Tongues as Private Prayer Language

[Julian of Norwich]

I haven't read all the works of the early church father's, but I don't remember any of them speaking about praying in tongues/in the Spirit.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I haven't read all the works of the early church father's, but I don't remember any of them speaking about praying in tongues/in the Spirit.

It seems to have been a total non-issue until the rise of certain Pietist groups in the seventeenth century. It took off with the nineteenth century with Mormonism and some Wesleyan groups.

 

[Nova2216]

God knows our thoughts, why would we need to speak in another tongue?

This one point tells me it is incorrect.

God is not an unbeliever? (1Cor.14:22)

 

[Major1]

I'm having trouble seeing how Scripture teaches the idea that there is such a thing as praying in tongues as some sort of private prayer language where Christians speak non-sensical syllables that is the result of the Holy Spirit.

Before I get into why, let me make a quick disclaimer. I've spent a good bit of time, on and off over the past few months reading and studying on this issue. I've done this at work, where I don't have dedicated time, nor was I meaning to share my thoughts with others. Therefore, the notes I took, I took on a Word document, and a lot of times I copy/pasted from websites. Therefore, there is a good chance that things I copy/paste from my notes are not my words. So i'm sure i'll be plagiarizing thoughts in this post.

I think the best thing to do is look at Acts as a starting place for this issue. In the book of Acts, we have the primary Pentecost event, which takes place in Acts 2. This particular section actually makes it really clear that the speaking in tongues is, without a doubt, speaking other known languages.

What I do find interesting is that some people attempt to claim that the miracle wasn't actually a miracle of speaking, but a miracle of hearing. I disagree with this interpretation, as I don't think it accurately accounts for verse 2:13 where some people accused them of being drunk. I like to play things out. So let's play it out.

If this were a miracle of hearing, and everyone present (people who spoke different dialects of Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Arabic, potentially Asian languages), all heard anything any of the apostles spoke in their own language - that would sound normal. By normal, I mean it wouldn't be confusing. There would be no reason to accuse them of being drunk.

However, if it was a miracle of speaking, then verse 13 makes sense. If the Spirit gave to some the gift of speaking Arab, and some the gift of speaking Latin, and some the gift of speaking an Asian language, then while it may have been the case that everyone present was able to hear speaking in their native language, it would still seem potentially confusing because they also heard someone like Peter speaking Arabic, which would be odd. That would make sense then why some people would accuse them of speaking non-sense and being drunk.

So what I think we have in Acts 2 is the Holy Spirit making Himself known, indwelling the Believers, and giving them the gift of speaking tongues. All present heard about the "mighty deeds of God" in their own language, by the people that were gifted to speak their own language.

Thus, we have the first instance of speaking in tongues, which is done primarily as a sign to unbelievers.

Moving on from there, we essentially have 3 other Pentecostal events that take place in Acts. What stands out to me about these is how they line up with what Jesus said in Acts 1:8 about being His disciples in Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest parts of the earth.

So what we have at the first Pentecost is that it takes place among the Jews. Then if you look at the other 3 Pentecostal events, you'll see that one takes place with the Samaritans, one takes place with the God Fearers (converted Gentiles), and finally one takes place in Ephesus with Gentiles.

Thus, what we have in Acts in relation to the gift of speaking in tongues is that God is demonstrating that the new Covenant has expanded to include all people. Furthermore, when the Holy Spirit came and people spoke in tongues, it was always in another known language of the people.

For me, that's the foundation of speaking in tongues. The question I then have is how do we make the leap from what we see in Acts to the notion that tongues becomes some sort of private prayer language for the edification of the person praying, when that isn't what we actually see take place.

Romans 8:26 - Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered..

Romans 8:26 is interpreted by many to support the belief that “praying in tongues” is an experience where a person prays in an otherwise unknown language that the speaker does not understand. This passage is used to support this belief by arguing that this passage describes what happens when we pray in tongues. This interpretation is problematic for two reasons:

1) It is the Spirit that groans, not Believers.

2) The groans of the Spirit cannot be uttered. Speaking in tongues is uttering words. Words are expressed and uttered.


A better interpretation would be that the reason we do not know what to pray and require the Spirit to intercede can be because:

1) We do not know what would be really best for us.

2) We do not know what God might be willing to grant us.

3) We are to a great extent ignorant of the character of God, the reason of his dealings, and our own real needs.

4) We are often in real, deep perplexity. We are encompassed with trials, exposed to temptations, feeble by disease, and subject to calamities. In these circumstances, if left alone, we would neither be able to bear our trials, nor know what to ask at the hand of God.

The word used for intercession here is found nowhere else in the NT. However, a similar word is used several times, and it means to be present with anyone for the purpose of aiding, as an advocate does in a court of justice. This is what the Spirit does for us. It means that the Spirit greatly assists or aids us, not by praying for us, but in our prayers.

With regards to cannot be uttered, perhaps, which is not uttered; those emotions which are too deep for utterance, or for expression in articulate language. This does not mean that the Spirit produces these groanings; but that in these deep-felt emotions, when the soul is oppressed and overwhelmed, he lends us his assistance and sustains us. The phrase may be thus translated: “The Spirit greatly aids or supports us in those deep emotions, those intense feelings, those inward sighs which cannot be expressed in language, but which he enables us to bear, and which are understood by Him that searcheth the hearts.”

I think that is enough to start a conversation. Thoughts are more than welcome on this.

There are four primary Scripture passages that are cited as evidence for praying in tongues:
1. Romans 8:26;
2. 1 Corinthians 14:4-17;
3. Ephesians 6:18; and
4. Jude verse 20.

Ephesians 6:18 and Jude 20 mention “praying in the Spirit” which actually NOT in "Tongues". However, tongues as a prayer language is not a likely interpretation of “praying in the Spirit.”

Romans 8:26 teaches us, ......
“In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.”

Two key points make it highly unlikely that Romans 8:26 is referring to tongues as a prayer language.

1. Romans 8:26 states that it is the Spirit who “groans,” not believers.

2. Romans 8:26 states that the “groans” of the Spirit “cannot be expressed.”
The very essence of speaking in tongues is uttering words.

That leaves us with 1 Corinthians 14:4-17 and verse 14 especially:.......
“For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.”

First Corinthians 14:14 distinctly mentions “praying in tongues.”

What does this mean?

First, studying the context is immensely valuable. First Corinthians chapter 14 is primarily a comparison/contrast of the gift of speaking in tongues and the gift of prophecy. It is actually a CORRECTIVE chapter to fix the problem of speaking in tongues in the Corinthian church.

Verses 2-5 make it clear that Paul views prophecy as a gift superior to tongues.

 

[Major1]

Richard, thank you for your response. I can often come across combative, but at least in this discussion, I'm not trying to be. I want nothing less than to hold to proper theology, and the last thing I would want to do is discount or deny the work of the Holy Spirit. Especially since I go to an AOG Church at the moment, I'm trying to do my due diligence on this. You mention 3 different instances of speaking in tongues here. I think the first two are mentioned in Scripture, and I think they both would be understood as foreign languages. As for conversing in an unknown tongue with another person, are you suggesting that both speakers are speaking in tongues and that neither of them know what they are saying to each other? If so, that sounds like one of the things Paul would be speaking against, as there would be no interpreter.

Yea, if I was robbing a Taco Bell and someone did that, I would probably be like "what the crap" and get out of there too. Most people who rob places are actually cowards who have no intention of utilizing any weapon they may have in hand.

Anyway, again, thanks for the conversation. But I'm still fairly convinced that one of the main parts of the new covenant is that all Believers are immediately indwelled and filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit then gives gifts as He chooses, for the edification of the Church.

I see the 4 Pentecost events of Acts to be a unique, perhaps not wise to use as a standard example, event that displayed in candid fashion how the Holy Spirit had come as Jesus said - to all people. First to the Jews, then we saw it go to the Samaritans, God Fearers, and Gentiles. The gift of the Spirit was poured out on all who came to Believe.

Speaking and praying in tongues was an amazing work of the Spirit, which was a sign to unbelievers, in which Christians spoke a foreign language, that was then to be interpreted by someone.

Dear SPF, speaking in tounges is pretty much like everything else in life---
"If it feels good it must be good".

Then there is the other explanation that I saw momma do it and if she did it it has to be Biblical.

So then, what do we say, then, about the many Christians who have experienced praying in tongues or speaking in tongues and find it to be very personally edifying?

I and no one I know wants to argue the point or be rude or hurtful if we say that the tongues of today are not valid.

First, it is of the most importance that we always base our faith and practice on Scripture, not experience. We must view our experiences in light of Scripture, not interpret Scripture in light of our experiences.

Second, many of the cults and world religions steeped in Paganism also report occurrences of speaking in tongues/praying in tongues. Obviously the Holy Spirit is not gifting these unbelieving individuals.

So, it seems that the demons are able to counterfeit the gift of speaking in tongues.
That fact right there should give everyone who speaks in tongues a concern.
This should cause us to compare even more carefully our experiences with Scripture.

Third, studies have shown how speaking/praying in tongues can be and usually is a learned behavior. Through hearing and observing others speak in tongues, a person can learn the procedure, even subconsciously. This is the most likely explanation for the vast majority of instances of speaking/praying in tongues among Christians. Or as some say....."monkey see monkey do".

60 years ago as a young teenager in a Pentecostal Assembly of God church where my parents attended, when I accepted Christ, the very next thing that happened was that I was placed into a new members class and was TAUGHT hoe to speak in "tongues".

Fourth, the feeling of “self-edification” is natural. The human body produces adrenaline and endorphins when it experiences something new, exciting, emotional, and/or disconnected from rational thought. In other words...."Experiences directed emotions which then Looks for a Bible doctrine to follow".

IF there is NO Bible doctrine that is valid, we then just make one up to fit what we WANT TO DO.

Why???........Because it feels good!!!!!

 

[Major1]

Yes, I responded to the first paragraph before reading the entire post.


The bible does indeed teach "it is a real thing". (1 Cor 14:17-19)
It is real in my life too.

The bible does indeed teach "it is a real thing". (1 Cor 14:17-19)
It is real in my life too.

Actually Phil.....1 Corth, 14:17-19 says that Paul is glad that HE speaks in tongues more than them.

Contextually we must remember that Paul was an Apostle and he had ALL of the sign gifts that Christ gave to the disciples in Mark 16. They ALL could speak in tongues, heal the sick, raise the dead, survive snake bites and drink dirty water.

Those gifts and abilities were given to THEM not us today.

 

[Major1]

You have some good info on tongues though I do respectfully disagree with some of the conclusions and potential omissions. it is often thought that the translators have trouble distinguishing between human spirit and the Holy Spirit as both use the Greek word pnuema. Romans 8 is a potential example of this and makes more sense if you examine the words in ( ). that I have added.
Romans 8:26-28 (KJV)
26 Likewise the (Holy) Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the (human) Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Think about it, if the Holy Spirit were making intercession for us, then am I wrong to suggest the results are not that stellar? No, it seems more likely that it is our human spirit, empowered by the Holy Spirit, through tongues that not only makes the intercession, but causes all things to work together for our good. If the results are not stellar, it is because we are not exercising our human spirit to make the intercession. Otherwise, why would we need to pray at all the holy Spirit is making intercession for us, wouldn't that be enough?

27 And he (God) that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the (human) Spirit, because he (human) maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Verse 27 makes little sense that God searches his own spirit, and then makes intercession according to His will.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:26 (YLT)

Romans 8 is just the icing on the cake for this issue. I admit it just one interpretation, but it makes far more sense than how the translators use the same word pnuema for the human spirit versus the Holy Spirit.

The best evidence goes back to Jesus in the book of John. John 4:13-14 (KJV)
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Ok, so here we have the born again experience, notice the well of water. Now compare the well with the experience of the Holy Spirit.
John 7:37-39 (KJV)
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Here we have the Holy Spirit being given to the born again believer. it is no longer just a well, it is now "rivers of living water." Where are they coming from? A believer's belly. This is the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Ok, now how about Acts? You suggest there are 3 scriptures that speak of tongues. Yes, there are 3 direct references but two other references that have outward signs of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2

Acts 8:14-18 (KJV)
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Here we likely have tongues. It is some outward sign or Simon would not have seen it. Evidence too that one can be a believer (well spring up to eternal life) and not the baptism of the Holy Spirit (rivers overflowing).

Acts 10:44-46 (KJV)
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Acts 11:14-16 (KJV)
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
It does not directly say tongues here but why would one think otherwise? The Holy Ghost fell just as the beginning (Acts 2).

Acts 19:6-7 (KJV)
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve. If you notice earlier these were men who believed on Jesus, but had not heard of the Holy Ghost. It was preached and they received it.

We all should agree that spiritual gifts should be desired, though obviously not as much as love.

1 Corinthians 14:1-2 (KJV)
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Corinthians 12:31 (KJV)
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Jude 1:20 (KJV)
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Since tongues are said to be for edification, Jude most likely is including tongues.

I could go on about the differences of the gift called "various kinds of tongues" and the personal prayer language speaking in tongues." While either could be gibberish, a Christian praying in faith, in tongues will make a difference. It will not give them fruit of the spirit, but the whole purpose of the Holy Spirit to be given in addition to the born again experience is to receive power to witness.

Acts 1:8 (KJV)
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Lets be honest, where does one see the most healings, deliverances and salvations in the church today? Mostly in those (including catholics) who speak in tongues and exercise the gifts. Just as you would expect from scriptures. I am not boasting about this, nor am I suggesting that all groups who do this are great followers of Christ. It is where the power is though.

Richard, I am glad to see you posting Scriptures. It is always better to speak to them than to our opinions.

May I first say, I do not intend to argue the point with you on tongues. I would though like to point out several things.

Romans 8:26, in fact says nothing about speaking in tongues.

It says....."The Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

That is the SPIRIT not the individual and then it says...."Which cannot be uttered".
That then is the opposite of speaking in tongues.

Then you used John 4:13-14 (KJV), but here again there is no mention of speaking in tongues in that Scripture.

Then you used John 7:37-39 (KJV), but once again there is no mention of speaking in tongues.....only the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
To make it say speaking in tongues is forcing something which is not the context of those Scriptures.

Now we have Acts 8:14-18 (KJV), but again, there is NO mention of speaking in tongues. "They received the Holy Ghost".

Your thought was......."Here we likely have tongues."
I am sorry my brother but that is really bad exegesis of Scriptures. IF it aint there it aint there.

Then Acts 10:44-46 (KJV) actually says that It was Peter with the Apostles who were speaking and the "Gentiles" heard and understood in their OWN language.

Then we have Acts 11:14-16 (KJV) and again we see that there is NO mention of tongues and the filling of the Holy Ghost does not mean speaking in tongues.

Then you used 1 Corinthians 12:31 (KJV) and again we see that tongues is not mentioned.

Then we have Jude 1:20 (KJV) and again we see that speaking in tongues is not mentioned.

Then finally we have Acts 1:8 (KJV) and again when we read that Scripture it is clear that speaking in tongues is not mentioned.

I understand that someone who wants to speak in tongues would feel the need to read his wants into those Scriptures but when that is done, we have made a really unfortunate error of exegesis which will lead to incorrect Bible doctrine.

Our "emotions" can not be allowed to form our Bible Doctrines.

 

[Richard T]

Thanks for taking the time to write an excellent response in a gentle spirit. As to these scriptures, here is where I am coming from.
Romans 8:26, in fact says nothing about speaking in tongues.

Romans 8:26-27 (KJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

In this text, it does not make sense that God is searching the mind of the Holy Spirit. Thus v 27 should be assumed to be human spirit. Also v26, the second mention of Spirit is likely our human spirit. If it was the Holy Spirit just making the intercession for us, then how can we explain all the bad outcomes? For God to make all things work together for good, it is the Holy Spirit, helping us pray in the human spirit, in tongues, groaning the will of God for us in our lives and producing the all things work together. That is the way I was taught those verses and though perhaps not mainstream, certainly a viable and more logical interpretation.

Then you used John 4:13-14 (KJV), but here again there is no mention of speaking in tongues in that Scripture.

The scriptures in John are interesting. Taken together, they are not both talking about the born again experience. John 4:13 is about being born again, and describes the well of water spring up to eternal life. John 7:37 though we move on to talk about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is earmarked for believers.."he that believeth on me" and talks about "out of your belly shall flow rivers of living water" This is the overflowing of the Holy Spirit, with outward signs as often is found in Acts. You are right it does not say speaking in tongues directly. However, it does not exclude this interpretation either. The same can be said for Jude 1:20 (KJV) 20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost. This seems to perfectly correlate with 1 Corinthians 14:4 (KJV) 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;

Acts 8:14 helps in that these were born again and baptized believers, that did not have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. So Peter and John went there and while no tongues are mentioned, there was something clearly visible that Simon saw through the laying on of hands. So what is that outward sign? The only thing logical is prophecy, tongues or both.

In Acts 10:44, it could not just have been Peter. The Holy Ghost fell on the gentiles, they received the gift of the Holy Spirit, the baptism.
Acts 10:46-47 (KJV) 46 For they heard them (the gentiles) speak with tongues, and magnify God.
Because the gentiles spoke in tongues, they were now allowed to be baptized. Basically this outlines three possibilities that exist today. (1) born again, (2) baptized in water, (3) baptized in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues. While you need only to be born again for salvation, most opt for the baptism in water, and many do experience the baptism in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking on tongues.

Acts 19:6 (KJV)
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Taken together these scriptures do seem to logically present a case for the baptism of the Holy Spirit for every believer. Of course, this creates alternative interpretations of certain scriptures but so do many church doctrines do have several diverging paths; from once save always saved, to end time scenarios. So if the subject of tongues has different paths, it is really no surprise. Tongues, does not make the believer better in themselves, there is nothing to boast. It is given to have power to be a witness. This power seems evident as the churches that generally have more growth and outward signs are Charismatic in nature, even including the Catholic Charismatics.

I did find some common ground of this discussion within the Catholic context. The author, whom I do not agree with entirely, does address many of the same issues. Library : A Closer Look at Charismatic Renewal

I do wish you the best and am glad you are grounded in the word of God, and seem to have studied it further and deeper than I. Still, I would not discount experience and diversity in the things of God though. God bless

 

[Nova2216]

Thanks for taking the time to write an excellent response in a gentle spirit. As to these scriptures, here is where I am coming from.
Romans 8:26, in fact says nothing about speaking in tongues.

Romans 8:26-27 (KJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

In this text, it does not make sense that God is searching the mind of the Holy Spirit. Thus v 27 should be assumed to be human spirit. Also v26, the second mention of Spirit is likely our human spirit. If it was the Holy Spirit just making the intercession for us, then how can we explain all the bad outcomes? For God to make all things work together for good, it is the Holy Spirit, helping us pray in the human spirit, in tongues, groaning the will of God for us in our lives and producing the all things work together. That is the way I was taught those verses and though perhaps not mainstream, certainly a viable and more logical interpretation.

Then you used John 4:13-14 (KJV), but here again there is no mention of speaking in tongues in that Scripture.

The scriptures in John are interesting. Taken together, they are not both talking about the born again experience. John 4:13 is about being born again, and describes the well of water spring up to eternal life. John 7:37 though we move on to talk about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is earmarked for believers.."he that believeth on me" and talks about "out of your belly shall flow rivers of living water" This is the overflowing of the Holy Spirit, with outward signs as often is found in Acts. You are right it does not say speaking in tongues directly. However, it does not exclude this interpretation either. The same can be said for Jude 1:20 (KJV) 20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost. This seems to perfectly correlate with 1 Corinthians 14:4 (KJV) 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;

Acts 8:14 helps in that these were born again and baptized believers, that did not have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. So Peter and John went there and while no tongues are mentioned, there was something clearly visible that Simon saw through the laying on of hands. So what is that outward sign? The only thing logical is prophecy, tongues or both.

In Acts 10:44, it could not just have been Peter. The Holy Ghost fell on the gentiles, they received the gift of the Holy Spirit, the baptism.
Acts 10:46-47 (KJV) 46 For they heard them (the gentiles) speak with tongues, and magnify God.
Because the gentiles spoke in tongues, they were now allowed to be baptized. Basically this outlines three possibilities that exist today. (1) born again, (2) baptized in water, (3) baptized in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues. While you need only to be born again for salvation, most opt for the baptism in water, and many do experience the baptism in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking on tongues.

Acts 19:6 (KJV)
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Taken together these scriptures do seem to logically present a case for the baptism of the Holy Spirit for every believer. Of course, this creates alternative interpretations of certain scriptures but so do many church doctrines do have several diverging paths; from once save always saved, to end time scenarios. So if the subject of tongues has different paths, it is really no surprise. Tongues, does not make the believer better in themselves, there is nothing to boast. It is given to have power to be a witness. This power seems evident as the churches that generally have more growth and outward signs are Charismatic in nature, even including the Catholic Charismatics.

I did find some common ground of this discussion within the Catholic context. The author, whom I do not agree with entirely, does address many of the same issues. Library : A Closer Look at Charismatic Renewal

I do wish you the best and am glad you are grounded in the word of God, and seem to have studied it further and deeper than I. Still, I would not discount experience and diversity in the things of God though. God bless

Ac 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given,...

(Acts 6:6 ; 8:18,19 ; 19:1-6) tells us how the gifts were passed on to INDIVIDUALS (person to person).

In (Acts 2 / 10) the Lord baptized groups of people with the Holy Spirit

What happens when the apostles died? (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18,19)

Miracles ceased (1Cor.13:8-10) (Zech.13:1,2)(Eph.4:11-15)

 

[Major1]

Thanks for taking the time to write an excellent response in a gentle spirit. As to these scriptures, here is where I am coming from.
Romans 8:26, in fact says nothing about speaking in tongues.

Romans 8:26-27 (KJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

In this text, it does not make sense that God is searching the mind of the Holy Spirit. Thus v 27 should be assumed to be human spirit. Also v26, the second mention of Spirit is likely our human spirit. If it was the Holy Spirit just making the intercession for us, then how can we explain all the bad outcomes? For God to make all things work together for good, it is the Holy Spirit, helping us pray in the human spirit, in tongues, groaning the will of God for us in our lives and producing the all things work together. That is the way I was taught those verses and though perhaps not mainstream, certainly a viable and more logical interpretation.

Then you used John 4:13-14 (KJV), but here again there is no mention of speaking in tongues in that Scripture.

The scriptures in John are interesting. Taken together, they are not both talking about the born again experience. John 4:13 is about being born again, and describes the well of water spring up to eternal life. John 7:37 though we move on to talk about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is earmarked for believers.."he that believeth on me" and talks about "out of your belly shall flow rivers of living water" This is the overflowing of the Holy Spirit, with outward signs as often is found in Acts. You are right it does not say speaking in tongues directly. However, it does not exclude this interpretation either. The same can be said for Jude 1:20 (KJV) 20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost. This seems to perfectly correlate with 1 Corinthians 14:4 (KJV) 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;

Acts 8:14 helps in that these were born again and baptized believers, that did not have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. So Peter and John went there and while no tongues are mentioned, there was something clearly visible that Simon saw through the laying on of hands. So what is that outward sign? The only thing logical is prophecy, tongues or both.

In Acts 10:44, it could not just have been Peter. The Holy Ghost fell on the gentiles, they received the gift of the Holy Spirit, the baptism.
Acts 10:46-47 (KJV) 46 For they heard them (the gentiles) speak with tongues, and magnify God.
Because the gentiles spoke in tongues, they were now allowed to be baptized. Basically this outlines three possibilities that exist today. (1) born again, (2) baptized in water, (3) baptized in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues. While you need only to be born again for salvation, most opt for the baptism in water, and many do experience the baptism in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking on tongues.

Acts 19:6 (KJV)
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Taken together these scriptures do seem to logically present a case for the baptism of the Holy Spirit for every believer. Of course, this creates alternative interpretations of certain scriptures but so do many church doctrines do have several diverging paths; from once save always saved, to end time scenarios. So if the subject of tongues has different paths, it is really no surprise. Tongues, does not make the believer better in themselves, there is nothing to boast. It is given to have power to be a witness. This power seems evident as the churches that generally have more growth and outward signs are Charismatic in nature, even including the Catholic Charismatics.

I did find some common ground of this discussion within the Catholic context. The author, whom I do not agree with entirely, does address many of the same issues. Library : A Closer Look at Charismatic Renewal

I do wish you the best and am glad you are grounded in the word of God, and seem to have studied it further and deeper than I. Still, I would not discount experience and diversity in the things of God though. God bless

Thank my brother for the kind words. I would not say I know more than anyone else. I was raised in the Pentecostal religion and as I grew older and began to read the Bible, certain things just did not make sense to me.

Tongues, or as I witnessed them being done were just random utterances which made no sense. Then as I began to grow and went to Christian seminary, I made it a priority to learn what was going on.

As I understand them, it was the Apostles who did the tongue speaking because they were the ones who were given the "sign gifts" by the Lord Jesus for the purpose of spreading the gospel to the know world then.

The Bible actually does tell us the the filling of the Holy Ghost is the baptism of that Spirit BUT it does not say that we then are able to speak in tongues.

The apostle Paul makes plain, believers are “all baptized by one Spirit into one body” is seen in 1 Corinthians 12:13, yet not all who believe speak in tongues (vv. 10, 30). Thus tongues may be a manifestation of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but tongues cannot be the manifestation.

I have no desire to anger anyone, but after what I am about to post, it uselly brings out the anger in those who WANT to speak in tongues. I hope no one gets angry at this but............

So then, my observations and study have shown that speaking in the tongues we see today is simply the need for people to be close to God and they FEEL that this is one way to manifest in their body what they feel in their hearts. Their emotions overtake their minds in other words.

The normative sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not speaking in tongues but the confession of Jesus Christ as Lord, repentance from sin, and obedience to God.

Now just to make the point, allow me to post Mark 16:14-15 which is the Great Commission given to the Apostles by Jesus......
"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

We do not have apostles or prophets today as we have the finished and complete Word of God.

Now just to confirm this lets read what the Apostle to the Gentiles said in 1 Corinthians 13:8-10.........
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

THAT which is perfect IMHO is the completed Word of God. It can NOT be Jesus Christ as in the original Greek the phrase...."which is perfect is come, " is written in the NEUTER which means that subject must be A THING INSTEAD OF A PERSON.

A joy to speak with you. Be safe !

 

[Major1]

Ac 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given,...

(Acts 6:6 ; 8:18,19 ; 19:1-6) tells us how the gifts were passed on to INDIVIDUALS (person to person).

In (Acts 2 / 10) the Lord baptized groups of people with the Holy Spirit

What happens when the apostles died? (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18,19)

Miracles ceased (1Cor.13:8-10) (Zech.13:1,2)(Eph.4:11-15)

You are very correct brother. 1 Corth. 13:8-10 proves your post........
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

 

[Major1]

Thanks for taking the time to write an excellent response in a gentle spirit. As to these scriptures, here is where I am coming from.
Romans 8:26, in fact says nothing about speaking in tongues.

Romans 8:26-27 (KJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

In this text, it does not make sense that God is searching the mind of the Holy Spirit. Thus v 27 should be assumed to be human spirit. Also v26, the second mention of Spirit is likely our human spirit. If it was the Holy Spirit just making the intercession for us, then how can we explain all the bad outcomes? For God to make all things work together for good, it is the Holy Spirit, helping us pray in the human spirit, in tongues, groaning the will of God for us in our lives and producing the all things work together. That is the way I was taught those verses and though perhaps not mainstream, certainly a viable and more logical interpretation.

Then you used John 4:13-14 (KJV), but here again there is no mention of speaking in tongues in that Scripture.

The scriptures in John are interesting. Taken together, they are not both talking about the born again experience. John 4:13 is about being born again, and describes the well of water spring up to eternal life. John 7:37 though we move on to talk about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is earmarked for believers.."he that believeth on me" and talks about "out of your belly shall flow rivers of living water" This is the overflowing of the Holy Spirit, with outward signs as often is found in Acts. You are right it does not say speaking in tongues directly. However, it does not exclude this interpretation either. The same can be said for Jude 1:20 (KJV) 20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost. This seems to perfectly correlate with 1 Corinthians 14:4 (KJV) 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;

Acts 8:14 helps in that these were born again and baptized believers, that did not have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. So Peter and John went there and while no tongues are mentioned, there was something clearly visible that Simon saw through the laying on of hands. So what is that outward sign? The only thing logical is prophecy, tongues or both.

In Acts 10:44, it could not just have been Peter. The Holy Ghost fell on the gentiles, they received the gift of the Holy Spirit, the baptism.
Acts 10:46-47 (KJV) 46 For they heard them (the gentiles) speak with tongues, and magnify God.
Because the gentiles spoke in tongues, they were now allowed to be baptized. Basically this outlines three possibilities that exist today. (1) born again, (2) baptized in water, (3) baptized in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues. While you need only to be born again for salvation, most opt for the baptism in water, and many do experience the baptism in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking on tongues.

Acts 19:6 (KJV)
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Taken together these scriptures do seem to logically present a case for the baptism of the Holy Spirit for every believer. Of course, this creates alternative interpretations of certain scriptures but so do many church doctrines do have several diverging paths; from once save always saved, to end time scenarios. So if the subject of tongues has different paths, it is really no surprise. Tongues, does not make the believer better in themselves, there is nothing to boast. It is given to have power to be a witness. This power seems evident as the churches that generally have more growth and outward signs are Charismatic in nature, even including the Catholic Charismatics.

I did find some common ground of this discussion within the Catholic context. The author, whom I do not agree with entirely, does address many of the same issues. Library : A Closer Look at Charismatic Renewal

I do wish you the best and am glad you are grounded in the word of God, and seem to have studied it further and deeper than I. Still, I would not discount experience and diversity in the things of God though. God bless

You post said.........
"This power seems evident as the churches that generally have more growth and outward signs are Charismatic in nature, even including the Catholic Charismatics."

I would say in my opinion that what you said is due mainly to the fact that those churches adopted a "Contemporary" style of worship which plays to the sensual side of all humans. "We like to be entertained"!!!!

It is all about the rhythm of the drums and the outward production of instruments in worship services that speaks to the base of humans. It is almost like attending a Rolling Stones concert.

At some point the worship stops going to God and begins to speak to the person instead.

In about 2003, I attended a Southern Baptist convention in Orlando Fl. The leaders there were told that they had to change their worship styles from Traditional to Contemporary or they would not survive. WHY?????

People wanted to be entertained!!!! What is the problem with that. It sounds good but...
2 Timothy 4:1-4 warns us......
"I charge thee therefore before God, and the LORD Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

 

[bbbbbbb]

You post said.........
"This power seems evident as the churches that generally have more growth and outward signs are Charismatic in nature, even including the Catholic Charismatics."

I would say in my opinion that what you said is due mainly to the fact that those churches adopted a "Contemporary" style of worship which plays to the sensual side of all humans. "We like to be entertained"!!!!

It is all about the rhythm of the drums and the outward production of instruments in worship services that speaks to the base of humans. It is almost like attending a Rolling Stones concert.

At some point the worship stops going to God and begins to speak to the person instead.

In about 2003, I attended a Southern Baptist convention in Orlando Fl. The leaders there were told that they had to change their worship styles from Traditional to Contemporary or they would not survive. WHY?????

People wanted to be entertained!!!! What is the problem with that. It sounds good but...
2 Timothy 4:1-4 warns us......
"I charge thee therefore before God, and the LORD Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

You put your finger right on the problem. Entertainment-oriented churches tend to be a mile wide but only an inch deep. It is not just Contemporary Worship (so-called) that can be faulted. The Roman Catholic Counter-Reformation strong oriented itself to the entertainment (mystery) value of the mass. Thus, seriously imperial churches such as St. Peter's Basilica in Rome were erected at enormous cost and now we are seeing many such buildings being abandoned as the Catholic Church faces the real crisis of a shortage of priests. After all, you can't entertain folks without the lead entertainer.

 

[Richard T]

You post said.........
"This power seems evident as the churches that generally have more growth and outward signs are Charismatic in nature, even including the Catholic Charismatics."

I would say in my opinion that what you said is due mainly to the fact that those churches adopted a "Contemporary" style of worship which plays to the sensual side of all humans. "We like to be entertained"!!!!

It is all about the rhythm of the drums and the outward production of instruments in worship services that speaks to the base of humans. It is almost like attending a Rolling Stones concert.

At some point the worship stops going to God and begins to speak to the person instead.

In about 2003, I attended a Southern Baptist convention in Orlando Fl. The leaders there were told that they had to change their worship styles from Traditional to Contemporary or they would not survive. WHY?????

People wanted to be entertained!!!! What is the problem with that. It sounds good but...
2 Timothy 4:1-4 warns us......
"I charge thee therefore before God, and the LORD Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

That is one possible explanation. However, many mainline denominations have also changed worships styles, so one would have to look at that while controlling for the type of worship and I doubt there is data for that. You are right about the entertainment factor at some churches, both charismatic and more traditional. It turns me off but then I am older now. It does nothing for conviction by the Holy Spirit though that I can tell, but if it gets more bodies in the seat then I guess there is a chance.

 

[Richard T]

You are very correct brother. 1 Corth. 13:8-10 proves your post........
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

I respect those who believe this way. Like tongues though there are alternative ways of looking at whether the gifts ceased. Logically, why would we be warned in the New Test. about false prophets if there were not any true prophets? Would be so much easier to just say all prophecies will be false.
As you rightly questioned my going by feelings too much, I admit I do go by experience when the bible is seemingly silent (at least to my interpretation). I do this to give God a chance. If it produces fruit and scripture does not condemn it, then why hold back? For some people like myself, it takes a serous confrontation with God, in some cases one that requires one of the gifts of the spirit to operate in order to bring us to Christ. Though Paul's blindness is an extreme example, God has not stopped there in pursuing some people. I admit I have seen what I think was a lot of flesh in the gifts of the Spirit. Still, having a service open to a geniune experience does set the table for the real experience to come. Anyway, thanks again for sharing your thoughts on tongues and cessation.

 

[Richard T]

Ac 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given,...

(Acts 6:6 ; 8:18,19 ; 19:1-6) tells us how the gifts were passed on to INDIVIDUALS (person to person).

In (Acts 2 / 10) the Lord baptized groups of people with the Holy Spirit

What happens when the apostles died? (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18,19)

Miracles ceased (1Cor.13:8-10) (Zech.13:1,2)(Eph.4:11-15)

So you really think that there have been no miracles since the apostles? What do you do when you hear of such things? Even the Catholic church verifies some within their circles. I suppose some could be false signs, but if they really point to Jesus and give God the glory, I don't see the devil as participating.

 

[Nova2216]

So you really think that there have been no miracles since the apostles? What do you do when you hear of such things? Even the Catholic church verifies some within their circles. I suppose some could be false signs, but if they really point to Jesus and give God the glory, I don't see the devil as participating.

I believe what (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18,19) teaches.

when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given

This is the only recorded manner in which the gifts were passed on to other INDIVIDUALS.

Meaning person to person.

 

[Nova2216]

So you really think that there have been no miracles since the apostles? What do you do when you hear of such things? Even the Catholic church verifies some within their circles. I suppose some could be false signs, but if they really point to Jesus and give God the glory, I don't see the devil as participating.

Promising miracles means MONEY in pockets.

 

[Major1]

I respect those who believe this way. Like tongues though there are alternative ways of looking at whether the gifts ceased. Logically, why would we be warned in the New Test. about false prophets if there were not any true prophets? Would be so much easier to just say all prophecies will be false.
As you rightly questioned my going by feelings too much, I admit I do go by experience when the bible is seemingly silent (at least to my interpretation). I do this to give God a chance. If it produces fruit and scripture does not condemn it, then why hold back? For some people like myself, it takes a serous confrontation with God, in some cases one that requires one of the gifts of the spirit to operate in order to bring us to Christ. Though Paul's blindness is an extreme example, God has not stopped there in pursuing some people. I admit I have seen what I think was a lot of flesh in the gifts of the Spirit. Still, having a service open to a geniune experience does set the table for the real experience to come. Anyway, thanks again for sharing your thoughts on tongues and cessation.

As is the case with everyone, you are free to believe as you choose. May the Lord bless you and if I can be of any help, please contact me with a PM.

 

[Major1]

Promising miracles means MONEY in pockets.

And that has always been the root of mans problems......"Show me the Money"!