, and uses the terms praying in tongues, praying with the spirit, singing with the spirit, and blessing with the spirit; all to describe what he is talking about.

These are important terms to remember because they are used elsewhere in the New Testament, and wherever one find them they are referring to praying in tongues. Whenever the term gift of tongues is used it is referring to the prophetic utterance gift.

The confusion occurs because sometimes the term ‘tongue(s)’ is used, or ‘speaking in toungues‘ (which can mean either form) and you have to determine from the context whether or not the writer is referring to the gift of tongues or praying in tongues. In some cases it is referring to both, because they operate similarly.

In conclusion, not everyone will operate prophetically in the gift of tongues and interpretation (god speaking directly to man in an unknown language). On this the scriptures are quite clear.

But the question remains, who is able to pray in tongues (mans spirit speaking directly to god in an unknown language)?



Let me add here that in an earlier post one said that there are not two kinds of tongues, but rather two operations of tongues.

I don't necesszarily disagree with you on this. I've thought about it for awhile and can't really see the practical difference between saying that there is one tongues with two different operations or two differnt kinds of tongues that operate differently.

I am a teacher and am usually a stickler for semantics, but in this case I can't really see a practical difference.

God bless...

Perhaps you should not draw such a clear line of demarcation.

Paul also says that the prayer tongue can be interpreted and not just (using your construct) the prophetic tongue.

 

[Optimax]

There were no interpreters in acts 2, hence we have three identified uses of the gift of tongues,.

-The tongue that is understood by another in his/her language without the speaker knowing it. (Most of Acts 2, 1 Cor 14:22)

-The tongue that speaks mysteries in the Spirit or termed "the tongue of angels" by Paul, ie our prayer language. (1 Cor 131:1)

-The tongue that The Holy Spirit speaks supernaturally in a service that must be interpreted by another with the gift of interpretation. (1 Cor 14:26-27)

In Acts 2 those who heard and understood were the interpreters.

However, you guys go ahead with the discussion. This is one I withdraw from.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Grace and peace unto you from our God and Lord. That is way to go, Brucea. There is every thing right with healthy disagreements. Discussions engender agreements and disagreements, don’t they?

There is a difference between a man praying IN the Spirit and the same man praying WITH the Spirit.

To pray in the Spirit pre-supposes that the one praying has entered the Spirit (like John was in the Spirit). In that example, John spoke and recorded what the Spirit (and our Lord Jesus Christ) told gave while he was in the Spirit.

To pray WITH the Spirit pre-supposes praying alongside the Spirit; He prays and your spirit prays or agrees to what He prays by your believing and saying Amen. When your spirit prays in a tongue and the tongue you pray with is unknown, it makes no sense and becomes unfruitful because you cannot understand what you say. In this case you are speaking into the air; you become a barbarian unto yourself and others around you (1 Cor. 14:7-9) because your understanding is unfruitful.

I’ll split my response to you into two consecutive posts (starting with this one you are reading). Reason is to make it short and easily understood.

First, let me give you a peek into Paul's understanding when he taught and wrote what he did about praying in/with tongues.

Praying in the Spirit of God is praying in what things make up the Spirit of God. Actually, it is the Spirit praying through you. If the Spirit does not want to speak through you as He is praying for you, He may intercede for you. In the later (intercession), He does not speak but groans that cannot be uttered (spoken as speech). Intercession is taking your place and going through the motions you are going through in order to secure power for your deliverance. That is what Jesus Christ did at Calvary on our behalf – that is, intercede for us.

There are seven things that make up the Spirit and understanding is one of them. If you want straight biblical explanation about how they derive, let me know. It will make a very long post to start explaining now. Perhaps, you know already and an explanation is unnecessary.

Suffice to state that other things constituting the Spirit are:

• • The Spirit of God (again, understanding how this comes about is the cornerstone/blueprint to understanding Paul’s and God’s worldview that led to all that is written in the Scripture. No man can accurate interpret or understand the Bible without this revelation);
  • Spirit of wisdom and spirit of understanding;
  • Spirit of counsel and spirit of might;
  • Spirit of knowledge and spirit of the fear of God.

Languages (tongues) are not parts of what make the Spirit. However, the Spirit (testifies) speaks to minister Himself on EVERY MAN so that they can profit on earth. He speaks so that He can be understood by all men on earth. Language is given as a set of words that express and deliver those things that constitute the Spirit.

You will notice that all gifts of the Spirit are according to the above that constitute the Spirit... as the Spirit cannot give what He does not have or is made up of:

• • Words of wisdom from spirit of wisdom
  • Words of knowledge from spirit of knowledge
  • Prophecy from the Spirit of God
  • Working of miracles from Spirit of God
  • Faith from Spirit of God
  • Etc, etc.

Because you were made in the image of God, your spirit is a unity (and made up of) your wisdom, understanding, counsel, might, knowledge and your honor. These are your spiritual faculties for the spirit realm, just like hearing, touching, smelling, tasting and sight are your physical faculties for the physical realm.

If you (your spirit or your inner man) speaks without its understanding faculty, you will make no sense to yourself or any one that hears what you say. Why? Because you cannot articulate anything sensible without understanding what you are saying. That is exactly what Paul tries to explain as it relates to understanding in the Spirit (see 1 Cor. 14).

Language is what articulates/expresses various words and works of the Spirit (and your spirit). And the Spirit MUST always express/manifest Himself for every man present to profit when He speaks. Otherwise, He will contradict Himself and what Apostle Paul taught.

If there is a manifestation of the Spirit and EVERY MAN present does not profit in understanding and in all other things that make up the Spirit, it is not the Spirit of God that is manifesting, period. How can a man profit who does not understand what the Spirit is saying? He cannot!

If it is only one man present and he is speaking by the Spirit, the Spirit is duty bound to give him understanding or an interpreter. God is very orderly and He has no reason to show off His pure language when the beneficiary is not profiting. He is not childish or carnal.

So, to pray IN the Spirit means to pray in the Spirit of the God, wisdom, understanding, counsel, might, knowledge and reverence of God. To pray short of any of these things that constitute the Spirit means praying short of the Spirit. That is not profitable at all. But in all thy getting, get understanding… because to pray with understanding is very beneficial as one understands what the Spirit is praying about/for.

If you are correct in saying that there is no scriptural definition of how to pray in the Spirit... why then are you saying that praying in the Spirit is same as praying in tongues when there is no scriptural definition?

continued in my next post

Um . . . the Greek preposition "en" is translated as "with/by/in" . . . so really there is no distinction grammatically.

I find your hypothesis interesting . . . however, without some strong contextual, linguistic and hermeneutical backing . . . it just remains interesting.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Continued from my last post on this thread.

How then did you come to this conclusion - that "praying with the spirit is praying in tongues"? First, you said there is no scriptural definition of “praying in the Spirit” and now you say “praying with the spirit is praying in tongues”? Neither Apostle Paul nor any scripture in the Bible has ever told you that!

Respectfully, I say – NO! That is not what is being said by any stretch of imagination.

To bless with the Spirit is to "empower" with the Spirit. Words (speech) constitute one way that the Spirit is ministered to bless (empower). Therefore, blessing (empowering) comes by words of God from the Spirit of the LORD, words of wisdom from the spirit of wisdom, words of knowledge from the spirit of knowledge, words of counsel from the spirit of counsel, words of strength (from the spirit of might), words of the reverence by which God is honored.

Paul, in 1 Cor. 14:16, is asking how a man who does not understand what the Spirit is praying (through the one speaking in an unknown tongue) know to say “Amen” (so shall it be) when he is being empowered (blessed). Saying "Amen" is a word of agreement... signifying that one being blessed (empowered) has believed to receive what is being said by the Spirit through who is speaking (in this case, an empowering from God is what is being spoken).

It is a good thing that you wrote "It seems to me Paul..." That is your speculation, I respectfully submit. But that is not what Paul meant or teaches. Paul spoke various languages of that day in the area he ministered. He’d rather speak five words with his understanding such that others listening to him might as well understand what he speaks and teaches. This is absolutely nothing to do with so-called “prayer language” that many have carnally developed.

For example, I speak in tongues and prophesy! Those and other gifts have been given to me. Yet, when the Spirit of God speaks through me in any congregation, I speak the language predominantly used in that congregation.

I have heard the Spirit speak to me before and I understand simultaneously in all tongues (languages) I speak. That is what Paul is teaching and talking about… not some adopted language that makes a barbarian out of the one speaking.

I have also heard Him (the Spirit) speak in a tongue I don't understand and immediately comes a translation in one of languages I understand.

My prayer language is, therefore, in any of tongues I speak or the pure language of the Spirit (that He speaks through me in part because I have obtained a token of the Spirit that speaks same language)... that is, when I am speaking WITH the Spirit. In any case, I speak with understanding… because He wants me to understand what He speaks and not to be a barbarian unto me.

It is true that there is the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues. Any one who denies that is completely wrong. But the gift is simply in form of a language(s) by which the Spirit communicates.

Again, that is not the issue of our discussion in this thread, is it? Folks led by Spirit pray in tongues that get interpreted for the understanding of other or for their own understanding. What is an age old "tradition" is the babbling of words that completely renders no spiritual profit… it is a long established carnal tradition that is common with “children”. There was I time I did the same thing until taught better by the Spirit. That “tradition” has lasted so long that many believe it is the right doctrine and many have founded denominations because of it. If a “tradition” founds a denomination, what is it but carnality.

There is no Biblical definition of praying in the Spirit as babbling "rabba ba shondo drrrrr mdddddddd sspppttt" unless such renders a definitive meaning in one language of this world or the pure language of God (see 1 Cor. 14:9-10). That barbaric voice (from Paul’s word/explanation) cannot be a sign unto the unbeliever... rather, it confuses the unbeliever and mocks the Spirit of God.

But a sign unto the unbeliever is when he steps into a congregation of believers and he hears folks who don't understand his language speak to his clear understanding. That is what happened in Acts 2. Again, what is edifying is when there is absolute understanding of what the Spirit says. What would have happened if the Bible was written in unknown tongues to convey the euphoria of spiritualism by those through whom the Spirit spoke? We’ll all be in trouble as the Scripture will mean nothing to the faithfuls.

Well, I don't see the relationship between above quote and the topic under discussion. In fact, you can extrapolate my explanation of praying in/with the Spirit to see what our Lord Jesus Christ meant by worshiping in the Spirit.

The best format for a clear understanding of what John 4:21-24 will demand understanding of some other basic things about Christ. This is not the right thread/place for that.

Blessings and much more grace unto you from our Lord Jesus Christ.

Um . . . tongues have nearly always (until about 100 years ago) been seen as unintelligible ecstatic speech.

What may seem as "babbling" to the observer . . . this is why an interpretation is needed in the assembly when non-believers or ungifted people are present . . . otherwise they will respond like the scoffers in Acts 2 . . . "they are all DRUNK!"

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Grace and peace unto you from God and from our Lord Jesus Christ!

It is wonderful to know that you are the litmus test of edification used by the Holy Spirit... such that anything that is not "edifying" to you is wrong. Hmm!!!!

Let's go down the memory lane before answering your question:

• Since the days of Prophets Ezekiel and Jeremaiah, folks to whom they prophesied felt same way and were not "edified" by what the Spirit spoke through the prophets. They were persecuted and abused.
• John the Baptist by the Holy Ghost was sent to prepare the way for Christ. Homeboys "flagged" him and Herod eventually beheaded him.
• Our Lord Jesus Christ, Himself the Spirit, came and preached from the same Torah that Israelis used. He gave them insights in ways they never heard or saw demonstrated. What happened? He did not "edify" status-quo ante and we know the rest of the story.
• The twelve disciples of Christ, by the Spirit preached what was different from teachings at Synagogues. Chief Priests et al lamblasted them, imprisoned and scorged them. Why? They did not "edify" the then present religious system, which by the way, earnestly believed they were serving God.
• Turn of the 20th Century and after when some started teaching and preaching about the Holy Spirit and His ways, many in the Churches persecuted, excommunicated and tried all things to railroad them.

So, the "flags" thrown at you by the "Holy Spirit" may very well have been misinterpreted by you: He convicts and He cuts (pricks) hearts. Now, it is left for the person convicted or whose heart is cut to go back to Him and say: "OK, Lord, what must I do"? Or, the person can say: "OK, Lord, if what is being taught is true, lead me to investigate and confirm".

Ah ah! The later is called humility and He is every ready to show and confirm. That, afterall, is His job. That way, spirituals can compare notes among themselves without resorting to "my Holy Spirit is better than yours".

I know how it feels when long held doctrines are challenged and rattled - it feels very, very bad. Often, the one with long held doctrine says: "if this wrong, then many things I believed by way of this doctrine is wrong". But, my friend, the journey to perfection, godliness and eternal life is predicated upon stepwise increase in knowledge; from childhood to maturity.

So, what I know today depending on my level of maturity in Christ is likely to change as I grow. Therefore, I set myself up to learn and be taught in higher/deeper things of God... knowing that I am yet to reach the mark and obtain the high prize of my calling, which is eternal life in Christ Jesus.

And often, the Holy Spirit does that to me also - He takes what I know and rips apart to show how like a child I believed and thought like a child.

Ask some of preachers today - they'll tell you there are some things revealed to them that they find uncomfortable speaking about... because it will either decimate the congregation, be rejected by the mainstream, cause funds to dry up, or time is not just right for them to release information and make money from book sales.

But we say what God wants us to say and when He wants it said. That sets many entrenched traditions and long held doctrines on spasms and spins... but we don't care a hoot, do we?

Now, Dave01, let's go back to your post seeking elaboration:

First, to be edified, you need have an open mind. If you reject God's word (the Bible) inspired by the Holy Spirit on face value without even studying, you will never be edified despite the fact that it is inspired by the Holy Spirit. You set yourself up to be edified by having an open mind to hear, investigate and confirm.

Second, I'll now elaborate on the section you requested.
I wrote: Go to Acts 2:5-12.

The devout men (nevertheless unbelievers pertaining to the doctrine of Christ) were confounded because every man understood the Galilaean speaking disciples in his own language. Mark you, the Spirit spoke through the disciples... not in babble, but in Galilaean language(s). But the devout men understood the Galilaean language(s) being spoken in their own native languages.

"They were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?"

Dave01, is that not consistent with what I wrote about unbelievers walking into a congregation and hear folks who do not understand/speak their languages say things that they understand?

Now, they (devout men visiting Jerusalem) could only be confounded, amazed and marvelled at a sign they saw and heard. A sign is a signal to, an indication of, or a precursor to another definite thing.

The sign was that disciples were speaking Galilaeans (language(s) of Galilee) - see Acts 2:7, yet the unbelieving devout men (after the Torah) heard what they were speaking in their own native languages.

That, Dave01, is amazing and marvelling... definitely a sign that something supernatural is taking place.

Now, Dave01, compare the reaction of the devout men after the Torah, most of them from gentile nations, to another set of "other" unbelievers (Acts 2:12): The other set of "others" mocked. Likely, they were locals from Judea. The homefront is always mean... just as "christians" act meanest among themselves, right? Right!

Apostle Peter had to stand up to explain why the sign that amazed and marvelled them happened. In the process of explaining, they (unbelievers) were pricked in their hearts (like you say you had flags thrown at you from my earlier post).

They (unbelievers), instead of harrassing Peter and disciples, sought for help. And they were helped - being added to the Church.

This, my friend, is the edification process of an unbeliver derived from story in Acts 2:

1. See or hear the sign (or teaching);
2. Say, what in the world is this all about and seek explanation;
3. Be pricked in the heart (have flags thrown all over your heart because some dynamics of the Spirit);
4. Believe (if explained correctly and consistent with Scripture);
5. Be set free and loose by the truth you've learned.
6. And life goes on.

Now, Dave01, if it is the easiest part to explain is what you want me to elaborate upon, who much more do you have difficulties with some other parts I know are "loaded" and "deep" and need a lot more elaboration/explanation with scriptures?

Um nope.

The text is clear . . . they spoke with OTHER tongues (in the Koine) . . . which is a CLEAR pronouncement by Luke that what they spoke (whether real langauges or unintelligible ecstatic speech) was COMPLETELY NEW TO THEM.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

dkbwarrior:
Grace and peace from God and His Christ to you!

Yes, I understand why you can be lost because of length of posts. I'll try my best now to make it concise.

Now, here is the summary about the language (tongue):

1. There is a pure language of God with which He speaks and He gives by faith (as a promise) for the generation of eternal life - Zeph. 3:8-9.
2. Because it is by faith, we receive as a promise. And because it comes by faith, the Spirit manifests that promised language in part through the gifts of the Spirit - some (as the Spirit decides) are able to speak, some (as the Spirit decides) are able to understand.
3. The pure language (tongue) has its two-fold purpose:
   • To be used in calling the name of the LORD
   • To bring all who use the language in one consent (mind) - that is, to unite all.

Summary as it relates to praying IN the Spirit:

1. When the Spirit is in someone, whatever the person does is said to be in the Spirit.
2. The Spirit takes predominance, by default, over the spirit of the man. In prayer/worship/singing, the Spirit prays/worships/sings through the man in the pure language.
3. The man praying can be heard in one of two ways:
   • In the pure language of the Spirit - that MUST be interpreted. That is why Paul one who speaks in an unknown tongue must also pray for interpretation.
   • In his own language - because the Spirit gives him immediate understanding of what He is saying in his (man's) language. This is what happened in Acts 2 when the Spirit spoke through the disciples and they were heard speaking in their native Galilaeans.

Summary of praying WITH the Spirit:

1. Praying alongside with the Spirit and agreeing with what He prays about.
2. If the Spirit speaks and the man praying with Him does not understand, the Spirit is like a barbarian to him and it is fruitless.
3. So, the Spirit speaks and gives understanding at the same time. It becomes profitable to the man WITH whom the Spirit prays.

Summary of why there MUST be understanding:

1. The Spirit is given to profit EVERY MAN - 1 Cor. 12:7.
2. When one or more do not profit from what the Spirit speaks, it is NOT from the Spirit of God. Reason is that if it were so, 1 Cor. 12:7 will be in vain, which says: "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal".
3. If I speak in a tongue and there is no interpretation, it is unprofitable to me and it cannot be of the Spirit... as the Spirit will not go against what He gave Paul to write in 1 Cor. 12:7.

Summary about any tongue (language) spoken:

1. It must call upon the name of the LORD. The name of the LORD encompasses many things in the presence of the LORD.
2. It must bring all to whom it is spoken in one accord
3. It must profit EVERY MAN present - including the one speaking. And profitability comes foremost by understanding what is being said.

There is no biblical support/implication (I challenge anyone to bring forth) that speaking in an unknown tongue without understanding is a prayer language between God and the one speaking.

Second part (in subsequent post) shall explain what constitutes the Spirit for the benefit of those who do not know.

The allusion of Paul to a dimension of the gift of tongues in operation outside the confines of the corporate church service . . . where Paul says EXPICITLY that the one speaking in tongues speaks not to men but to GOD. A prayer if you will . . . and something that, without interpretation, needs to be between the believer and God.

Challenge met.