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Tongues as Initial Evidence

Presbyterian Continuist

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If people are faking tongues then that is a form of lying. The people faking it would know that they are faking it and they would never become fluent.

What actually happens when the "pump is primed" is that when they step out in faith there is a flow from their innermost being and the tongues flow out of them. They know that they are no longer "making it up".

Smith Wiggleworth, the great Pentecostal pioneer of the early 20th Century said that when he spoke in tongues he "started in the flesh" and then the Holy Spirit took over. This has been the experience of all the people who have received the gift of tongues as the result of my ministry.

So, I am no longer going to try and convince those who think that tongues in this manner are being "faked". You can believe what you like. If you are depending on some sort of ecstacy or other sensory experience before you believe you are speaking in tongues, then that is not faith, therefore the tongues under those circumstances cannot be of the Holy Spirit because without faith it is impossible to please God.

Tongues that come through an ecstatic experience comes from the flesh and not the Spirit. This is because the person trying to speak in tongues is depending on their emotions and senses and not the Word of God. They have been deceived into thinking their faith is in God's Word when all the time their faith is in their senses. This is why many cannot speak in tongues until they are hyped up in some emotionally charged meeting.

But a person who has faith in God's Word and believes that he/she speaks in tongues because they have gone through a series of Scriptural steps to receive it, are much more likely to have the genuine thing. They can speak in tongues anywhere, and they don't have to be hyped up in a meeting.

So if those who started speaking in tongues because some type of "force" or "electricity" came upon them and took over their speech faculties are more likely to have received a counterfeit than the real thing. These people need to recognise that they have a counterfeit, repent of their unbelief (replacing God's Word with a sensory experience), confess their sin to God, resist the devil, and renounce the counterfeit tongues, and then go through the proper Scriptural steps (asking, accepting, believing), and then use their faith to receive the genuine article.

Some may see what I am saying as heresy, but I stand on what I believe, that genuine tongues is based on faith, which is a cold blooded belief in God's Word, activated by speaking on the basis of faith and not on the basis of emotion or sensory experiences. This means that genuine tongues is deliberately spoken without any emotional feeling or sensory experience at all, and the language is directed to God in the belief that God understands the language spoken.

I have to be fair in saying that there are many who are sovereignly baptised in the Holy Spirit and spontaneously speak in tongues without any human ministry at all. The Holy Spirit has the freedom to minister to people in any way He pleases.

There are also situations where good ministers lay hands on a person and they are immediately baptised in the Spirit and speak in tongues without any effort at all.

But what I believe is not of the Holy Spirit is where a group of people get around some hapless person and lay hands on them and try to force the Holy Spirit into him/her as if they were trying to baptise the person in the Spirit themselves. These are the ones who have that erroneous belief that they can transfer some sort of "force" or "electricity" from their hands into the person. I have seen that happen, and after a while those people give up and say that the subject lacks faith and so they walk away. I have gone to such "chronics", sat them down. taken them through the steps of faith, and they have come through to the baptism and the gift of tongues effortlessly. And this is after a highly charged session lasting 20 minutes of a group of people trying to force the gift on him/her!


I hope you don't go derailing the faith of those who have received the gift of tongues through activating their faith in the absence of any sensory emotions or experiences, because you will find that the Holy Spirit will be grieved and will oppose you, and you will suffer the consequences.
 
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Faulty

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The people faking it would know that they are faking it and they would never become fluent.

I wouldn't necessarily consider that accurate. All one would have to do is make the sounds they hear the preachers do on the TV, because they tend to all sound the same anyway. How hard could it be? It's the same 5 sounds over and over. Babies do it all the time.




Let's play a game. Which TV preacher am I?

shun-da-la-ba ba-la-da-sha da-la-sha-ba la-ba-da-shun






Answer: All of them.

{Swish!! And the crowd goes wild!! :ebil: }
 
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fuegodedios

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Every other gift except speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues.

Right. That's what I said. That was the basis of my point. Since tongues is exclusive to the baptism in the Holy Spirit, then no other gifting can definitively prove that one is baptized in the Holy Spirit because all the other gifts except for those occurred in the OT.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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I wouldn't necessarily consider that accurate. All one would have to do is make the sounds they hear the preachers do on the TV, because they tend to all sound the same anyway. How hard could it be? It's the same 5 sounds over and over. Babies do it all the time.




Let's play a game. Which TV preacher am I?

shun-da-la-ba ba-la-da-sha da-la-sha-ba la-ba-da-shun






Answer: All of them.

{Swish!! And the crowd goes wild!! :ebil: }

But that is certainly not the gift of tongues at all. Anyone can speak that nonsense. The genuine gift of tongues is evident when beautiful, articulate languages flow out of people who are baptised in the Spirit. When I assist people to come through to tongues and they speak that babyish nonsense I tell them that they have not achieved the gift yet. I won't accept that a person has the gift of tongues until I hear a definite language.

It is amazing to me that Pentecostals who have been speaking in tongues for years are still speaking that baby rubbish. It tells me that they don't know much about tongues or what the purpose of the gift actually is. They use tongues as some sort of "punctuation", and not how it is supposed to be used. Obviously these people don't do much praying in tongues or in English when they are alone. They probably do all their praying in public church services and nowhere else, and that is why their practice in tongues is not even in the ballpark!
 
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TasManOfGod

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I wouldn't necessarily consider that accurate. All one would have to do is make the sounds they hear the preachers do on the TV, because they tend to all sound the same anyway. How hard could it be? It's the same 5 sounds over and over. Babies do it all the time.




Let's play a game. Which TV preacher am I?

shun-da-la-ba ba-la-da-sha da-la-sha-ba la-ba-da-shun






Answer: All of them.

{Swish!! And the crowd goes wild!! :ebil: }
Perhaps you might be also judged on how God understands your baby talk
 
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Bob Carabbio

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Nope - YOU ARE.

You tell people to start out by FAKING a tongue in the "Faith" (actually only presumption) that it's real, and "hope" that God will bless them with the "Real thing"!!!

And apparently by your own testimony, He does, so by YOUR testimony, "Presumption" is honored.

I would consider that EXTREMELY dangerous teaching, that could EASILY lead folks into thinking that they HAVE something, that they really don't have at all.

Personally, I'm TOTALLY OPPOSED to doing anything in "presumption", or any teaching about "Practicing tongues" (the REAL ones don't require any practice), or "Priming the pump" (With nonsense sounds) and don't.

Simple as that.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Nope - YOU ARE.

You tell people to start out by FAKING a tongue in the "Faith" (actually only presumption) that it's real, and "hope" that God will bless them with the "Real thing"!!!

And apparently by your own testimony, He does, so by YOUR testimony, "Presumption" is honored.

I would consider that EXTREMELY dangerous teaching, that could EASILY lead folks into thinking that they HAVE something, that they really don't have at all.

Personally, I'm TOTALLY OPPOSED to doing anything in "presumption", or any teaching about "Practicing tongues" (the REAL ones don't require any practice), or "Priming the pump" (With nonsense sounds) and don't.

Simple as that.

I know many people who came through in tongues and who spoke beautiful articulate languages after taking that particular step of faith who will just laugh at your lack of knowledge about how faith works.

I won't bother to further debate with you. You can believe what you like, as long as you are prepared to take the consequences of it.
 
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I know many people who came through in tongues and who spoke beautiful articulate languages after taking that particular step of faith who will just laugh at your lack of knowledge about how faith works.

I won't bother to further debate with you. You can believe what you like, as long as you are prepared to take the consequences of it.

Reading these posts made me think "INTENT" ought to be used somewhere. I believe intent might be healthy for the mind.
 
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Biblicist

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I know many people who came through in tongues and who spoke beautiful articulate languages after taking that particular step of faith who will just laugh at your lack of knowledge about how faith works.

I would say that in a highly Spirit driven environment, that there would probably be little need for us to help those of us who are within the Western mindset to open our mouths and ‘do something’ so that the Spirit can take over – as against simply sitting there and not opening our mouths hoping that the Spirit would do it for us.

When I was prayed for as with many others, it took me about four hours to suddenly decide to open my mouth and allow the Spirit to pray through me. Maybe, and I say maybe if I had of been encouraged to open my youthful mouth whilst sitting amongst about a dozen or so other keen individuals then this might have helped me to get over my insecurity.

I would not be too excited to see people encouraged to simply babble for an extended period but I can appreciate that many people in our Western mindset can find it very hard to open up to the Spirit of God.

 
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Bob Carabbio

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Is that over the years on the 'web (probably close to 20 now), I've had "Consequences" THREATENED by any number of folks about any number of different things - Goes with the territory - but does give me a clue about what "spirit" you speak with.

I wasn't baptised in the name of "Jesus only" - so I'm hellbound!!.
I wasn't baptised in the understanding that it was the point at which my Sins were removed - so the baptism was no good, and I'm hellbound!!!
I'm Trinitarian so I'm hellbound!!!
I'm Pentecostal, so I'm hellbound!!!
I don't believe in "Entire sanctification which eradicates the sinful nature" - so I'll not stay true - and will be "hellbound!!!"
I'm not a Calvinist - so I'm hellbound!!

Oh - and best of all, since I'm a "Lapsed Catholic", NOT ignorant of the existence and claims of the Romanists, and totally reject their authority over me - you guessed it!!! I'm HELLBOUND!!!

Oh well.

"I know many people who came through in tongues and who spoke beautiful articulate languages after taking that particular step of faith who will just laugh at your lack of knowledge about how faith works."

Good for you, and I know many folks in New Knoxville, OH who paid "The Way International" something like $350 each back in the '70s to TEACH THEM how to talk in tongues - who speak in "Beautiful articulate languages", and Interpret their own "tongues" on cue. who would also laugh at me (and orthodox Christianity in general).

Their (The "WAY's") "Secret is how they interpret 1 Cor 12:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

They teach that the "He" refers to the man, and NOT to the Holy Spirit. Opens up a WORLD of possibilities, don'cha know.

But in leading people into The Baptism in the Holy Spirit, I PERSONALLY WOULD NEVER actually teach people to "pretend" ANYTHING. I would put my trust In God to give 'em a tongue - whenever HE decides to do so.

Simple as that.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Is that over the years on the 'web (probably close to 20 now), I've had "Consequences" THREATENED by any number of folks about any number of different things - Goes with the territory - but does give me a clue about what "spirit" you speak with.

I wasn't baptised in the name of "Jesus only" - so I'm hellbound!!.
I wasn't baptised in the understanding that it was the point at which my Sins were removed - so the baptism was no good, and I'm hellbound!!!
I'm Trinitarian so I'm hellbound!!!
I'm Pentecostal, so I'm hellbound!!!
I don't believe in "Entire sanctification which eradicates the sinful nature" - so I'll not stay true - and will be "hellbound!!!"
I'm not a Calvinist - so I'm hellbound!!

Oh - and best of all, since I'm a "Lapsed Catholic", NOT ignorant of the existence and claims of the Romanists, and totally reject their authority over me - you guessed it!!! I'm HELLBOUND!!!

Oh well.

"I know many people who came through in tongues and who spoke beautiful articulate languages after taking that particular step of faith who will just laugh at your lack of knowledge about how faith works."

Good for you, and I know many folks in New Knoxville, OH who paid "The Way International" something like $350 each back in the '70s to TEACH THEM how to talk in tongues - who speak in "Beautiful articulate languages", and Interpret their own "tongues" on cue. who would also laugh at me (and orthodox Christianity in general).

Their (The "WAY's") "Secret is how they interpret 1 Cor 12:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

They teach that the "He" refers to the man, and NOT to the Holy Spirit. Opens up a WORLD of possibilities, don'cha know.

But in leading people into The Baptism in the Holy Spirit, I PERSONALLY WOULD NEVER actually teach people to "pretend" ANYTHING. I would put my trust In God to give 'em a tongue - whenever HE decides to do so.

Simple as that.

So what you do you think faith is then?

My Bible decribes faith as a deliberate action based on what I believe.

Are you still waiting to be saved? Because according to your theory, you have to sit passively and wait for the Holy Spirit to bring you through to Salvation.

Of course, that is good ultra Calvinism, whose professors opposed Charles Grandison Finney's form of evangelism.

You can do a bit of work to find out how Finney told people to get saved.

But you didn't get saved by sitting passively waiting for something to happen. You had to take some sort of deliberate action, and every day you pray, read the Bible, and go to Church, you are doing something according to your faith. You believe you are saved, therefore you do all the things that saved people do. Is that right?

It is the same with the baptism in the Spirit. When do you believe you are baptised in the Spirit? When you believe the Word of God when it says that Jesus sent the Spirit to the church 2000 years ago, or when you receive some sort of sensory experience?

And how do you know that the sensory experience you receive is actually from the Holy Spirit? It might be coming from another spirit. How can you test it?

My Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God. I wonder what your Bible says?

Faith is simply believing the promises of God. If Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to fill believers 2000 years ago, then why do you think you have to passively wait for it? He has already come to the church waiting for believers to receive Him into their lives. So here is the silly situation that some get themselves into. The Holy Spirit is in the church waiting for believers to receive Him so He can fill them, and believers are waiting passively for the Holy Spirit to somehow fill them without them receiving the Spirit into their lives according to their faith.

If you believe that encouraging people to activate their faith on the basis of God's Word is "pretending" then you are far short of the mark. Every person I have ever led through to the baptism in the Spirit and the gift of tongues knew they were not pretending when they spoke their own languages. They knew that they had received the genuine ability to speak in tongues. They base their faith on the Word of God which tells them that when they are baptised in the Spirit they have the ability to speak in tongues, so when they spoke their language they knew it was genuine.

So if you speak in tongues and base your faith on something else, then... what?
 
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FoundInGrace

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wouldnt it be something if we took a step of faith, not to speak in tongues, but to talk to someone we dont know because we sense a need and go and talk to them trusting God will give us what is needed for them (like a kind word or money or a ride somewhere or directions or so they are not alone, or whatever God needs us to be for that person He knows) even though we may feel so inadequate but we go in obedience and faith and out of His compassion for someone in need.

when the Bible talks about our faith being made complete by what we do i reckon it means stuff like that.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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wouldnt it be something if we took a step of faith, not to speak in tongues, but to talk to someone we dont know because we sense a need and go and talk to them trusting God will give us what is needed for them (like a kind word or money or a ride somewhere or directions or so they are not alone, or whatever God needs us to be for that person He knows) even though we may feel so inadequate but we go in obedience and faith and out of His compassion for someone in need.

when the Bible talks about our faith being made complete by what we do i reckon it means stuff like that.

You are correct.

Faith is not mere belief. You can believe every word of the Bible and yet not have faith. There are many unconverted sinners who believe every word of the Bible and yet remain unconverted. Even the devil and his demons believe the Bible and yet cannot be saved, because faith is essential for salvation.

Faith is taking action based on what you believe.

Here is an example:

My car was written off by a driver, losing control of his car, smashed into my car while it was parked at the side of the road. I waited on God to find out His will on a replacement vehicle. The insurance company agreed to pay out and they were quite generous, so I could buy a good reliable car with what they paid me. When He gave me "the nod", what came to me was "Nissan, 100,000km". Okay, now I know God's will. But I had to pray the replacement car into being. So I could exercise limited faith as part of the process. My basis for faith was God's witness to my spirit, and the Scripture that says that if I ask God for something that is in His will for me, He will grant it. So I was able to pray in faith, but I had to go to the next stage. I had to keep praying until the right car came along.

Now, I was not passive while praying. Part of exercising faith is that I use the resources available to me. In this case, it meant going around several car yards and test driving vehicles. In the case of prayer for healing, one would take advantage of any medical assistance. This is not a lack of faith. In fact it is a part of faith to use whatever resources are available to us. We do not trust in the resources, but we maintain our trust in God that He will lead us to His intended conclusion.

I test drove several vehicles, but each one got a red light inside of me because they did not match the criteria. One of these was a Nissan Sunny in perfect condition and it ran really well, but it hat 200,000km on the clock; but I got the prompt that it wasn't the one. Then from an unexpected source, a Nissan Bluebird with 100,000km on the clock was offered to me. It was in immaculate condition. The car dealer was going to put it on the lot for $6,700, but offered it to me for $5,000. The insurance paid out $4,500, and I had a spare $500 in the bank. I got the witness that "this was it".

Now, here is the step of faith: I purchased the car, and I have had it now for about 8 months and it is going fine.

So you are right. You take action on the basis of what you believe. If you believe that you are baptised in the Spirit, and that going to someone and sharing Christ with them is your way of exercising faith, then God will honour that by making them receptive to your sharing of the "good news".

It is more than faith being made complete by what we do. Faith is what we do on the basis of what we believe. Evangelical faith is what we do on the basis that God has spoken to our hearts through His Word and that we can take action.
 
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