To vote in favor of sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and tradition
- Thread starter BobRyan
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Ok, I clearly understand your point of view now. My question is, if people study the Bible on their own with the guidance of the Holy Spirit alone (and just to be clear I do believe the Holy Spirit DOES guide us to the truth), how can we as Holy Spirit-guided Christians have interpreted the Bible 100,000 different ways? Do you believe any Church or group of people have enough insight or better said, inspiration from the Holy Spirit to be useful for our study of scripture?
So I also want to ask, did the church you attend guide you through the interpretation of scripture or do you have a relationship with God and the Bible? The reason I ask is because I think we are influenced by the interpretation of scripture that our church teaches. My aim is not to assume I know your theological process. I am interested in learning the method of correctly interpreting scripture with no teacher or guidance other than the Holy Spirit.
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Gary K
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Most people don't listen to HS. It's always been that way since sin entered the earth.
I was abused physically, emotionally and sexually by my family. I'm an SDA like they were but I spent years in drug addiction so I've studied my way back into the church. No, the church did not guide me back into it. The HS did. I have never studied with a pastor or elder in the church. I have experienced the physical presence of the HS twice in my life. Once was back in the 70s just after I was rebaptised. The gal I was dating were in the back seat of the car and her dad and my old man were up front. She asked me how she could find what I had and I told her to bow her head and ask God into her life. She did and before she raised her head I knew what decision she had made as the physical presence of the HS filled the car. I told her congratulations on her decision and she asked me how I knew what she had decided. I just told I could feel the HS enter the car.
The second time I felt the HS was not long before my mother-in-law passed away. We had gone for a Sabbath afternoon drive and stopped at her place on the way back home. It was just about sundown so we stayed there until sundown and had sundown worship. We sang a couple of songs read a devotional and had prayer. During that time I felt the HS once again. My mil had not treated her daughter very well for many years so when she died from the complications from alzheimers I was able to comfort my wife with that as she did not feel like her mother would be in heaven because of her cruelty.
I told you all I know about to allow God to guide us. The other thing I would say is claim God's promises in the Bible such as the HS guiding us as it builds a lot of faith to claim His promises and then see them being fulfilled in our lives. Also I would read Jesus's words and take His advice where He told His disciples how to increase their faith.
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boughtwithaprice
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Do you agree that Our Lord is One?
A: yes
Who did He say would build His Church?
A: Jesus said, I will build my Church
To whom did He breathe on and give the great commission?
A: the Apostles, not a book or a confession
Did He warn us and give us instructions of things to come?
Consider the parable of the Wheat and the Tares.
Jesus planted the garden and Satan placed tares (weeds) in it. What did Jesus then say to do?
Set fire to the whole thing and rebuild the Church under the direction of men? No, He said let them both grow, the wheat and the tares. It is the Lord’s garden and He makes the rules.
Sure, the Church is full of tares, but the wheat stay in the Church and grow along side the tares, to practice prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. To live in poverty, chastity and obedience. We are in agony when we see the Church corrupt, but that never gives us the authority to turn our backs and attempt to form a church in our image rather than God’s.
We stay in the Church, and God’s grace flows by the Holy Spirit, not the righteousness of man. Jesus says be faithful unto death, and I will give you a crown of life.
If the reformers were calling the Church to repentance and sorrow for sin, I am not sure what would have happened, but they argued for the destruction of the Church, which is the body of Christ. Faith builds up, it does not tear asunder. What over abundance of grace would God have shed on us if the reformers had advocated healing of the body instead of tearing it apart, and that includes the great schism also
Jesus planted one garden and He calls all people from every nation tribe and tongue to that one garden. It is full of tares like He said it would be, but the enemy put them there to scare sheep away and make them think they could do better somewhere else. Don’t come to the garden Jesus planted, go build your own, His is completely corrupt. By implication, it shows that we do not trust God to know what He is doing, and He requires us to do it better than Him.
Anyone can make a charge that the Catholic Church is corrupt, and be correct, yet it does not justify schism, because Jesus told us it would be this way and allow Him to take care of it
Despite the corruption, the Church maintains the seven sacraments instituted by Christ, and the grace of the Holy Spirit flows through them Ex Opere Operato, not by the righteousness of men. I can testify to this, as I was sick and He healed me, blind but now I can see. It cannot be said that I was healed by Beelzebub, as Satan does not cast out sin. Brother, you don’t know what you are missing
Yes, in modern times there are penny of tares. We deal with the sex abuse crisis, the monetary and political corruption crisis, the watering down of the Gospel crisis, the lack of scientific rigor and quest for truth crisis, the confusing improper teaching of true chastity crisis. The list goes on, the world is on fire all around us, but we do not fear. We stay because Jesus told us to do so
The fires and the crises will pass, the Church will remain. Where would we be if we leave?
We say, as Peter did, Lord, you told us it would be this way, but where else would we go? You alone have the words of eternal life.
Don’t look at the fires and the corruption, read the Catechism and search for truth with all of your heart
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boughtwithaprice
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So your contention is that God abandoned His people, so you abandon His Church. I don’t see any example of that in Scripture.
Even Jesus, who rebuked the Pharisees for their corruption, told His followers that He did not come to discard the law and the prophets, rather to fulfill. He said the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat, so do what ever they tell you, but don’t do what they do.
The Temple remained intact after Jesus resurrection and the Apostles taught there as a fulfillment of the Old Covenant and proclamation of the New Covenant. They never spoke against the Temple of God, and the Temple remained until God Himself had it destroyed by the Romans forty years after His death and resurrection.
It is symbolic that the Romans destroyed the Temple of the Old Covenant and God moved the Holy See to Rome with Peter and Paul to symbolize Jesus’ victory over the world, as He said, I have overcome the world.
The same teaching would be given to disciples today. The Apostles sit in Peter’s seat, so do whatever they tell you, but don’t follow them into corruption. Unless your righteousness exceeds those that occupy Peter’s seat, you will in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven.
Show me in scripture where it ever said, I will abandon my people and my Church and you will have to build a new one for me, because I don’t know what I am doing. I am too weak to set up a visible Church, so I need other men to do it.
You claim to follow the Bible? Show me where it says to do that please. I’ll be waiting.
While you are at it, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and show me where it contradicts scripture. If it is corrupt, that should be an easy task for you. If you won’t do it, I don’t know how I can believe your claim that you follow the Bible and not your own thoughts. If I were to believe you, would I not be following a sinful man?
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boughtwithaprice
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It’s not that the Devil is a poor liar. He is the light bearer and is very capable of making his logic appear right and true. We know that Satan can do that to individual men, as Proverbs teaches us that there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Satan’s line of thinking is never more apparent than in the political world. No one wants evil for its own sake, so the language is euphemized.
It’s no longer pro child sacrifice with brutal death. It is called pro-choice. It is no longer prudent avoidance of sex purely for pleasure because everyone knows that the libido is so powerful as to cloud our judgement, it is called reproductive freedom. Even high school students know when a man’s judgement has been clouded by his libido. We called it the little head thinking for the big head, but we still went along with lack of purity because if no one wants to have sex with us, we were made to feel worthless. Men would virtue signal that they are feminist and “pro woman “ for the simple reason that he wanted to be worthy of her sexual favors. I remember the expression, “I’m a nineties guy”
As Christians, we can see through these lies as we know that freedom to sin is no freedom at all. We mortify the deeds of the flesh, not to completely eliminate them, but to bring them under the control of the will. Sex is for having children, not for pleasure only. If I am not trying to have children or in a proper marital relationship, sex has no place in my behavior.
Of course, unbelievers laugh us to scorn and try to shame us as prudes or involuntary celibates, but we stay strong in the faith.
But, Satan is not a one dimensional liar. There are seven deadly sins, with lust being only one of them. Even though Our Lady of Fatima told us that more souls wind up in hell for sins of the flesh than for any other reason, it is not Satan’s only weapon.
He uses pride and flattery to distract us from lust. He first tells you, that you are a modern man and much wiser than the fathers of the Church in certain things. The fathers did not have access to your technology, so they could not possibly know that sex can be enjoyed sterilely, and there were a lot less people back then and the Earth needed to be populated. Prohibitions against deviant sexual habits were in place to keep the population growing. Now that we are over populated, God’s law no longer applies.
A Christian should say, oh really? That is the dumbest thing that I ever heard. Let me get this straight. I have to tell God that He is wrong because following His laws would destroy the Earth or make life difficult? Even though God Himself gave us the example of accepting unjust punishment and hardship for righteousness sake, you are telling me that the easy life is better and we need to increase our pleasure in this world? You mean the one where we get to live for about a hundred years and only get to experience adult freedom for about 40 of those years if we are lucky? That is what you are selling?
Excuse me, Our Lord suffered and died for us, and our suffering here is a way to imitate Him and grow in holiness. Our goal is the Beatific vision and eternal bliss, not short term creature comforts. Our Lord said the easy way leads to destruction, but narrow is the way and straight is the gate that leads to life. He told us that we are to count it all joy if we suffer for righteousness sake. You want us to disregard His commands because we are afraid of suffering and oppression? I’d rather buy some guys swamp land in Florida that he always tells me is for sale or try to get some of the billion dollars that a Nigerian dude is trying to give away, than buy your crap!!
Sounds simple right? Unfortunately many fall for Satan’s lies. The promise that the gates of hell would not prevail was given to the Apostles, and thereby the Church that was built by Christ, with the Holy Spirit, through the stewardship of the Apostles. The promise to lead into all truth was not given to individual Christians apart from Apostolic teaching. There is One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one forgiveness of sins.
Want proof? Only the Apostolic Church has maintained the teaching on sexual purity. Deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Jesus, not in name only, but in word and in deed. All of the Protestant churches have accepted contraception as a morally neutral act rather than the evil that it is. Contraception grants the illusion of irresponsible sex, and even if no child is ever conceived or aborted, the pursuit of pleasure dulls the mind for the things of God. Its practitioners become lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. Just look at the reasons for doing so. “I can’t afford to have kids or I am not ready to be a father” how about choosing not to have intercourse rather than flaunt God’s law?
Can’t do that? You have needs? No one needs to have sex. We are made to strongly desire to have it, but it is a powerful urge, and if indulged outside the grace of God, it ruins the soul. If you are caught in its grasp, one needs to call on the Lord and repent. He will save you. To call on the Lord and not repent is to mock Him, and is taking His name in vain. He says He will not count him guiltless who takes His name in vain, and if you love me keep my commandments.
Do you believe that the laws of God no longer apply because we are modern and have evolved passed them? Are others telling you the same thing? Then you need to repent and return to the Lord. I have called on the Lord and repented. When I submitted to His full authority and denied myself, the sin was taken away, and my desire to return to it is gone. He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, not some time in the distant future, but now is the day of salvation.
If you think that you know better, then read the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding the subject of your contention. Tell me where Catholic teaching contradicts scripture. If you oppose the Church, show me the reasons. It is not prudent to oppose the Church with slogans and rhetoric. As scripture itself says, comes let us reason together says the Lord
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Gary K
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1. The Sabbath
2. Worshiping images
3. An eternal hell
4. An immortal soul
5. The Catholic idea of the trinity
6. Justification by works
7. The 10 commandments
8. Praying to saints
9. Mariology
10. Mary as an intercessor between us and Jesus
That's just off the top of my head and these are non negotiable in my mind.
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boughtwithaprice
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Wow, I didn’t expect total honesty. I honestly appreciate your reply. You have listed your perception of the Catholic Church, but not who she actually is, but you have shared your thoughts and for that you have my respect. That gives us something to discuss. I am curious how you arrived at your non negotiables.
1. The Sabbath.
The Catholic Church does not teach to profane the Sabbath, eliminate the Sabbath, nor changed the Sabbath. I’ll refer you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, not another human that claims to speak for the Catholic Church, not even my words but the Catechism itself. Read that, and if I said something wrong we can talk about it in context of the Catechism.
My understanding is that we are in a perpetual Sabbath since the death a resurrection of Our Lord. The last words of Our Lord prior to His resurrection and glorification were, “It is finished”
The Old Covenant was over and no one was justified before God any longer by performing the works of the law.
This is why there are no more animal sacrifices, no circumcision, no new moon festivals, no Passover and no Sabbath as a means of salvation.
Our salvation is in the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ and no other. My allowing my body to be circumcised, or submitting my body to the power of a day would do nothing to earn me salvation.
The biggest thing, and what convicted me the most, was coming to the realization that God does not owe me salvation. He gives me free will to put my faith in Him or in my outward appearance of doing the works of the law, which were only a shadow of things to come.
Yet God is merciful. He realizes that not everyone comes to full understanding all at once. His word says some men hold one day above another, others hold everyday alike. The word of God condemns neither man.
The Catholic Church holds worship services everyday of the year, everyday more than seven times per day. The Liturgy of the Hours takes place at 6am, 9am, 12noon, 3pm, 6pm, 9pm, and an office of readings EVERYDAY. Those are just times for praise and worship with the Psalms and prayers to sing forth the joy of salvation in the Lord. This follows Our Lord’s command to pray without ceasing. Why would you condemn us for doing that and elevate yourself for deciding to show up once per week on a Saturday? We are there on Saturday too, you could join in the prayer praise and worship instead of condemning us. If you participated in the Liturgy of the Hours, you would go through the whole Bible every three years with prayer time to contemplate it multiple times per day. It is a real joy to drink deep breath of the well that never runs dry. When you love the Lord, you will see that you really do want Him more than once per week, yet you are not condemned for not being able to worship Him that often. We are a communion of saints, and the Church is praying and worshipping even when you cannot. Do you condemn her for doing that?
Saying the Sabbath is necessary for salvation is relying on a work, as it takes your flesh to do it. Did you not say that salvation is not of works?
Priests and religious keep the Liturgy of the Hours, and the laity are encouraged to participate as they are able, but some of us have to work for a living. The Church calls us at a minimum to worship on Sunday to remember our Lord’s resurrection and outpouring of His Holy Spirit on Pentecost along with other Holy Days of obligation to remember important parts of Our Lord’s work in salvation. The Church does not condemn the Sabbath.
2. Worshipping Images.
Idolatry is making an image or work of human hands and calling that God. You say that Catholics violate the second commandment, but is that true? Do you know the first commandment? No, it is not part of the Decalogue.
The first commandment is love the Lord your God with your whole heart, whole mind, and whole soul. Imagination is part of our mind. Images and statues serve to spark our imaginations and orient them towards God. We don’t worship statues as God, because we know that are not.
I don’t know any Catholic Church that has made an image and called it God. No one had seen God at anytime, how can we make an image of Him? The images that we make are of saints and our imagination of Our Lord Jesus as He has come in the flesh. Certain artists have portrayed the Father as what they imagine a fatherly figure to be, but that is an artist’s depiction and not worshipped as God. We use images to align our imaginations toward God, not to worship them as God. We currently see through a glass darkly, but then face to face.
We do adore the Eucharist and open our minds in prayer to the words of Our Lord. This IS my body. This IS the blood of the New Covenant poured out for you. We did not make this up. Our Lord said it with His own words. We use the time in adoration to contemplate those words in prayer, and we eat His flesh and drink His blood as He commands, as He said unless we do that we have no life in us. We carry on as the Church did for her first 1500 years until Zwingli tried to make it symbolic. We reject his theology and carry on as the Church had always done.
You can call us idolaters, but that is a smear and untrue. It is not idolatry to read the word of God and put it into practice.
3 and 4 are basically the same as if the soul is not immortal then how can hell be eternal?
The word of God tells us that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. God had given you life, are you saying He will take it back?
Also, Jesus says to fear not those that can kill the body, but fear the one that once He has killed the body, cast you body and soul into hell, fear Him. You object that why should sins committed in time, a finite period, warrant eternal punishment? The word of God answers that.
Everyone knows John 3:16, but do you recall John 3:17? He that believeth not is condemned already because he has rejected the only Son of God. God does not send us to hell for our sins, though we deserve it. If He did, we would all be there. Those that are in hell have rejected the only Son of God, and they will have all eternity to wail and gnash their teeth as to why they did that. The glory, majesty and justice of a loving and Holy God deserves no less.
Eternal separation from God is a much more fearful punishment than to die once, be resurrected, and die again. Do you really want to guess that eternity does not exist? If I saw you there, my heart would break for you, as does God’s.
5 I would be interested in what objections you have for the Trinity. I thought SDA believes in the Trinity as is required to call yourself a Christian by this website. In that not true?
6 justification by works
I have already explained that the Catholic Church does not teach justification by works. When we are born again through baptism, as Our Lord says we are born of water and the Spirit, we are given three gifts, Faith, Hope and Charity. Those come from God alone, and not by the works of man.
If it were by works then God could be considered a merchant or a lawyer, as if to be obligated to grant salvation for labor or judicial fiat, rather than by love and sacrifice.
Jesus does not just look on one prayer and say ok I have to save him no matter what he does. His word even says that not everyone that says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those that DO the will of my Father in heaven. When we are born again, we are babes in Christ, and babes have to grow up. We do that by examining His law and conforming ourselves to it, but we don’t do that on our own. Christ tells us that He will complete His work in us. All we have to do is invite Him to do it. I stand at the door and knock, if any man open the door…….
Paul says it is no longer I that liveth, but Christ liveth in me. Also the word tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and faith without works is dead.
No, justification is not of works, but the just will work by the grace of God. They cannot say Lord, Lord and do nothing, or do vain works which God has not commanded and expect a reward. The instructions are all there in the Bible. No where does it say to do nothing because we are not saved by works.
7. The Ten Commandments.
Did Christ emphasize the Decalogue and how it was numbered? I don’t see an example of that in scripture. Christ emphasized two great commandments. Love the Lord your God with your whole heart, whole mind and whole soul. Love your neighbor as yourself. Those that do that fulfill the Law and the Prophets. Jesus said that if you love Him, keep His commandments. He did not emphasize the Ten Commandments or their numbering. They are important as He said I have not come to destroy the law and the prophets. Jesus commandments are for is in Matthew 5-7, and that are more strict than the 10 commandments, as He said unless your righteousness exceeds the scribes and Pharisees , you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
8,9, and 10 can be answered by Jesus statement. The Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus sits on a throne and rules a kingdom, not a democracy. We are not going to be a bunch of millennials entering heaven and telling Jesus that we took a vote and we say this is how it shall be.
Mary was prophesied by God in His words to the serpent in Genesis. I will put enmity between you and the woman, between her seed and your seed….. he was not taking to Eve. Mary is the work of God’s hands and His mother by His word, not ours. Mary had the Son of God growing in her womb, and raised the Son of God from a babe, and God subjected Himself to her. No other human can know what that’s like. God commands us to honor our mother and father. Would He disobey His own command and refuse to honor His mother?
Being a kingdom, there is one mediator between God and all of mankind, but He did not organize us as completely independent individuals but we all make up the body of Christ. Everyone has different gifts, but we all work together for each others benefit and the glory of God. Have you not ever asked anyone else for help or asked someone to pray for you. Wouldn’t you want the help and advise from someone that spent over 30 years talking with and raising God Himself? We can all individually experience God, but inn communion with His body the Church. He never said, ok I died for you, every man for himself
The Catechism can explain this better than I can
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Gary K
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Honesty is always what you will get from me.
1. Exodus 20: 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
It's not legalistic to keep the Sabbath because I love God. I don't don't keep it because I think keeping it will save me.
2. Exodus 20: 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Once again I don't refrain from worshiping idols because I think not worshiping them will save me. I do it because God has done so much for me that I love Him with all that I am.
3 and 4. Psalm 146: 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Genesis 2: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.*n3
The word translated as soul comes from the Hebrew word nephesh which means:
[*StrongsHebrew*]
5315
נפשׁ
nephesh neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing {creature} that {is} animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a {literal} accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - {any} {appetite} {beast} {body} {breath} {creature} X dead ({-ly}) {desire} X [dis-] {contented} X {fish} {ghost} + {greedy} {he} heart ({-y}) ({hath} X jeopardy of) life (X in {jeopardy}) {lust} {man} {me} {mind} {mortality} {one} {own} {person} {pleasure} ({her-} {him-} {my-} thy-) {self} them (your) {-selves} + {slay} {soul} + {tablet} {they} {thing} (X she) {will} X would have it.
1Corinthians 15: 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
There is a lot more on this subject on scripture.
The 10 Commandments. If you love your neighbor as yourself will you steal from him, murder him, sleep with his wife, lie to him, covet his possessions? Nope. Once again I do not do these things because I think refraining from it will save me, but because God has put His love for them within me.
Trinity. SDAs believe in the trinity but not the Catholic version of the trinity. We believe the Father Son, and Holy Spirit are three coequal, self existing persons who all think and act the same way. They are one in character but play different roles in saving us. Thus Jesus dwells in us through the person of the Holy Spirit.
Justification: As a Protestant I believe we are saved by faith, not faith plus works.
Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Therefore works have nothing to do with our salvation. We can't be saved in rebellion against God which is shown by sinning on a regular basis. but it is our relationship with God that saved us.
John 17: 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
It is in knowing God that we are saved. Jesus said:
Matthew 7: 21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
There is only one sinless human who ever lived, and that person is Jesus. There were other people who were prophecied of in the OT. John the Baptist and Cyrus are two that come to mind immediately. Were they sinless? Of course not. Jesus was born of a human who had the same nature we have.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
This is all the time I have right now so I'll come back later and finish answering your post.
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Gary K
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Lastly, we are saved through our individual relationship with God, I can not be saved through you knowing God and vice versa. We are not saved as a body of people. I am not saved because I'm an Adventist and you're not saved because you're a Catholic. We are saved as individuals.
Revelation 22: 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
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boughtwithaprice
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We are saved individually, but into one Body. Just as our own bodies have multiple cells, they all work together for the good of one body
We are not multiple single celled organisms, and none of us possess the complete glory of Christ as ourselves. We are all dependent on each other and work together for the good of the body of Christ. A cell removed from the body will die. An individual that strives to live his own outside the body of Christ will be lost
We have one mediator, but we live in one body as the Church, the bride of Christ. God does not practice polygamy, as His commandments show adultery is sin. We then ask, who is the Church?
Since she is our life, we seek her with all our heart and can be satisfied with no other.
We think how can we find her? What does God tell us through the words of Jesus that can lead us to her? He says, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Why would He say that?
A child is dependent on his mother and father, is curious and wants to learn. A child does not rise up and say he knows everything, he speaks of the family and knows everything he has comes from his family.
He does not seek to subvert the relationship of his mother and father, fracture the family and start a new one. A child growing up and taking a wife extends the family and the love of it grows. He does not discard the old for the sake of the new or think he is smarter than those that came before, but looks to build on the foundation laid before him
Sometimes a child becomes angry and runs away. He packs up his bag and leaves the home. His parents let him go, because they know he will not get very far. A child goes to the end of the block and gets lonely and tired and hungry and comes home, as there is no love in the world as a mother for her child
To find the Church, as children we look back to see where we have come from. Who was the Church at the beginning? On that final Sabbath before the Resurrection, where was the Church on the Earth? Was it the Apostles? No, Peter denied Him, Judas betrayed Him, and the others scattered. No one understood the prophesy of the Resurrection except one. The women thought Jesus was dead and were going to anoint His body. We are not told that John knew Jesus would rise, but when he ran to the tomb, he stopped and let Peter enter first. Scripture says that when the women came to the Apostles, we are told they were not believed.
So where do we find the Church on that last Sabbath? Was it there, or had faith perished from the Earth? There was one, to whom God revealed Himself more intimately than any other. Do you see her? God Himself was conceived in her. God suckled at her breast as a child. He grew subject to her and would withhold nothing from her. Do you think she would not know that He would rise again and hold that faith in her heart? Should we discard her, the original member of the Church? Should we listen to those that tell us to do so? Why?
What did Jesus say from the cross? Behold thy mother. What is Mary’s only instruction? Do whatever He tells you. Who is Mary’s enemy and would want to see her crushed? Scripture says it’s the serpent. I will put enmity between thee and the woman.
Jesus never says look at me and forget about your mother. God is not a god of divorce and the Church is not a single parent household.
Mary is not made in our image by us, and we don’t even worship her. We as little children ask her to pray for us. We do not discard her as a used wrapper or empty container, but give her proper honor as the mother of God. Jesus said behold thy mother, and that is what we do.
Mary was not made up as idols are. We do not bow to the work of men. She was made by God and is how He chose to come into the world. She gave Christ His flesh as He grew in her. Scripture says that any spirit that does not acknowledge that Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.
Why should we be accused of idolatry by honoring the work of God’s hands not ours?
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Gary K
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Yes, we are one body, but only when we all believe alike.
Acts 1: 12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day’s journey.
13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Acts 2: 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Acts 2: 1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
When everyone was of one accord the Holy Spirit was given to the apostles and their brethren. This demonstrates how close the relationships need to be within the church of God and how much we need to believe the same way before God can truly bless us all. Look at the differences between us in our beliefs. We are no where close to being of one accord in beliefs and that is what must happen before God can do what He wants to through us. Why? Because He wants us to finish the work of preaching the gospel to all the world so the end can come as it is only through the power of the Holy Spirit that people will be converted. Look at what the enemies of the apostles said about them.
Acts 17: 5 ¶ But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.
6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;
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boughtwithaprice
Legend
You are making my point. There is One Lord, One Faith, one Baptism, one forgiveness of sins, but we all like sheep have gone astray, each to his own way.
I looked for the Apostolic faith, and had a hunger and thirst for the truth of God in the Bible.
The Baltists could not answer the texts on the Eucharist. The Plymouth brethren could not answer the texts on the baptism in the Holy Spirit, the Assembly of God could not answer the argument of Calvinism vs Arminianism. The Nazarenes don’t answer on the need to mortify the deeds of the flesh. The PCA were not respecters of truth, rather respecters of persons.
The SDA do not know how to teach sexual morality. The Orthodox do not teach properly about the Trinity, Original Sin, the Virgin Mary, and have questionable teachings on contraception. They bring down the concepts to the level of human reason and do not completely teach the divine mystery.
The only Church that I have found that teaches the whole Gospel is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It was when I realized that I do not have to build a theology from my reading of the Bible and convince others to think like me, that I found rest in Christ and the peace that passes understanding.
The theology has already been built. the truth is proclaimed. We just have to study and submit to it. I don’t say that all Catholics even understand their faith. It is a Church that is full of tares amongst the wheat. It is a very challenging environment, but it is all we’ve got. As Peter said to Our Lord, where else shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
The Church is the body of Christ, and also the Bride of Christ. The imagery is there through the whole Bible. When the Lord had let my vain intellectual pursuits of theology run their course and I studied the Catechism and completely submitted to Church authority, I denied myself, took up my cross and returned as a little child. It was as if I heard the Holy Spirit whisper, Behold thy mother.
Yes, I agree that we need to stop building our own theologies and come home to the Apostolic faith.
Peace be with you, you have my prayers
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Gary K
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Thanks. I obviously disagree.
I have one question for you. Is your statement on SDAs and morality about abortion? I agree with you on that. However a lot of SDAs would agree with both of us. Probably the vast majority world wide. The North American Division leadership has been corrupt for quite a while on that and a few other issues, but just because they are doesn't mean Adventists as a whole follow them blindly wherever they lead. You will find a wide diversity of opinion within the denomination on a number of issues as historically we are a highly educated, very individualistic thinking people.
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boughtwithaprice
Legend
I understand your disagreement, as I once held your position, and I know your call to bravely stand for what you believe is the truth in the face of corruption around you.
The SDA position on sexuality, which I have read, goes deeper than its tolerance for abortion. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of Our Lord’s teaching on sexuality as to render it meaningless.
Ironically, this is the same charge that Jesus makes against the Pharisees, when they made the command to honor their mother and father meaningless.
Our Lord said that if anyone looks on a woman with lust, he has committed adultery in his heart.
For 1900 years, Christians were taught that contraception was sinful. That all changed in 1930, when the Anglicans taught that it may be acceptable in marriage.
That ruling, effectively separated the act of procreation from sexual intercourse. What was the result?
The word of God tells you what happens, when the natural use of the woman is left. God abandons them to all of their lusts, and that is what we see over the last 94 years since the ruling was made in the Anglican group in 1930.
It used to be that contraception was for prostitutes and degenerates, but the arrival of “the pill” in the 1960s coupled with the reversal of Christian teaching by the anglicans brought us the sexual revolution. All of the Protestant denominations followed the Anglican lead and contraception became mainstream.
It has taken decades, but God’s word has shown to be true. Leave the natural use of the woman, and He abandons those to all the lusts of their heart. The first consequence was divorce, which over road God’s teaching on the permanence of marriage. People felt justified in leaving their spouse and finding another partner that “met their needs”. Then came widespread premarital sex in the “free love” movement, then homosexuality, and the other fetishes including inappropriate behavior with animals and pedophilia, along with inappropriate content and robot sex, and men are being seduced by AI girlfriends. This has all destroyed the family and blurred the lines so much that we actually have governments that tell us we are not allowed to know what a man or a woman is anymore.
You may argue that it is Satan’s doing. That is what happens in the world, not the church. That is true to an extent, but remember when I told you that the Church was the conscience of the world? When Christians no longer stand for truth, the world stops listening.
The SDA used to preach sexual restraint. Ellen White, I believe was very vocal against masturbation, so much so that is was believed to be related to diet. An SDA named Kellogg started making breakfast cereal so that men could eat less meat and thereby be less tempted to masturbation. The SDA are still geared toward vegetarianism. My wife tries to get me to eat Wham instead of ham and all that morning star junk and impossible burgers.
But the reasoning is gone. Now it is purported to be more healthy and they try to show that SDA have a longer life span due to diet. Masturbation is not as forcefully condemned as it once was. Contraception is tolerated in the name of “stewardship” and technology. It is the modernist mind set that we know better than those that came before and our ways have evolved. Did they really though? Does the SDA even realize what is happening or do they make excuses for divorce, contraception and abortion?
God does forgive and accepts anyone that repents and calls on His name. Anyone. The key is repentance, but how can they repent if they are not taught the evil of their actions? Read the teaching on sexuality from the SDA. If I really followed that, I would think yeah maybe masturbation is bad but God knows I can’t help myself. I know God said marriage is permanent but you don’t known how bad my wife or husband was. God will understand if I get divorced. Oh know my daughter is in a tough spot and can’t handle a child, she is different, God will understand this time if she aborts. Then these behaviors become accepted, the word of God is rendered moot, and the salt has lost its savor.
Even if you wake up and realize what is happening and want to fight the corruption, people will not listen to you and will try to convince you that you are too extreme. You will become as a man in a river trying to wave it with a stick. You need to realize, as the Supreme Court did in planned parenthood vs Casey, that contraception necessitates abortion, because all babies conceived while using contraception are unwanted by the nature of the act of contraception. Saying that you are prolife and abortion is wrong is only virtue signaling unless you go to the root and take a stand against contraception. Women are not to be treated as sexual objects to be used by men. They are our mother, sisters, daughters, wives and the mother of our children.
Men would tell me that Jesus is just to hard on us in His teaching. It is impossible for me to stop thinking about sex. How am I supposed to look at a woman? I tell them, next time you look at her, ask yourself if you want to have a baby with her. A baby? No, I just want to have fun, I don’t want kids. Well then why are you thinking about sex with her? Sexual intercourse is meant to produce children. If you can convince yourself of that, then your thoughts of sexual lust can be controlled. It is when you think sex is only for fun that you begin to want more and more and the more you pursue pleasure for its own sake, the worse your lust becomes. Christ calls us to deny ourselves and take up our cross, not indulge ourselves and leave Jesus to take the full punishment of the cross while we have fun.
A man is only right before God when he has his sexual impulses under control and follows Jesus’ commands. You can only get married once and you can’t use contraception. Anything else is adultery and the word of God shows us that adulterers will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Does the SDA teach that? I have not seen it in their statements of belief and I see the opposite.
That makes them invalid teachers to me, because if I follow what they say, I will not be following what Our Lord taught.
I am not for Catholics as a denomination and say that they are better than SDA. As a people, I know they are not and most need evangelizing as much as the pagan that has never heard of Christ, but the teaching of the word of God is contained in the catechism of the Catholic Church. Go ahead and read what it says about sexuality and marriage, then read the SDA, then read the Bible, then tell me which one follows Christ’s teachings
I pray for you because I see a lot of myself in you. I am not some perfect holy soul either. I have followed the contraceptive line and have fallen into the sin where it leads, but God had mercy on me when I cried out for the grace for repentance.
I can’t describe it to you except to say that when my eyes where on Jesus, and my heart was open to obey all that He has commanded and I submitted as a little child, my desire for sin was gone. His grace flows through the sacraments just as He says. The gates of hell do not prevail against His Church. She is His bride and He loves her and gives Himself for her.
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Gary K
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I appreciate your honesty as well.
Here is a link to the 28 fundamental beliefs of the Adventist denomination. I got married at 28 to a woman who had 2 kids. My parents always played obvious favorites and were abusive to me. After I got married my wife had her tubes tied as I was afraid I couldn't believe I would be fair with after all I had been through. So we used contraceptives too. I've never felt guilty about it but looking back I wish we had not done it but I'm 70 now and realize I could have been. It's one of my regrets. I also look at the issue differently than a Catholic would. I wouldn't want to bring a child into this world now. It's so corrupt that bringing a child into it seems like an insult to the poor kid as I believe we are living in the end times. Who thinks it's a good thing to be a kid in this world of transgenderism, homosexuality, and rampant crime in which the government refuses to enforce the law?
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boughtwithaprice
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I understand regrets. I feel as though I squandered my life because I did not listen to God. I felt that I knew better. Oh how wrong I was.
I did not understand the concept of marriage from God’s perspective, so I believe that He allowed me to do everything wrong to show me my error. As a teenager, I had premarital sex thinking that I could become closer to my girlfriend, but it drove us apart and I was heart broken.
My first wife never wanted children, but we thought that we were in love, but sex itself is not a basis for love so we divorced after 5 years. I got married again at 28, but had sex and lived together prior to marriage and used contraceptives for the first four years of our marriage. It had us married on paper, but we did not have a bond of mutual self giving, so we simply coexisted for 20 years. Married at 28, divorce finalized when I was 49. I had two children which my wife had alienated from me both within and after the marriage. My third wife and I had been together over 12 years and I am now 60.
God has shown me two things, one is His incredible mercy, as I should have been condemned long ago for my sin and have no right to even think of considering myself Christian .
The other is that He has shown me why I have failed, how sin clouded my thinking and caused misery both in myself and those around me.
My wife was raised seventh day Adventist and was baptized but is non-practicing. We have a daughter who is now eight years old that was born from donor eggs and IVF. Yes I know that is against Catholic teaching
She is the sweetest girl. My wife and I have had conflicts, and you can imagine that she is not happy that I am Catholic. We have both been married twice before, but she had no children due to infertility. She is not Catholic and I had to plead with her to go through the annulment process, so that I could be restored to the Church. She agreed and allowed me to have my daughter baptized in the Catholic Church, but I am practicing Catholic on my own and my wife and daughter abstain. My previous marriages were annulled, and my seventh Day Adventist wife had her two previous marriages annulled in the Catholic Church. She did not want to renew our vows in the Catholic Church, but my Bishop gave me what is called a Radical Sanation, which means healing in the root. My marriage is now effectively sealed, and I cannot get an annulment even by the Pope. If my wife leaves me, I can never have another wife unless my current wife would die. She had left me for a short time, due to my Catholic faith but sees that I really love her so she came home. She will attend Mass with me on Christmas but the rest of the year her and my daughter stay home.
It was when I had all of our marriages annulled and I submitted to the authority of the Church, that my sin was taken away and I saw clearly what I had done. I have regrets, but I do not despair. All I have, I place in God’s hands. I now know that His commands alone are right, and I whole heartedly submit.
What I have learned is that we spend too much time trying to avoid suffering. As Christians, we are called to take up our cross and deny ourselves.
Look at His commands, love your enemies and do good to those that persecute you. Turn the other cheek, walk two miles instead of one, give your hat and coat with the shirt off your back.
Why does he say this? Look at what He has done for us. Every mockery, every slap across the face, every drop of spittle, every blow of the whip, every nail, and hours of agony on the cross was unjust. Our Lord did nothing wrong and spoke no falsehood, yet received the death penalty.
Atheists love to ask, if there is a God, then why is there so much suffering in the world? Because suffering willingly, with patience, gives us the chance to imitate God. Our Lord suffered and died for us, do we just watch it happen and live an easy life? Does that honor God, or obey His commands?
Consider the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Our Lord does not say that the rich man was wicked, yet His life had no suffering, and he wound up in flames. Lazarus suffered continuously and he wound up in the bosom of Abraham. Who would you rather be?
Now is the best time to have children to honor God. I appreciate your thoughts and it sounds good to avoid suffering, but Paul tells us that our life is hard, and the only reason we do it, is for Our Lord, as he says, if Christ be not raised, we are among men most miserable. Who wants misery? No one, but a Christian gladly endures it, keeping our eye on the prize.
I pray the stations of the Cross to focus my mind on the suffering of Our Lord and to thank Him for it. I pray the Rosary, not because repetitive prayer gets God to hear me, but to discipline my mind and body to focus on the mysteries of our redemption
God does love you, but avoiding suffering shows that our thinking is off. Paul says be not conformed to the world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind
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Gary K
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You're more of an Adventist than you know. Did you know that the concepts of sin, forgiveness, suffering for God's sake. etc... are all taught by Ellen White? Plus she teaches righteousness by faith. It is a very precious truth. John 17 teaches it from beginning to end, It is knowing God that changes us.
Here's a quote from her book The Desire of Ages. I find this to be a fantastic promise of God for it is Biblical as demonstrated by John 17: 3.
The Lord is disappointed when His people place a low estimate
upon themselves. He desires His chosen heritage to value themselves
according to the price He has placed upon them. God wanted them,
else He would not have sent His Son on such an expensive errand
to redeem them. He has a use for them, and He is well pleased
when they make the very highest demands upon Him, that they may
glorify His name. They may expect large things if they have faith in
His promises.
But to pray in Christ’s name means much. It means that we are
to accept His character, manifest His spirit, and work His works.
The Saviour’s promise is given on condition. “If ye love Me,” He
says, “keep My commandments.” He saves men, not in sin, but from
sin; and those who love Him will show their love by obedience.
All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with
Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our
thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to
His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our
own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest
delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege
to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through
an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with
God, sin will become hateful to us.
As Christ lived the law in humanity, so we may do if we will
take hold of the Strong for strength. But we are not to place the
responsibility of our duty upon others, and wait for them to tell us
what to do. We cannot depend for counsel upon humanity. The Lord
will teach us our duty just as willingly as He will teach somebody
else. If we come to Him in faith, He will speak His mysteries to us
personally. Our hearts will often burn within us as One draws nigh
to commune with us as He did with Enoch. Those who decide to
do nothing in any line that will displease God, will know, after pre-
senting their case before Him, just what course to pursue.
The quote comes from a chapter titled Let Not your Heart be Troubled from the words of Jesus.
John 14: 1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Don't let your heart be troubled. Just don't allow it to happen. Keep your eyes upon Jesus and don't let the devil distract you from Him and you will always have the peace Jesus promised us.
John 14: 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
The promises of Jesus are extremely powerful as are all Biblical promises. Two of my favorites are Ezekiel 36: 25-27 and 1Corinthians 1: 30. To have God's wisdom is an incredible promise. And to have him cleanse us from all our idols so that we can walk in His statutes and judgments and do them is incredible.
I grew up in a Adventist, but not a Christian home. I wanted to be a singing evangelist from the time I was small. But sin got in the way, Yet God has worked miracle after miracle in my life. My guardian angel has spoken to me twice in attempts to save my life and twice literally saved it. But even then I have still been rebellious. It seems to me that there has been an intense spiritual warfare around me.
I was foolish enough to tell the devil once that I was his if he would do something for me. I was rebaptised into the SDA church in the 70s. The very day I was rebaptised I started having these headaches that were so intense that taking codeine was like peeing on forest fire. My right eye would turn blood red and stream water. The pain was so intense I would literally beat my head against the wall. The next day the right side pf my head would feel like someone had beaten my head with a baseball bat. I suffered with those for 20 years every fall and spring.
Here's a story I wrote 20+ years ago about another experience of mine.
It Came Upon A Midnight Clear
.
The moon rose on the snow covered landscape flooding my world with
bright moonlight. I finished my reading for the evening, turned the Iight off, and
leaned back against the couch thinking while I watched the scattered clouds drift
by under the full moon. The clouds made moving patches of darkness across an
otherwise brilliantly white landscape, as they slid under the moon.
My mind wandered back to a few weeks before when I had been baptized
and committed my life to Christ. I relived again that wonderful feeling I
experienced as I came up out of the watery grave of baptism into a new life. I
had never before known the peace and happiness in my life that I had
experienced since I had met Jesus and committed my life to Him. My days and
nights were spent in prayer, praise, and study of the Word of God. The
depression I had known for years seemed to have vanished into thin air.
As I lay there counting my blessings, my heart overflowed with gratitude
towards my Creator. He had rescued me from the life of self-destruction that I
had led since t graduated from high school. Because of this I could relate to the
words of David very well, when he said, "He brought me up out of an horrible pit,
out of the miry clay, set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings." Psalm
4O:2. I felt Iike nothing that I could offer Him was good enough, for my life up till
then had been one great failure.
I came out of my reverie, thanked God once again for my new life, and
looked back out the window at the magnificent view that I felt God had provided
just for me that night.
Suddenly, t was not where I had been the moment before. I was no
longer looking out the picture window of my parent's living room at Montana's
Yaak River Valley.
I was now standing in a large room with no windows. The building was a
large one of log construction, and at one end of the room was a Iarge, river-rock
fireplace with mantel and hearth. A large fire burned in the fireplace and there
was someone standing in front of the fireplace, back towards me, looking into the
fire. A large, very long table capable of seating maybe a hundred people filled
most of the room. I stood at one end of the table, facing down its length, to the
person in front of fireplace at the opposite end. On either side of the table were
people facing away from me wearing !ong, black, hooded robes, and I slowly
became aware of the sounds of chanting coming from the hooded figures.
I stood wondering where I was, but for some reason feeling no fear, even
though I had never experienced anything like this before. I looked back down to
the other end of the long table, and the person standing there slowly turned
around and walked up to his end of the table without looking up at me. I couldn't
see his face because this person too was wearing a hood, and the light coming
from the fire behind him was only light source in the room. He Iooked up when
he got to the end of the table, threw the hood back and then ! could see his face
and eyes. He locked eyes with me, raised his arm, and pointing at me began to
beckon with his index finger.
"You're mine, you're mine, you're mine," he said, still beckoning me
towards him with his index finger. Slowly I began to float down the length of that
massive table. His eyes were locked on mine and I could not tear mine away.
He seemed to be willing me on down the table, causing me to come ever closer
to him.
I had come to within a couple of inches of his face and felt I was about to
be sucked right into him, when the realization struck me who this was. This was
a one-way trip from which I was never to return. The devil had come to try take
over my mind.
Suddenly the spellwas broken as I realized all this and my hearts cry
burst out of my lips. "No!" was all I could scream, but it was enough.
lwas once again lying on the couch in my parent's home in Yaak,
Montana. The goose bumps stood out all over me and my heart was beating like
a jackhammer on steroids. The hair on my arms and the back of my neck stood
on end. I knew fear as I had never known it before, and have never known it like
that since
I rolled over on the couch and began to pray, but as I did a scene from my
past came before me with lifelike clarity. I remembered telling the devil I was his.
A long forgotten deed had come back to haunt me.
I had been willing to squander my soul for a momentary pleasure, and
thus had come to the point of telling the devil I was his. I had made a bargain
with the devil and now he had come to claim what was rightfully his.
With desperation I began to pray again. I told the Lord that I knew I had
done this. I told Him I had gotten into this through my own stupidity, and I
confessed just how wrong I had been and told God that I was in over my head. I
told Him I had no chance to win fighting with the devil, and with that I began to
claim the promises I had learned in the Bible. I claimed the promise of 2nd
Corinthians 12:9, "My grace is sufficient for thee, my strength is made perfect in
weakness." I claimed Psalm 91:11, "For He shall give his angels charge over
thee, to keep thee in all thy ways." I claimed the promise that ma,il. extremity is
God's opportunity and every other promise that I could think of. I prayed as
Jacob must have prayed at the Brook Jabbok the night he thought he was
wrestling for his life with his brother Esau.
As I prayed and claimed the promises of God I could feel the struggle in
the room. There was an actual physical struggle in that room that night for I
could feelwingtips brush against my back as I Iay face down and prayed for help.
I would feelwarm ones and cold ones, sometimes lightly brushing against me
and sometimes forcefully hitting me. I don't know how long I prayed. lt might
have been hours, or it might have been only a few minutes. Ijust do not know.
All I know is I have never been so afraid.
Finally the struggle was over, and a warmth and peace filled that living
room that I have not the words to describe. I lay there and told God how thankful
I was for His loving care and slowly drifted off to sleep. I was at peace, and my
heart was filled with gratitude.
Do I believe in angels? Oh yes, definitely yes. ls God real? Oh yes,
definitely yes.
When I am told that the Bible is just my "guide" and that I should not take it
literally, I know different. When I am told that the Bible does not apply today, I
know different. The promises of God's Word are as true today as they were the
day they were given. When He says, "Come now, and let us reason together,
though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they be red
like crimson, they shall be as woo)" believe Him. He has always kept His word
with me, and He wi!!with you too.
This has been a more than long enough post so I'll stop here. If you like I'll tell you more about my life later,
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