Todd Bentley

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I guess that this topic has been done to death on previous posts somewhere and I don't really want to open up the can of worms again.

But he was mentioned in my other thread, and I thought I would google him and see what the issues are.

Of course, to be consistent with what I said about commenting on ministries without first hand evidence, I have to be careful about what I write.

The positive aspects that I have picked up are that souls came to Christ and miraculous healings took place while he was ministering. I am pretty Calvinistic in that regard in that people can't be saved without an inner work of the Holy Spirit.

Also we have to consider that no one is perfect, and sanctification is a gradual process that happens over a lifetime. Given that Mr Bentley had a pretty hard life before his conversion, sanctification might take a lot longer.

Concerning the reports about his life and criminal convictions before his conversion, it is unfair and unScriptural to hold those against him as a Christian minister. He did those things as a sinner, and it would be a devaluing of Christian conversion to raise doubts about a man's ministry over things that the man did before he even became a Christian. It means that the critics do not really believe that when a person accepts Christ God forgives him completely and that he becomes a whole new creature in Christ.

These critics would then have to condemn Paul's apostleship because of his cruel persecution of the church before his conversion, and his consenting of the death of Stephen.

So, while Mr Bentley was living and working within Scriptural guideliness, there would be no doubt in my mind that the conversions and healings under his ministry would have been genuine.

Now we need to look at some of the things that would concern me. The following comments come more from what I believe or not believe about a person's experience with supernatural visitations. So I will speak in the first person about what I have observed.

I would have doubts if I was visited by an angel with a female name, and especially if that angel was giving me guidance. Hebrews tells us that God speaks in these last days through His Son Jesus Christ, and Jesus speaks to us through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us. I believe that the ministry of Angels is to strengthen and protect us in times of stress and danger, such as the one who strengthened Paul just before his ship wreck.

I would also have doubts about having a spiritual experience of going into Heaven and speaking with the Apostle Paul. This is occult to me, because it is communicating with the dead. King Saul communicated with the dead Samuel, and this signalled that he was no longer in touch with God and had to go and consult with a witch who raised Samuel from the dead. We actually don't know it was Samuel. It might have been a demon posing as Samuel, just as if the Apostle Paul's ghost came and spoke with me, it could only be a demon posing as Paul.

I have never seen Jesus being violent to anyone as part of His healing ministry, so I wouldn't even thinking about hitting or pushing anyone over. I heard of Smith Wigglesworth drop kicking a dead baby and brought it back to life, but then I cannot verify that as being actually true or merely heresay.

I received Christ at the age of 19, but I would never have thought that entering into an evangelistic ministry would have been appropriate for me, being so young and so young in the faith. Spurgeon was very young when he started preaching, but I am sure that he had some very strong, godly men to mentor him as he matured. Being thrust into a very prominent, supernatural ministry so young is like being in a minefield without a mine detector. It is not "if" you step on a mine and blow yourself up, but "when". There is an apprenticeship that has to be served. Paul says that leadership in Christ is not for the novice because such a person can be so easily overtaken with pride.

I'm not saying that preachers should wait for 45 years like I have had to wait, but I am glad it has been that way with me, because I feel safer with the years of experience behind me.

Just because Mr Bentley does not look like how an evangelist should look, ie: his tatoos, etc., that doesn't matter to me, because God looks on the heart, not the outward appearance. Jesus was a working class carpenter, and this was a problem to a lot of people in His home town when He tried to minister there.

I believe that Mr Bentley did the right thing withdrawing from ministry when his marriage broke up, and he accepted that his relationship (whatever it was) with the "other woman" fell below the standard expected of a Christian leader. I am not privy to all the facts around that, and I don't have the right to have them because of the personal nature of the event.

There are many successful Christian ministers who are divorced and remarried, and we need to look at each one on a case by case basis, rather than imposing a blanket condemnation on a man just because of that.

I do have concerns though about reports about his present wife having communication with the dead. If my wife was having experiences like that and attributing them to a work of God, I would be questioning it on the basis that the Scripture does not authorise us to communicate with the dead, and that the "dead" may very well be demons impersonating the dead person. The Scripture clearly shows us that once someone dies, they depart from this world completely and go to a place where they are well out of range of the living.

So I am not saying that I am defending Mr Bentley or not. I have yet to do more research to get a clearer picture. What I would appreciate is that there are responses to this thread that are supported by substantial evidence, preferably first hand reports either supporting the genuineness of Mr Bentley's ministry, or confirming my doubts.

There are plenty of people who make judgments on heresay and second hand reports. I am not interested in responses based on that.

But don't hesitate to debate the issue and give your reasons for whether you support or reject the man's ministry. It would be instructive if you were able to give suggestions about how Mr Bentley could be fully restored to his ministry and regain credibility.

My first suggestion is that he adopts a more conservative, Scripture based, Christ centred theology and tests his own and his wife's supernatural experiences as to whether or not they are consistent with the spirit of Scripture.

Issues around his divorce and remarriage are of no interest to me and mentioning them would probably attract useless debate and not be helpful to anyone.

So, bring it on folks, and lets have a stimulating and lively discussion. Then we will all learn something.

 

[zaksmummy]

I dont know about anybody else, but I have had my fill of Todd Bentley discussions.

 

[Faulty]

In a nutshell, based on his past and current teachings, actions, and affiliations, I don't believe the man is a fellow brother in Christ, based on Matthew 7:15-20, and will not treat him as such.

That's about all I have to say about that.

 

[JimB]

I dont know about anybody else, but I have had my fill of Todd Bentley discussions.

Todd B. You can't keep a good man down. Apparently, you can't keep a bad one out of the limelight or off the stage, either.

~Jim

It is impossible to reason a person out of something he hasn't reasoned himself into. ~Jonathan Swift​

 

[mrmccormo]

Why does the man's theology need defending? We're well past the issue of "he's a sinner, but that doesn't mean he's going to hell", yet the issue of his bunk theology has never truly been put to rest.

And here I thought that it was the Spirit who leads and guides us into all truth. I suppose the reality is that we need Bentley-ish superstars to actually do that work, huh? At least, that's the impression I get based on all the defending this guy (and his contemporaries) gets.

 

[JimB]

*****
And here I thought that it was the Spirit who leads and guides us into all truth.
*****

True. But aren't we supposed to live the truth as well as talk it? You have to be discerning enough to know the truth from a lie. The Spirit does not lead us into deception. IMO, of course.

~Jim

 

[Evie12]

In a nutshell, based on his past and current teachings, actions, and affiliations, I don't believe the man is a fellow brother in Christ, based on Matthew 7:15-20, and will not treat him as such.

That's about all I have to say about that.

I think... and I quote your post, it's not up to us to judge... we can feel 'connected' to a ministry or not or we can leave it to Jesus to decide if His intentions we're good...

 

[mrmccormo]

True. But aren't we supposed to live the truth as well as talk it? You have to be discerning enough to know the truth from a lie. The Spirit does not lead us into deception. IMO, of course.

~Jim

Yes, the Spirit does not lead us into deception, but other spirits can lead us into deception, and they can be awfully tricky sometimes. And spirits are especially good at leading us into deception through the mouths of other people.

All the more reason to be wary of what others say, I suppose. But praise God that He is merciful and lets us come to His truth.

 

[Simon Peter]

Doctrine

Here's some quotes directly from Bentley's own teaching (in his own words):

• During this visitation the pastor’s wife (it was an AOG church) got totally whacked by the Holy Ghost - she began running around barking like a dog or squawking like a chicken as a powerful prophetic spirit came on her.

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=40&pid=954

• We need to pray for the Father to give us financial angels for our lives, our church and region. With this angelic assistance, we will prevail and overcome the warfare trying to hold back our financial breakthrough.

http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html

• Nothing would have convinced these hardened skeptics besides the power of God. Suddenly, I fell under the power in the convenience store and, on all fours, roared like a lion. Then the shop clerk ran with fear and dived behind the counter with the two dope heads right behind him.

http://www.injesus.com/index.php?module=message&task=view&MID=XA007Z25&GroupID=VB006FHZ&label=33&paging=all (Todd’s site)

• People began to scream out, "I'm in a trance and Jesus is coming to me" or others, all at the same time, would shout, "We are in a garden." Then I would see a lightening bolt and shout out, "Did you see it?" In response, many others would yell, "I saw it!" The lightning's of God were manifesting. The meeting became pandemonium for two and a half hours.

(Note: ‘pan’ means ‘everyone’; ‘demonium’ means…I’ll let you figure it out!)
http://www.injesus.com/index.php?module=message&task=view&MID=OA007Z26&GroupID=VB006FHZ&label=33&paging=all

• I go into intercession and become a partner with the angels by petitioning the Father for the angels that are assigned to getting me money: "Father, give me the angels in heaven right now that are assigned to get me money and wealth. And let those angels be released on my behalf. Let them go into the four corners of the earth and gather me money.

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=40

• But I've got to get the angels involved with my incense and say, "C'mon God, let those angels come and help fulfill your word-you promised me the blessing of the Lord that makes one rich and You add no sorrow with it."

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=40

• Being God’s servant means there is an authority available to us under or in the anointing, that in the moment we decree “favor” or just say the word “favor” over someone’s life (in the anointing), they have to come into favor! I want to emphasize “under or in the anointing” because it’s in moments of an open heaven, when there’s a realm of the spirit, that we can make decrees that change destinies through the spoken word.

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=235&bid=

• Since Jesus Christ is the first born, raised from the dead, and you have been made a joint heir with Him, you have the first born right to double portion. You actually have the right to "make a demand" on your Heavenly Father to restore and bring forth double portion inheritance and blessing in every area of your life.

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=227&pid=954&bid=955

• The same goes for poverty. Poverty is death. Look. Any kind of oppression in your life, any kind of torment, any kind of depression—it’s the work of the devil—and it is defeated because death no longer has dominion!

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=239&pid=954&bid=955

• Recently, I had several daily visitations of angels which lasted for weeks.

http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html

• I believe the angel showed up in Albany as a sign that God was endorsing what was taking place and that it was opening up a healing well. Everywhere I have seen this angel the miracles continue after I leave and a healing well is established in that church and in that city. When that angel visits, we have another John 5 Pool of Bethesda experience as God releases His approval.

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=31&pid=954

• Be praying, "Holy Spirit, open the eyes of my heart and let the angels come right now. Let me feel the presence of angels, let me see the angels and let angelic activity be released here now." You know why it is important to talk about heavenly things? Because we actually call forth those things that are not as though they were. As I speak out the truths of the heavenly realm, I'm actually prophesying angelic visitation. I wouldn't be surprised if you have a visitation of an angel today or if you have a prophetic dream.

http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html

• Even unsaved people in the meeting who were into Transcendental Meditation began to see the lightning's of God manifest in the physical realm. They saw lightning bolts zip across the room for two and a half hours. The congregation began to freak out. This prophetic download went on until 11:30 that night.

http://www.injesus.com/index.php?module=message&task=view&MID=OA007Z26&GroupID=VB006FHZ&label=33&paging=all

• Now let me talk about an angelic experience with Emma. Twice Bob Jones asked me about this angel that was in Kansas City in 1980: "Todd, have you ever seen the angel by the name of Emma?" He asked me as if he expected that this angel was appearing to me. Surprised, I said, "Bob, who is Emma?"

http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html

• As I stared at the angel with open eyes, the Lord said, "Here's Emma." I'm not kidding. She floated a couple of inches off the floor. It was almost like Kathryn Khulman in those old videos when she wore a white dress and looked like she was gliding across the platform. Emma appeared beautiful and young-about 22 years old-but she was old at the same time. She seemed to carry the wisdom, virtue and grace of Proverbs 31 on her life. She glided into the room, emitting brilliant light and colors. Emma carried these bags and began pulling gold out of them. Then, as she walked up and down the aisles of the church, she began putting gold dust on people.

http://www.upstreamca.org/angelichosts.html

• ”Each New Year, not only wanting, but also needing a clear commission from the Lord concerning direction for the year, I always seek Him about what lies ahead. With that purpose, recently, I asked my friend Bob Jones (a gifted, mature seer-prophet) about what God was saying to him concerning 2008….”

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=227&pid=954&bid=955

---

The links may no longer be active, and Bentley certainly doctored his teachings about the angel Emma when he started to get criticism. But assure you that these words were taken from Bentley's teachings in his own words. If you are in doubt about anything quoted, please let me know which and I will try to find a good active current source for you.


Character

There's also the question of Bentley's character. I'm not talking about sins prior to his supposed conversion, but since he has been in ministry.

How about just reading this one article on the credibility of a Bentley story (the Hotel fire):

http://www.christianresearchservice.com/ToddBentley7.htm


Here's another article on 'the hotel fire' story:

http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain39.htm


hmmm...anyone remember Mike Warnke?


peace,
Simon

 

[Tobias]

I would also have doubts about having a spiritual experience of going into Heaven and speaking with the Apostle Paul. This is occult to me, because it is communicating with the dead. King Saul communicated with the dead Samuel, and this signalled that he was no longer in touch with God and had to go and consult with a witch who raised Samuel from the dead. We actually don't know it was Samuel. It might have been a demon posing as Samuel, just as if the Apostle Paul's ghost came and spoke with me, it could only be a demon posing as Paul.

People go to great lengths in their objection to stuff that "technically" sounds like necromancy. Necromancy and mediumship are both condemned in the Bible, but what are they exactly? In our society, necromancy is magick preformed from either using the dead or energies that are released at the time of death; while mediums are like of prophets, but who speak on behalf of the dead rather than delivering messages from God.

To say that any contact with the dead is necromancy, is like saying that anybody who shows any sign of rebellion in their life is practicing witchcraft. Except of course, that the Bible actually tells us that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft; but it doesn't say that any and all contact with the dead is necromancy!

Jesus spoke with dead people on the Mount of Transfiguration. Paul talked about the cloud of witnesses, cheering us on as we run the race set before us. There is a huge, giant, enormous difference between Saul seeking out a medium because God would not speak to him anymore and he wanted to talk with his mentor Samuel -- and somebody having a vision of heaven where they happened to talk to a "dead" person there!

In the case with Saul, the Bible clearly states: "And Samuel said..." Not, "And the demon pretending to be Samuel said..." I can see no justification for writing our own pet theology into this story! This comes from those who believe all the saints are sleeping until the Resurrection, and therefore are not available for talking to. This is also why all spirits of the dead simply must be demons... all because it is the only way this particular theology works. No mention though on why Moses and Elijah were awake and available for Jesus to talk to.

In Paul's time, many people made the connection that eating meat offered to idols was the same as participating in the worship of said idol. Paul seemed to think differently. But he also cautioned us to be sensitive to our own conscience, ans well as to our weaker brothers and sisters.

I also look at how some would say that warfare is murder. The Bible condemns murder, but many people were sent to war by God. Many were executed by the command of God. Does that make murder ok? No. But it does prove that jumping to conclusions is wrong!

So many Christians jump to the conclusion that all contact with those who have died is necromancy. But this is not what the Bible says. Jesus had contact with dead saints, and brought Peter James and John along to watch! In OT times, seeking out a medium or necromancer was equivalent to seeking a different god besides the Lord. This is why it was forbidden. And this is why it is still dangerous in our day, if we attempt to ask the spirits of those who have died for answers when we should be looking to God!

 

[Faulty]

Jesus spoke with dead people on the Mount of Transfiguration. Paul talked about the cloud of witnesses

First, that's a catagory error. Jesus is God and we are not, and He was even glorified at the time. That makes a huge difference. The restriction is placed on living men contacting dead men.

His story concerning Lazarus and the rich man (Lk 16) showed angels interacting with dead men and (Lazarus carried to Paradise by angels), and dead men interacting with each other (Lazarus and Abraham, Abraham and the rich man). These interactions were not forbidden.

Peter, James, and John did not interact with Moses and Elijah, and even when Peter offered interaction, only to build them a tent, that interaction was not permitted either.


Paul's "cloud of witnesses" comment has a context. Hebrews 12:1 starts with the word "therefore". Well, what was the word "therefore" there for?

It's a conclusion drawn from Hebrews 11:39-40, "And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect."

And who are the "all these"? They are those who give us a great witness of God's faithfulness, Abel, Enoch, Moses, Noah, David, Abraham, Gideon, etc.

This doesn't say anything about dead people watching us. In fact Eccesiastes 9:5-6 tells us the dead have no knowledge or portion here among the living. They are not hanging around as some ghost awaiting some "resolution".

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.
Eccl 9:5-6
​

 

[Child of JC]

I can't help but wonder if this whole situation has been a big test for the Body of Christ. Bentley screwed up, and I think God has been interested in how we've responded to it. Have we done what He would have us do or what we thought is right?

When King David had a man murdered after sleeping with his wife, God didn't remove him from his throne. God accepted David's repentance even though David stayed with her and married her. God did not strip David of His kingdom. David learned from his mistake. David continued to chase after God, and God did great things through the imperfect man.

Bentley screwed up. How the Body has reacted and responded to the situation because of that screw up is also important to God. We have the bible and the law all figured out, but do we carry the heart of Christ? Do we exercise the truth with love? We're so great at pointing out who the sinner is, but not so great believing there is good news for those who have disappointed us.

How can we look from the outside and judge the authenticity of his restoration process? How can we know if his repentance has been accepted by God or not? How can we know anything about this man's heart without knowing him personally? We hear about him and make assumptions about his spiritual condition; that's dangerous.

God can use Bentley if He wants, and I don't know if He wants to or not, I'm NOT CLAIMING ANYTHING. This is just a "what if" question... what if He decides to work through Bentley and his ministry? What if God plans on doing great things though Bentley? What if this was all a refining process? Will you reject God because of the vessel He could choose to work through?

The church rips apart imperfect leaders- that's clearly demonstrated here at CF. But there has never been a perfect leader (Moses, Abraham, David, to name a few). Our standards are wrong because if any of my examples were leaders today, they would be rejected.

Try to remember these questions are not about Bentley's heart, they are about yours (and mine ).

 

[Simon Peter]

I can't help but wonder if this whole situation has been a big test for the Body of Christ. Bentley screwed up, and I think God has been interested in how we've responded to it. Have we done what He would have us do or what we thought is right?

When King David had a man murdered after sleeping with his wife, God didn't remove him from his throne. God accepted David's repentance even though David stayed with her and married her. God did not strip David of His kingdom. David learned from his mistake. David continued to chase after God, and God did great things through the imperfect man.

David was imperfect and a sinner, but he was a great prophet, the most important King of Israel, a man after God's own heart, a hero of the faith, a mighty warrior, an author of the Holy Scriptures, and a 'great grandfather' of our Lord.
Todd Bentley is no King David.

How can we look from the outside and judge the authenticity of his restoration process?

'Restoration' means 'to return to a previous condition'. Why would anyone want to return a false teacher, false prophet and liar to his previous condition?

If Bentley was to humbly, clearly and genuinely confess his false doctrines, false teachings, false prophecy, lies, adultery, drunkeness, greed and deception; then perhaps the sanctification process could begin in his life.

Once that process has taken root and produced genuine fruit over a period of time, under the guidance and accountablity of men of God, then maybe Bentley would live up to Biblical standards expected of Elders and leaders, and he could enter the ministry for the first time.


peace,
Simon

 

[Child of JC]

'Restoration' means 'to return to a previous condition'.


If Bentley was to humbly, clearly and genuinely confess his false doctrines, false teachings, false prophecy, lies, adultery, drunkeness, greed and deception; then perhaps the sanctification process could begin in his life.

Once that process has taken root and produced genuine fruit over a period of time, under the guidance and accountablity of men of God, then maybe Bentley would live up to Biblical standards expected of Elders and leaders, and he could enter the ministry for the first time.


peace,
Simon

The process of restoration is to be restored unto God`s will and His Word, not necessarily back to something that was. Those that have been walking through the process with Bentley have the opposite testimony than what you have given. They are men of God who believe in the Power of His Love, and believed God wanted to heal a heart. They say Bentley is working hard and doing well. I don`t think they are naive men. They are leaders themselves- good ones in my opinion.

Here`s the latest update on Bentley`s progress...
http://www.morningstarministries.or...l_Bulletins/2011/Special_Bulletin_Update.aspx

Here`s part of the final paragraph`it makes a great point...
Todd will be a reminder to us that it is possible to stand after such a great fall. We all live by grace, and only by grace. We desperately need examples of those who have walked in integrity all of their lives. But when there is sin, we need examples of restoration to bring hope to the broken people, many of whom are in our congregations. God will use Todd to be a message of restoration.

 

[Tobias]

First, that's a catagory error. Jesus is God and we are not, and He was even glorified at the time. That makes a huge difference. The restriction is placed on living men contacting dead men.

His story concerning Lazarus and the rich man (Lk 16) showed angels interacting with dead men and (Lazarus carried to Paradise by angels), and dead men interacting with each other (Lazarus and Abraham, Abraham and the rich man). These interactions were not forbidden.

Peter, James, and John did not interact with Moses and Elijah, and even when Peter offered interaction, only to build them a tent, that interaction was not permitted either.

I do hope you realize that by shooting a few holes in my theory, it doesn't, simply by default, prove yours to be correct, right?

I know Jesus was God. But I don't think He would purposely lead His best disciples into temptation! It does not tell us in scripture that they were forbidden to also speak with Moses and Elijah, or if the stipulation was that they needed to be transfigured like Jesus was. Or if Jesus was doing something that we humans are totally not allowed to do. Generally speaking though, Jesus was made human to be an example of what we should and shouldn't do.

Paul's "cloud of witnesses" comment has a context. Hebrews 12:1 starts with the word "therefore". Well, what was the word "therefore" there for?

It's a conclusion drawn from Hebrews 11:39-40, "And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect."

And who are the "all these"? They are those who give us a great witness of God's faithfulness, Abel, Enoch, Moses, Noah, David, Abraham, Gideon, etc.

This doesn't say anything about dead people watching us. In fact Eccesiastes 9:5-6 tells us the dead have no knowledge or portion here among the living. They are not hanging around as some ghost awaiting some "resolution".

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.
Eccl 9:5-6
​

It is possible that Paul was not talking about all these giants of Faith watching over us and cheering us on. But how do you know they are not? Many Christians believe that they do! I'm not sure what you were trying to say about the passage that supports you point.

Ecclesiastes is a book that is difficult to quote just one verse out of. It's a lot like quoting Job. You have to take the entire book in context.

Eccl 9:2 It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear.

This is just two verses up from what you posted. Do you believe there is no heaven or hell? That the righteous and unrighteous share the exact same fate? If it is true that the dead know nothing, then it must also be true (from the exact same verse) that we do not remember any of them either!

I cannot see how this passage supports a doctrine that talking to saints in heaven is forbidden. Perhaps Solomon was talking about people who die without God; or perhaps things were different before Christ died. Jesus told the thief on the cross next to him that "Today you will be with me in Paradise." Is that thief dead, with no memory or knowledge of anything, because your one verse in Eccl. supersedes the rest of scripture? Jesus argued with the Pharisees that "God is the God of the living, not the dead," and therefore Abraham Issac and Jacob were all very much alive.

 

[Simon Peter]

Hi JC,

I believe our God has compassion on and restores sinners.
But God also condemns and warns us about false teachers.

Everything about Bentley is false. I have seen no genuine repentance. There's been words that have talked around repentance. But can you show me any statement from Bentley that clearly and explicitly repents of his sins?

The men who are overseeing the "restoration" are the foxes watching the hen house.

Here's what Bill Johnson says:

I then strongly encouraged him to take advantage of Rick Joyner’s offer for him to move out to Morningstar Ministries in Charlotte, North Carolina.

hmmm...you'd think Johnson would have strongly encouraged Bentley to move back to his wife and children in Canada, who are now growing up without a father while he marries his personal assistant/baby sitter/nanny!

But Bentley in Canada won't be raising them much money.

Then here's an interesting statement from Rick Joyner about Bentley:

"he has already led an estimated one million people to the Lord"

SPECIAL BULLETIN - Revival and the Todd Bentley Restoration by Rick Joyner : MorningStar Ministries

One million conversions...yeah right!
Sadly this reveals just how gullible they know the church to be.

I read the testimony of a former Bentley staffer who travelled abroad with Bentley's ministry, and he was horrified at how Bentley exagerated and lied about conversions. He confronted bentley about this and was just given a waffled excuse...




peace,
Simon

 

[Svt4Him]

Jesus was God when He was on earth? I thought He lowered Himself...must just be me.

 

[Faulty]

I do hope you realize that by shooting a few holes in my theory, it doesn't, simply by default, prove yours to be correct, right?

I know Jesus was God. But I don't think He would purposely lead His best disciples into temptation! It does not tell us in scripture that they were forbidden to also speak with Moses and Elijah, or if the stipulation was that they needed to be transfigured like Jesus was. Or if Jesus was doing something that we humans are totally not allowed to do. Generally speaking though, Jesus was made human to be an example of what we should and shouldn't do.

Do you really consider yours to be a theory, or a justification of a practice?

It is possible that Paul was not talking about all these giants of Faith watching over us and cheering us on. But how do you know they are not? Many Christians believe that they do! I'm not sure what you were trying to say about the passage that supports you point.

Like I said, that verse has a context, and that context, either before the "cloud of witnesses" comment says nothing about people in heaven seeing us, but it does serve to summarize Hebrews 11 quite nicely, as it was designed to do.

How do I know? Because of the Ecclesiastes passage I cited. It doesn't matter how many christians believe otherwise, because it's not something decided by majority vote.

Ecclesiastes is a book that is difficult to quote just one verse out of. It's a lot like quoting Job. You have to take the entire book in context.

Eccl 9:2 It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear.

This is just two verses up from what you posted. Do you believe there is no heaven or hell? That the righteous and unrighteous share the exact same fate? If it is true that the dead know nothing, then it must also be true (from the exact same verse) that we do not remember any of them either!

I cannot see how this passage supports a doctrine that talking to saints in heaven is forbidden. Perhaps Solomon was talking about people who die without God; or perhaps things were different before Christ died. Jesus told the thief on the cross next to him that "Today you will be with me in Paradise." Is that thief dead, with no memory or knowledge of anything, because your one verse in Eccl. supersedes the rest of scripture? Jesus argued with the Pharisees that "God is the God of the living, not the dead," and therefore Abraham Issac and Jacob were all very much alive.

I am quite familiar with Ecclesiastes, being one of my favorite books, I've been through its entirety many times. And the same fate does happen to the righteous and the wicked alike, we all die, which is what Solomon was talking about. In fact, that's the whole story of the book. It starts out proclaiming, "Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher, vanity of vanities! All is vanity. What does man gain by all the toil at which he toils under the sun? A generation goes, and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever."

The entire book is about the futility of striving in this life since we all just die and are forgotten anyway!

The point is if the dead have nothing more to do here in the earth, righteous or otherwise, then they are not available for us to converse with. So, if you are talking to someone who is dead, it ain't really them.

This reminds me, I was in a nearby graveyard just two weekends ago, and I happened across a headstone of someone who died over a century ago. The stone was worn and the plot basically neglected. Inscribed on the stone were these words, "Gone, but not forgotten." My first thought was, "Wanna bet?"

I used this as an example to my kids, that this man likely had a family who loved him dearly, and was greatly missed for a time, but eventually his family also died, and generations came and went, and it's likely no one living of this man's family has come to see him in many decades, and propably don't even know of him at this point. But the only thing this man has now are his works, his coming day of judgment, and his standing before God, because nothing else he ever did, from his first steps as a baby to his final breath, will ever matter to anyone else ever again. He, and everything he did, has all been lost to time.

 

[gratefulgrace]

Todd I believe was truly saved when Fresh Fire started there was a genuine move of God here in the Vancouver area and many souls were blessed and motivated to listen to The Holy spirit and get out and witness to the man on the street. I never attended any meetings, but I have personal friends who had true encounters with the Holy Spirt at them. The problem I believe was nailed in Oscarr's first post. HE was too young to be thrust into such prominence so soon and he got puffed up and then became decieved. His outward appearance changed drastically over the few years he was in ministry. The tattoos and earrings were not there at the start, even with his alternate lifestyle. Why is that and why get them afterward? Because he now had MONEY and I believe he was building HIS image and not God's. thrusting himself in the spotlight. Perhaps he had a notion that this would make him more appealing to those into that sort of thing. No one I know has ever condemned Todd for his past before getting saved the outing was not made by a christian organization I do not believe and is against the law in Canada as juvenile offenders are protected. Like Simon says there is much more to be concerned about after. It is hard to reconcile his complete emphasis on angels bearing bags of gold, with Pauls admonitions in scripture against listening to any other doctrine that the one that preaches Christ crucified.


Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

1Cr 2:1 ¶ And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
1Cr 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Gal 6:14
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

 

[Tobias]

Do you really consider yours to be a theory, or a justification of a practice?

Hmm. no. I don't see it as a justification. I don't see you or anybody else taking the time to justify the belief that all contact with saints in heaven is forbidden. It is just generally accepted as the "safe" or "default" position a Christian is supposed to hold, so nobody searches the scriptures to see if it is true.

You brought up some good points concerning the scriptures I used to back my position. Unfortunately, similar issues revolve around all the scriptures that might be used to support the "standard" position. Necromancy =/= talking with saints in heaven!

I am quite familiar with Ecclesiastes, being one of my favorite books, I've been through its entirety many times. And the same fate does happen to the righteous and the wicked alike, we all die, which is what Solomon was talking about. In fact, that's the whole story of the book. It starts out proclaiming, "Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher, vanity of vanities! All is vanity. What does man gain by all the toil at which he toils under the sun? A generation goes, and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever."

The entire book is about the futility of striving in this life since we all just die and are forgotten anyway!

The point is if the dead have nothing more to do here in the earth, righteous or otherwise, then they are not available for us to converse with. So, if you are talking to someone who is dead, it ain't really them.

Well, it was one of my favorite books too at one time! And I am quite sure that you are missing the point if you think it says ^that!

This reminds me, I was in a nearby graveyard just two weekends ago, and I happened across a headstone of someone who died over a century ago. The stone was worn and the plot basically neglected. Inscribed on the stone were these words, "Gone, but not forgotten." My first thought was, "Wanna bet?"

I used this as an example to my kids, that this man likely had a family who loved him dearly, and was greatly missed for a time, but eventually his family also died, and generations came and went, and it's likely no one living of this man's family has come to see him in many decades, and propably don't even know of him at this point. But the only thing this man has now are his works, his coming day of judgment, and his standing before God, because nothing else he ever did, from his first steps as a baby to his final breath, will ever matter to anyone else ever again. He, and everything he did, has all been lost to time.

The passage doesn't say, "lost in time". This person buried in the graveyard was not forgotten, not when the head stone was made! How do you justify taking one line of that verse literally and immediately, and the next one it's ok if it takes a hundred years before it comes true?