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Tongues as Initial Evidence

JEBrady

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ok but it still seems like your business with God is your business with God, not everyone around you. they dont NEED to see it for you to be righteous.

Why would this be a private matter? In Acts 2, it was essential that those around witness this speaking in tongues. It was an outward miracle that was meant for others to witness. Tongues is a sign (1 Co 14), and signs are meant to be seen. It was absolutely essential that Peter and the brethren see that those at Cornelius' house received the Holy spirit.

Receiving the spirit isn't some personal matter between you and God that no one else is supposed to know about. That's clear in scripture. I don't know why anyone would want it not to be known that they received the spirit.
 
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JC_Crust

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Why would this be a private matter? In Acts 2, it was essential that those around witness this speaking in tongues. It was an outward miracle that was meant for others to witness. Tongues is a sign (1 Co 14), and signs are meant to be seen. It was absolutely essential that Peter and the brethren see that those at Cornelius' house received the Holy spirit.

Receiving the spirit isn't some personal matter between you and God that no one else is supposed to know about. That's clear in scripture. I don't know why anyone would want it not to be known that they received the spirit.


it doesnt HAVE to be and private matter but it doesnt HAVE to be a public matter either. thats what i was trying to say. i guess im referring to people who think they're above you because you haven't spoken in tongues so people will fake it to fit in. my brother did that and then came and asked me if it wrong to fake it. i immediately told him it was. if someone wants to speak in tongues or believe in it, then fine, because my beliefs are mine and their beliefs are theres. i just dont like it when people chastise others because they have not.
 
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MinJeremiah

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why does everyone else have to see that youre filled with the holy spirit? i thought that was supposed to be between us and God?

I'm not saying it has to be witnessed by others. I'm just saying that when you study the Bible it shows people spoke in tongues after being filled with the Spirit.

I feel safe just following how things happened in the Bible. Maybe I'm oldschool. I just believe I'm safe by staying on the Word.

I pefer not to build doctrines and base my faith on experienses outside the Word. Now, I'm not saying that every experience has to have happened exactly in scripture for me to believe it. I'm just not gonna let it alter how I believe.

I see overwelmly, just as in the bible, worldwide; when people are filled the speak in tongues. Are us millions of Christians who follow the assembly of God slash Word of Faith doctrine to being filled with the Spirit wrong? I don't think so. God seems to continue to just confirm it. (Unless your one of the people who believe us millions are faking: be careful).
 
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MinJeremiah

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The Assembly of God / Word of Faith doctrine for receiving the Holy Spirit seems to produce overwelmingly the most results of people speaking in tongues.

Do u think that holds any water to whether the teaching is accurate? If it isn't then why do the people speak in tongues most of the time after they learn about it?
 
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JC_Crust

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I'm not saying it has to be witnessed by others. I'm just saying that when you study the Bible it shows people spoke in tongues after being filled with the Spirit.

I feel safe just following how things happened in the Bible. Maybe I'm oldschool. I just believe I'm safe by staying on the Word.

i stay in the word as well.

I pefer not to build doctrines and base my faith on experienses outside the Word. Now, I'm not saying that every experience has to have happened exactly in scripture for me to believe it. I'm just not gonna let it alter how I believe.

i dont build doctrines outside the word. if you stay to the word then how come things can happen not as they are exactly in scripture and you still believe it?

I see overwelmly, just as in the bible, worldwide; when people are filled the speak in tongues. Are us millions of Christians who follow the assembly of God slash Word of Faith doctrine to being filled with the Spirit wrong? I don't think so. God seems to continue to just confirm it. (Unless your one of the people who believe us millions are faking: be careful).

why do i have to be careful? because i dont believe what you believe? thats real nice
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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I suppose I am one of the undecided that you mention. The main reason is because it's hard for me to discern truth in certain cases when you have seemingly honest, and good intentioned believers seperating themselves from other believers over a single gift, and then using that gift in a way that's umbiblical.

I mean, c'mon.... Paul warned us very clearly...
Yes he did, and I take that very seriously.

I fellowship at a traditional Presbyterian church, even though I have a Pentecostal background. I am there because the Holy Spirit told me to go there, and He has enabled me to be part of the leadership and to use my gifts for the building up of Christians there. But I wouldn't be there if it was an anti-Charismatic church.

My remarks in the post you quoted were directed for anti-Charismatics who gnash their teeth at other Christians who speak in tongues. From your comments, I don't see you as one of those. There is a world of difference between non-Charismatics and anti-Charismatics. Actually "non-Charismatic" is not quite accurate because it is categorising people from a Charismatic perspective as if the Charismatic is the "standard" of Christian practice, which I do not believe.

My view is that faith and total dependence on Jesus Christ is the standard of Christian life and practice. He is above all denominations and theologies. Charismatics don't "own" Christ. He is too great for that. For 10 years of my life I went to a Charismatic church that believed it was the most spiritual and closest to God out of all the churches in the city. I could never really accept that, and when the gossiping and backbiting got too much for me I joined an Anglican church and found a totally different, refreshing attitude.

Ever since 1980, I have fellowshipped with Anglicans, Baptists, and now Presbyterians. Out of all of them I like the Presbyterian church because of its theology and its openness to Christ and what He can do for believers. A Pentecostal friend of mine said recently that the most powerful prophecies he has received has come from Presbyterian elders. Now that says something, doesn't it? There have been some Presbyterian churches that have embraced the gifts of the Spirit in this country, and because of their stability of doctrine and practice, they have not gone to the excesses of some Pentecostal groups.

I believe that the key for worship practice and the use of the gifts of the Spirit in public church meetings is whether it edifies believers and attracts unbelievers to Christ when they enter the services. I think that the wholesale misuse of tongues and the other demonstrative manifestations of the "spirit" (or flesh?) have not edified believers, and have driven genuine seekers away from those churches. Therefore it is understood that some groups passionately oppose the Charismatic way of worship.

I believe in the modern day use of the gifts of the Spirit, but the standard is that their use must lift Jesus up on high and glorify Him. Jesus is supreme. He is greater than the gifts even. The role of the Holy Spirit is to point us to Jesus and present Him as our complete Saviour and absolute Lord. If a manifestation takes our eyes off the Lord then it cannot be of the Holy Spirit.

Dare I say this? If people are looking for a sensory experience instead of standing by faith on God's Word, then the devil is always there to give them one. The devil's purpose is to steal, kill and destroy. He will steal the true way of using the gifts and replace it without something false; he will kill the true effectiveness of the gifts and have people manifest vain counterfeits, which can be so like the real thing that it takes a person with the gift of discernment of spirits to recognise it for what it really is; and he will set out to destroy good fellowship meetings and the pathway to Christ for unbelievers through the distractions such shows of the flesh will accomplish. The sad thing is that there has been a decline within many Pentecostal groups of the true ministry of the Holy Spirit which used to bring people to Christ, and there has been an upsurge of outward shows of false spirituality and playing to the audience, making worship a spectator sport instead of something that should lift up Christ and draw unbelievers to Him to be saved.

But God will always have a witness to the truth, and He will always have a remnant who will glorify Jesus.
 
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JC_Crust

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Yes he did, and I take that very seriously.

I fellowship at a traditional Presbyterian church, even though I have a Pentecostal background. I am there because the Holy Spirit told me to go there, and He has enabled me to be part of the leadership and to use my gifts for the building up of Christians there. But I wouldn't be there if it was an anti-Charismatic church.

My remarks in the post you quoted were directed for anti-Charismatics who gnash their teeth at other Christians who speak in tongues. From your comments, I don't see you as one of those. There is a world of difference between non-Charismatics and anti-Charismatics. Actually "non-Charismatic" is not quite accurate because it is categorising people from a Charismatic perspective as if the Charismatic is the "standard" of Christian practice, which I do not believe.

My view is that faith and total dependence on Jesus Christ is the standard of Christian life and practice. He is above all denominations and theologies. Charismatics don't "own" Christ. He is too great for that. For 10 years of my life I went to a Charismatic church that believed it was the most spiritual and closest to God out of all the churches in the city. I could never really accept that, and when the gossiping and backbiting got too much for me I joined an Anglican church and found a totally different, refreshing attitude.

Ever since 1980, I have fellowshipped with Anglicans, Baptists, and now Presbyterians. Out of all of them I like the Presbyterian church because of its theology and its openness to Christ and what He can do for believers. A Pentecostal friend of mine said recently that the most powerful prophecies he has received has come from Presbyterian elders. Now that says something, doesn't it? There have been some Presbyterian churches that have embraced the gifts of the Spirit in this country, and because of their stability of doctrine and practice, they have not gone to the excesses of some Pentecostal groups.

I believe that the key for worship practice and the use of the gifts of the Spirit in public church meetings is whether it edifies believers and attracts unbelievers to Christ when they enter the services. I think that the wholesale misuse of tongues and the other demonstrative manifestations of the "spirit" (or flesh?) have not edified believers, and have driven genuine seekers away from those churches. Therefore it is understood that some groups passionately oppose the Charismatic way of worship.

I believe in the modern day use of the gifts of the Spirit, but the standard is that their use must lift Jesus up on high and glorify Him. Jesus is supreme. He is greater than the gifts even. The role of the Holy Spirit is to point us to Jesus and present Him as our complete Saviour and absolute Lord. If a manifestation takes our eyes off the Lord then it cannot be of the Holy Spirit.

Dare I say this? If people are looking for a sensory experience instead of standing by faith on God's Word, then the devil is always there to give them one. The devil's purpose is to steal, kill and destroy. He will steal the true way of using the gifts and replace it without something false; he will kill the true effectiveness of the gifts and have people manifest vain counterfeits, which can be so like the real thing that it takes a person with the gift of discernment of spirits to recognise it for what it really is; and he will set out to destroy good fellowship meetings and the pathway to Christ for unbelievers through the distractions such shows of the flesh will accomplish. The sad thing is that there has been a decline within many Pentecostal groups of the true ministry of the Holy Spirit which used to bring people to Christ, and there has been an upsurge of outward shows of false spirituality and playing to the audience, making worship a spectator sport instead of something that should lift up Christ and draw unbelievers to Him to be saved.

But God will always have a witness to the truth, and He will always have a remnant who will glorify Jesus.

your last paragraph explains what i was trying to say by people "faking it". im glad someone like you is on here because you explain things so well! :D
 
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TasManOfGod

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The Assembly of God / Word of Faith doctrine for receiving the Holy Spirit seems to produce overwelmingly the most results of people speaking in tongues.

Do u think that holds any water to whether the teaching is accurate? If it isn't then why do the people speak in tongues most of the time after they learn about it?
There is a simple answer for that : "Faith comes by hearing __"
So if you want to follow God's will -listen to what God is saying
 
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bloodbought09

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I was taught that there are four baptisms:

1. Water
2. Into the body
3. Holy Spirit
4. Fire!

The initial evidence is the witness in the Spirit saying we are a child of God. If people have not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, evidence by tongues, then let them be educated, do not degrade. But, not all speak in tongues, though praying in the Holy Ghost will build up your faith.
 
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I was taught that there are four baptisms:

1. Water
2. Into the body
3. Holy Spirit
4. Fire!

The initial evidence is the witness in the Spirit saying we are a child of God. If people have not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, evidence by tongues, then let them be educated, do not degrade. But, not all speak in tongues, though praying in the Holy Ghost will build up your faith.

In a way yes.....but water by baptism encompasses a lot of different things. Mostly to be pure in the sight of the Lord, but I don't think it has its Jewish roots that it once did.

On tongues I agree. There is nothing wrong with speaking in tongues and I am still seeking the gift. I haven't found it yet, but a lot can be said on 1 Corinthians 12. I have plenty of notes on that from my Yeshiva.
 
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bloodbought09

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In a way yes.....but water by baptism encompasses a lot of different things. Mostly to be pure in the sight of the Lord, but I don't think it has its Jewish roots that it once did.

On tongues I agree. There is nothing wrong with speaking in tongues and I am still seeking the gift. I haven't found it yet, but a lot can be said on 1 Corinthians 12. I have plenty of notes on that from my Yeshiva.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. If you ask for a fish, He will not give you a serpent. Open your mouth and He will fill it, just receive. Watch, He will bring you the opportunity and unction. Sometimes you need to position yourself to receive like a receiver in football catches the football. You have to receive a righteous man as a righteous man to get a righteous man's reward. You are getting educated on it, and at the right time God will rent the heavens and manipulate events to bring it to pass.

Bless.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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In a way yes.....but water by baptism encompasses a lot of different things. Mostly to be pure in the sight of the Lord, but I don't think it has its Jewish roots that it once did.

On tongues I agree. There is nothing wrong with speaking in tongues and I am still seeking the gift. I haven't found it yet, but a lot can be said on 1 Corinthians 12. I have plenty of notes on that from my Yeshiva.
Here's my article on tongues in the hope that it may get you closer to receiving it for yourself.
INTRODUCTION TO THE GIFT OF TONGUES
 
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JimB

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I was taught that there are four baptisms:

1. Water
2. Into the body
3. Holy Spirit
4. Fire!

The initial evidence is the witness in the Spirit saying we are a child of God. If people have not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, evidence by tongues, then let them be educated, do not degrade. But, not all speak in tongues, though praying in the Holy Ghost will build up your faith.

I would say that here it is best to adjust what you/we have been taught with scripture, which says (plainly, I might add) that there is only ONE baptism (not four).
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Epheisans 4)
We can “explain” that any way we like but we can never make one into a four, neither mathematically nor spiritually. It is always dangerous to form our doctrine then approach scripture to support what we have predetermined to believe. It is safest to adjust our doctrine and our thinking to scripture. That is difficult when we love our doctrine as much as we love the Word.

~Jim

“Hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia” is the fear of long words.
 
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Jakihe

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But, and here's the point, the observers who see the person being baptised in the Spirit, the initial evidence for them is the gift of tongues. How else are they going to know that the particular person they prayed for has actually received the baptism in the Spirit?

Isn't the evidence proven through our lives in which The Holy Spirit makes us Holy? I know people who never spoke in tongues but certainly have The Holy Spirit which is obviously demonstrated through the fruits they now bear. I also know people who have spoken in tongues who are generally hateful people, and some seem to have never learned to be and act humble to others. Isn't the true evidence of The Holy Spirit in how it has sincerely and obviously made a difference in our lives, those that others can see, feel and testify to?
 
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bloodbought09

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I would say that here it is best to adjust what you/we have been taught with scripture, which says (plainly, I might add) that there is only ONE baptism (not four).
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Epheisans 4)
We can “explain” that any way we like but we can never make one into a four, neither mathematically nor spiritually. It is always dangerous to form our doctrine then approach scripture to support what we have predetermined to believe. It is safest to adjust our doctrine and our thinking to scripture. That is difficult when we love our doctrine as much as we love the Word.

~Jim

“Hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia” is the fear of long words.

We make 3 into 1. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is a baptism in water and of fire. You cannot deny this. We are baptized in fire when we are put through affliction.

I would like to know two things. Please just answer yes or no to both.

Are you baptized in water, whether by sprinkling, immersion, or whatever manner? Keep in mind that as we immerse in the word, this is also a form of baptism or washing.

Are you baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire?

I am not just some hokey pokey person who accepts only experience and feelings. I actually read my bible and love the word of God:

Hebrews 6:1-3

1. Therefore, leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3. And this will we do, if God permits.

I will then follow up with scripture to back up what I say when I find out where you stand.

God bless.
 
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JimB

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We make 3 into 1. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is a baptism in water and of fire. You cannot deny this. We are baptized in fire when we are put through affliction.

I would like to know two things. Please just answer yes or no to both.

Are you baptized in water, whether by sprinkling, immersion, or whatever manner? Keep in mind that as we immerse in the word, this is also a form of baptism or washing.

Are you baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire?

I am not just some hokey pokey person who accepts only experience and feelings. I actually read my bible and love the word of God:

Hebrews 6:1-3

1. Therefore, leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3. And this will we do, if God permits.

I will then follow up with scripture to back up what I say when I find out where you stand.

God bless.

:) Sorry, but I refuse to play the “just answer yes or no” game, especially when answering such a question as this around which so much bad teaching has evolved. So ...

Yes, I was baptized in water as a symbolic act to publicly signify my baptism by the Spirit into the body of Christ (the ONE baptism) but mainly because I was told (taught) that I had to be baptized in water.

I was baptized in the Holy Spirit the moment I became a Christian and was baptized into the body of Christ. That is the ONE baptism Paul spoke of.
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor. 12)
This is the ONE baptism of Ephesians 4.5.
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
The plural use of the word “baptisms” in Hebrews may mean that, thankfully, more than one person had experienced the Spirit baptism into Christ’s body. It would have been the same had the word salvation(s) been used. When someone asks, “How many salvations did your church have last year?” they are not wanting to know how many kinds of salvations we believed, but how many were actually saved—i.e., baptized into the body.

~Jim

The shortest distance between two points is usually under construction.
 
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JimB

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P.S.

I believe the so-called “baptism of fire” is language speaking of the trials, temptations, and suffering that often await those who live godly in Christ Jesus. When the Spirit came upon Christ at his baptism in water it signified a different baptism, the Baptism of Christ that we experience when we are baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ. John the Baptist spoke of it by saying, “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire” and this was signified by the appearance of the dove (the Spirit) and Christ’s subsequent forty day temptation in the wilderness—the “fire”, which immediately followed.

~Jim


The shortest distance between two points is usually under construction.
 
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bloodbought09

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P.S.

I believe the so-called “baptism of fire” is language speaking of the trials, temptations, and suffering that often await those who live godly in Christ Jesus. When the Spirit came upon Christ at his baptism in water it signified a different baptism, the Baptism of Christ that we experience when we are baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ. John the Baptist spoke of it by saying, “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire” and this was signified by the appearance of the dove (the Spirit) and Christ’s subsequent forty day temptation in the wilderness—the “fire”, which immediately followed.

~Jim


The shortest distance between two points is usually under construction.

Jim, you answered the way I would have answered and even gave some verses that would take some time to find. It is scriptural to say that we are baptized in water, into the body, in the Holy Ghost, and in fire. I believe in one baptism, and each attribute of that is in the same name, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is not in Joseph Smith name, or apollo, not even John the baptist. The baptism is in Jesus name and that should encompass it all. Bless.


 
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bloodbought09

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One other thing I agree with is living a godly life. There are preachers out there, preaching the good news and living like heathens. Even doing signs and wonders. The affliction that comes to those who preach whatever gospel with all filthiness of sin in their lives is not the affliction that comes with the fire of the Holy Spirit. It would make sense that the person must be afflicted though. God rebukes and chastens those He loves.

Some of us are vessels of honor and others of dishonor, but God definately shows that He is longsuffering, seeing that we are around still when we backslide or just flat out be hypocrits. But we can be cleansed from being vessels of dishonor.

God does not come to look for the world sinning, killing, fornicating. God looks for faith and His own attributes, but finds the former. He is happy when His mind comes over us and we are out doing His work. I think we are happiest at that time also, when we have faith and know that God is pleased.

Bless.
 
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