To tithe, or not to tithe. That is the question!

WordofHisPower said:

You can do either by faith or by law. Why're you applying law to tithe and faith to everything else?

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Well, I don't. You can get out of faith on alot of topics, but we're discussing tithe, so I'm relating things back to that topic. I find this is an area that's easy to step out of grace on, and it's very difficult to motivate people to give out of love.

Once people get ahold of messages that preach "owed-tithe", "commanded-tithe", or "law-tithe", they usually don't look any further into the matter. I used to be that person. I used to preach tithe, I used to uphold tithe; and if you would have asked me, I would have said I did it out of love for God. I remember hitting some really hard times, and calling the church for some prayer and guidance, and the first thing they asked me was, whether I tithed or not. As though, if I didn't tithe then I couldn't expect any help from the Lord; but if I was tithing, I could present my demands. It shook me!

I began to see that God already blessed me, that he commanded that blessing to me because of Jesus, and that I would receive nothing in my own name, and that my tithe entitled me to nothing- not condemnation, nor merit-. It all came by grace and I needed to reach out in faith and receive it.

Surprisingly, it didn't stop me from giving, but instead I found myself giving more. When I began to understand Christ was living in me and it was his responsibility to provide for me, financially, in my health, in my relationships with other people, jobs... that I just needed to rest in him, and see it as an accomplished fact, then giving became a byproduct. No amount of money could say 'thank you' for the peace I began to experience. The Lord would go on to lead me to giving to strangers/not homeless on the street, paying for people's groceries... giving was just who I was. No longer was I sitting there with a calculator asking if I tithe on the gros or net?

There's a difference. It's not so small, but it's subtle to a person who's under the deception that they owe God something. I will say this- It's better to serve God out of fear, than to not serve God at all. So I wouldn't turn nose up at a person paying tithes out of law. I don't believe that's God's best, but they'll either figure it out here on this earth, or get the shock of their lives when they get to Heaven.

I'm a freelance artist, and I believe in proportional, purposed giving, but I wouldn't dare call it a tithe. It goes out whether I make money or not. It goes out because I want to see people's lives touched, and changed by the power of God. It's my partnership in the kingdom. I also give to people/ministries that haven't reached me, but are reaching millions of others, and that has nothing to do with the tithe. I know I'm taking part in what they are doing, and the Lord delights in seeing his will on earth done as it is in Heaven. I've seen people break free of the tithe and give everything they own to serving God. It's such a relief, such a freedom. I'm talking entire paychecks! They are so happy the Lord's freely taken care of everything, they're finally free of the financial destruction Satan tried to put on them. I've heard of ministers returning those paychecks too and asking that they use some wisdom in giving. Of course, these are not ministers preaching "The Tithe". Nor have I ever heard of this happening at churches that preach "The Tithe".

the tither is always under scrutiny. is he willing, is he cheerful, is his heart right etc?

I say, lets ask the pastor, is he burdening, is he greedy, should he work as paul did, is his heart right?

WordofHisPower said:

There's no ordinances to uphold. There's no "shoulds". Tithing is God's idea. Do whatever you wish with His instructions.

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well..u used matt 23 to promote tithing not me, so u must promote food abstinence also, for your theology to jive.

It is so easy for one to say they are a tither since no one is willing to give a complete definition of what a tither is. Whatever one gives is a tenth of something.

I have been to many different churches and at each one, the pastor stands before the congregation and give his definition of tithing - to bring a tenth of your gross income, gifts, and inheritances - a definition you won't find in the scriptures. There is no principle, in the scriptures, of tithing from income, gifts, or inheritances. The Israelites inherited the promised land, yet they didn't tithe the land.

In order for one to say they tithe today, they have to turn to a man-made definition of tithing. And when the pastor parades the tithers with their testimonies, the emphasis is always on the blessings they got and never on how good it feels to be a giver. It's always about what one can get back in return for their tithe. VERY, VERY SELFISH. It makes tithing an investment, not giving from the heart.

GaryArnold said:

In order for one to say they tithe today, they have to turn to a man-made definition of tithing. And when the pastor parades the tithers with their testimonies, the emphasis is always on the blessings they got and never on how good it feels to be a giver. It's always about what one can get back in return for their tithe. VERY, VERY SELFISH. It makes tithing an investment, not giving from the heart.

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I found this interesting. I believe this is what some call "mixing covenants."

NT giving does promise a return, and is an investment in grace; but the tithe, was owed, and promised nothing because it came through the supernatural increase by God's mercy.

If everyone was giving the way they claimed to be giving; according to the NT, we would be looking at alot of millionaires. There are alot of people here who have given and have not seen 30, 60, or 100 fold return. Their cups are not running over. If you're seeking God for gain, you're smart. But it's as though God made his blessings to flow by faith and love. You can't counterfeit it.

There are alot of people who have the perspective that, "No, this is just how I see it. It's how I want to do things, how I want to serve the Lord." And there's a truth to that attitude and how God's system works through free will. But there aren't multiple interpretations to this topic. There's only one interpretation that going to work, and that's God's. So how do you know you're working from God's knowledge? It produces peace, it rejoices in faith, it ministers grace and mercy, and there's no condemnation in it.

Frogster said:

hi, in your analysis of the tithers on the thread, will you admit that there is never analysis of the collectors, the preachers, and where there heart is, or their motvies?

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Pinetree, we've been over this numerous times with varying incarnations of yourself. My posts concerning giving are addressed to all Christians. What I say about generous, Spirit-led giving is applicable to all Christians. There is no need to devolve into this us vs. them mentality that you heavily promote.

I'm sure you will continue to complain about the cars other pastors drive, and the money they have, and how big their house is. As we know from scripture, there is nothing new under the sun, and especially nothing new in your posts, no matter what name they might be under.

mjere said:

You're able to walk in love with the leaders and not the people, because you disagree on one point or another?

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Um, what in the world are are you talking about? I'm quite capable of walking n Love with all people, because the Love of God now lives and dwells inside of me.

mjere said:

This comes off as if anti-tithers should have to prove something to you or anyone else. As if, until we- as a whole- were to stand and prove our hearts to others, what we say, the scripture we look at, has varying interpretations?

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Jesus said you could tell a tree by the fruit it bears, and I've seen the fruit of some of these "anti-tithers", and it's not all bad. I've also seen the fruit of people who do tithe, and it wasn't 100% bad, either. Both expressed a love for the Lord, and for the things of God. Both were seeking to grow spiritually.

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This is most likely because we all see through a glass dimly. Or IOW, we all have pieces of truth. If we would all try to listen to each other instead of always trying to prove how right we are and how wrong everyone else is, perhaps we could all grow spiritually together, as a body, as God intended.

mjere said:

But whenever I have presented an opposing viewpoint to a pro-tither, I get some reactions that I wouldn't entirely correlate with love, or peace. I've seen people get nearly violent, and begin trying to discredit me, lie, debase me, humiliate me, all in the name of standing for what is holy, because it was such an important issue. I've watched people yell and scream at me, threaten me, threaten to cut me off. They've demanded me to point out scriptures! "Show me! Where! So what? You've said your piece, now let me talk!" Or take to making snide comments behind my back, and laughing in my face.

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Ironically, you've just described many of the anti-required-tithers posts in this very thread.

mjere said:

Then again, I've presented the importance of purposed, timed, reliable giving to ministries, and the importance of partnership to those who identified as "anti-tithers"; and while they continue to hold fast to their principles of giving where led, they'll share testimonies of what that looked like in their lives. They may even criticize ministries they've seen fumble, and suggest I follow their example; but the levels of our voice never raise beyond normal, and no one takes to personally attacking me. I get a sense that God would like to flow more to and through them, but they aren't motivated by results. The fruit may not be 100%, and they may not be hearing 100% from the Lord every time their checkbooks come out, but they never get to the point where they would get out of walking in love with me all for the sake of the principle.

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If you haven't already done so, I'd suggest you take some time to go read the posts in this thread. There's a fair amount of 'yelling' from both sides.

mjere said:

Scripture or no scripture, everyone should examine the fruit their principles bear. If it gets you encouraged, excited for the things of God, go for it. But if you can't abide someone disagreeing with you... if it's turned you into mean, critical, and willing to come on this board and tell everyone disagreeing to "kiss off" or prove yourself, then maybe you're not going at this the right way. God's principles... God's knowledge will always minister grace and peace to you. Not pride or comfort because you're right and everyone else is of the devil, but God's kind of perfect peace.

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On this we agree. But both sides of this debate, particularly in this thread, are all about one-upping the other side. That's probably why it's gone on for so long with all the bickering. Stand by now for some well-meaning, albeit misguided soul to talk about 'iron sharpening iron' to justify their rudeness. I've been here long enough to know what's coming next...

mjere said:

I believe all scriptures fit together and harmonize giving heed to both points. Truth be told, it's not one or the other. As Christians, we give, because it's our nature to give.

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I absolutely agree with you. We should give because it's our nature, or at least it 'should' be our nature to give. But from the responses of some people here, you'd think it's our nature to covet other people's things.

You said earlier that Jesus said that a tree is known by its fruit. That's true. And when you talk about giving and the focus, or 'fruit' if you will, is more about 'why should my pastor drive a nicer car than me', and not at all about our giving nature, the fruit is pretty rotten, IMO.

probinson said:

You said earlier that Jesus said that a tree is known by its fruit. That's true. And when you talk about giving and the focus, or 'fruit' if you will, is more about 'why should my pastor drive a nicer car than me', and not at all about our giving nature, the fruit is pretty rotten, IMO.

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And just what kind of fruit do you call a pastor living better than those he is asking money from? The Biblical tithe was partially used to feed the poor. The pastor asks the poor to give to him. Would you call that fruit pretty rotten? It goes both ways.

probinson said:

Pinetree, we've been over this numerous times with varying incarnations of yourself. My posts concerning giving are addressed to all Christians. What I say about generous, Spirit-led giving is applicable to all Christians. There is no need to devolve into this us vs. them mentality that you heavily promote.

I'm sure you will continue to complain about the cars other pastors drive, and the money they have, and how big their house is. As we know from scripture, there is nothing new under the sun, and especially nothing new in your posts, no matter what name they might be under.

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it doesn't have to be the usual mansion preacher, BMW driver. What about a local pastor, should he take from those earning less, who may have family struggles, or old people on a fixed income? Do I raise a fair point? Where is that pastors heart? How does he go home to a comfy home, at the expense of the person in debt, or struggling along, all while he says .."praise the Lord, be blessed!", on Sunday when he sees him?

WordofHisPower said:

Teaching people to stop tithes, offerings, and alms to the poor is just as wrong as forcing them to do it if they don't want to.

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Complete agreement .

We're under grace. If you don't want to tithe, give offerings, or alms you don't have to, but it doesn't change the scripture examples and instructions on tithing.

If you don't want to love your neighbor or be faithful to your spouse, you don't have to, but it doesn't change the scriptural instructions to do so.

If you wait to hear the Lord speak directly to you about everything, you wouldn't need a bible. Bible instructions are one form of hearing from the Lord.

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The "Bible" says nothing about needing a bible or anything about a bible at all - not to mention which of the four cannons is the real "bibla" . The Law is not of faith . Jesus is even quoted as saying that if you only refrain fromkilling because the "bible" ( your term ) says so , you are still guilty of murder .

Paul even quotes that if there was any set of writings that could bring righteousness , that set is the Law - the whole Law as stated - not a twisted version forced down people's throats because you want the Law but not all of it .

Reading is not hearing His voice - it is only hearing your own voice as it translates what you read and makes it fit your previously accepted doctrines .

Not to mention that your doctrine flies in the face of Paul's largest topic . Just as you do today , the Jewish christians in Paul's time took the Scriptures that they had and were telling the Gentile christians to do what the "bible" ( as you say ) says and be circumcized . No need to hear the Lord's voice - just follow the "bible" . Paul declares that is not of faith and goes into great detail why it isn't . I would not be surprised if the Jewish christians came back with the argument that those arguing the tithe do ... so , "no problem ... obey in faith and be circumcized , then . The bible still says to be circumcized " . and , more so than to tithe Levites .

2 Corinthians 9:6 (NASB)
6 Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.

GaryArnold said:

And just what kind of fruit do you call a pastor living better than those he is asking money from? The Biblical tithe was partially used to feed the poor. The pastor asks the poor to give to him. Would you call that fruit pretty rotten? It goes both ways.

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I think that's the whole problem. If you believe in tithing or giving doesn't matter, I understand people don't want to give to such a pastor. Better look for another church.
Makes me think of the church of Laodicea. You can't serve God and Mammon. Keeping everything for yourself is not good, but this isn't either.

Simply Put said:

My home church does so much for the community and missions that it has never been an issue as to where to tithe.

In addition we give offerings for a variety of ministries. Our finances have helped start more than 300 churches in India, helped missionaries is 13 countries and has blessed numbers of people in our community.

Much to the displeasure of our accountant we don't claim any deductions for personal reasons.

Prayer for finances is a weekly event and it has been an amazing blessing.

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Thank you I find this very inspiring. These kind of real examples are helpful. I like how tithers talk. It's like you're using your faith and seeing things happen. Tithers seem to be getting more accomplished. I'd like to hear more of what tithers do and believe. How do you pray for finances? If a person was starting out tithing what kind of steps would you recommend? What was it like for you when you began tithing?

I give tithes and offerings whenever the Lord blesses me. The church I attend feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, and visits the sick and those in jail. I, personally, do not do these things, but my tithes and offerings help. I think of it as sowing into God's kingdom.
Should the pastor ever misuse church funds, then he has to answer for his actions.

ouisa said:

I give tithes and offerings whenever the Lord blesses me. The church I attend feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, and visits the sick and those in jail. I, personally, do not do these things, but my tithes and offerings help. I think of it as sowing into God's kingdom.
Should the pastor ever misuse church funds, then he has to answer for his actions.

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Thank you for sharing this. This is very helpful to me. I like what you're saying. It's very inspiring to hear what tithers are doing and how their tithes are working. Your attitude is blessing me. Thank you.

WordofHisPower said:

Matthew 23:23 is a good example of keep tithing and do the other more important things as well (loving God and your neighbor).

Luke 18:12 is an example of someone doing the right thing (tithing) with the wrong motive (pride).

If you're under tithe-law or walking in tithe-pride, you'll miss what the NT is about (do good by God's power).

Abraham and Jacob faith-tithed before the law. Not all tithing is law. There's faith-tithing before, during, and after the law. It's a form of worship and gratitude.

There's only tithes, offerings, alms to the poor mentioned in the 66 books of the bible. 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 and 1 Corinthians 16 are a collection for the poor. It doesn't replace tithing.

If man's tithe-teaching contradicts scripture ignore it and keep faith-tithing. Why stop tithing if God didn't tell us to?

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Thank you for this. Your posts are inspiring. You make the bible proofs for tithing clear and understandable. I like reading your answers to the critics.

dollarsbill said:

2 Corinthians 9:6 (NASB)
6 Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.

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I like this.

WordofHisPower said:

I saw a post by someone saying the tithers haven't produced any scripture, so here you go.

Here's a list of as various tithes (10%) I found so far. The ones with * are the scriptures NT tithers base their faith tithing on.

NON-LAW
*Abraham tithes (10%) on something he won. Hebrews 7:2, Genesis 14:20

*Jacob tithes (10%) of all the Lord gives him. Genesis 28:22

*NT tithe (10%) of all that you possess. Luke 18:12

*NT Pharisee tithe 10% and Christ said to continue doing it. Matthew 23:23

*Honor the Lord with all your possession. Proverbs 3:9

*NT tithing through Christ. Hebrews 6:20 and Hebrews 7:1-28

LAW
*Lay aside a tithe of your increase for the Levite and the poor. Remove it from your house and give it. Deuteronomy 26:12-13

*Tithe (10%) is holy to the Lord. Leviticus 27:30

*The Israelites brought a tithe of everything, including produce. 2 Chronicles 31:5

1st tithe to support those doing the Lord's work. Leviticus 27:30, Numbers 8

2nd tithe to take family on yearly feast in God's presence. Deuteronomy 14:22-27

3rd tithe is the 2 year poor tithe to look after the poor. Deuteronomy 14:28-29

Tithe of the produce of the land to the Levites. Nehemiah 10:37

Tithe of the tithe to the storehouse by the Levites. Nehemiah 10:38

Malachi tithe into the storehouse. Malachi 3:10

There's no command from God or Christ to stop tithing.

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WordofHisPower said:

Read the all the scriptures carefully. It's plain to see tithes, offerings, and alms haven't been replaced by anything else. The scriptures posted are examples of various 10% (tithes).

10% is the common denominator. All the other variables change depending on what tithe you're talking about. You're trying to use the variable details to make tithing a law.

If you read with an open mind you'll see 10% is a number associated with giving to the Lord from Abraham to Jesus to Paul.

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I liked these two posts. They helped me see how 10% is the NT tithe.

GodismySalvation said:

I like this.

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Interesting, you like where it says, he who sows sparingly will reap sparingly? Ok, but that about the provision for the poor in 2 Cor 8? I guess since he can't sow, he has to remain poor? Paul said don't sow, if you don't have it.

And why does 2 Cor 8:14, say that the Corinthinas even after sowing, may be poor one day?

Lets go by the whole of the story in Corinth.

mjere said:

It's not so small, but it's subtle to a person who's under the deception that they owe God something.

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I hope you don't mind me responding.

To me, the OT system of the tithe was a wonderful system. It provided for those who served the Lord as a daily lifestyle rather than till the land and tend flocks and herds. It provided for the poor, and even strangers in the land. Even though it was under Law, it drove toward showing the nation God's heart that even the least among them was worthy of caring for by way of the basics of human necessity.

That system served a wondrous and good purpose, but giving to meet the needs of the needy first and foremost after the disappearance of the temple and its priesthood serves an even greater purpose besides its unmistakable evidence of OUR priesthood in Christ Jesus. Unlike all the other religions of the day back then, the NT Church demonstrated something to the world around them that was unmatched. Those people LIVED their love for one another by ensuring ALL needs were met among them, as opposed to primarily seeing to the needs of a communal facility, its pagan priesthood and its operations BEFORE the needs of people.

To be told that such a practice is "Christian" would have been so foreign to their thinking were they to observe what's going on today in so many circles. It would have baffled their minds to be told that the complete reversal of priorities in modern times is justified in scripture, and that doing so is akin to giving to God. That there are so many who can't see that harsh reality when it's brought to their attention, well, that's a level of deception worthy of addressing.

I will say this- It's better to serve God out of fear, than to not serve God at all. So I wouldn't turn nose up at a person paying tithes out of law. I don't believe that's God's best, but they'll either figure it out here on this earth, or get the shock of their lives when they get to Heaven.

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That's a somewhat fatalistic vantage point I'd rather avoid. That's almost like saying, "Oh well, if the unbeliever doesn't see their need for God here, they'll see it in eternity. The early Church leaders were the mighty guards against heresy, but today they are so few that the power is greatly diminished in this nation. The onslaught of heresy and vain doctrines is overflowing into the lives of believers through the institutional model that has enjoyed such broad acceptance because of its historicity.

I've seen people break free of the tithe and give everything they own to serving God. It's such a relief, such a freedom. I'm talking entire paychecks! They are so happy the Lord's freely taken care of everything, they're finally free of the financial destruction Satan tried to put on them. I've heard of ministers returning those paychecks too and asking that they use some wisdom in giving. Of course, these are not ministers preaching "The Tithe". Nor have I ever heard of this happening at churches that preach "The Tithe".

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Very good point. The letter of the Law kills.

I've visited a small hand full of institutional church organizations across the country that taught meeting needs above all else, starting with one's own family, then other believers, and THEN the needy in the local community. What one of those organizations did was set up two boxes in a private booth out in the foyer; one for what was to be used for meeting needs, the other for the facility and its operations.

Each one of those organizations had FAR greater outreach, meeting FAR needs than ANY of the pro-tithe organizations, and the boxes for the facility never left them unable to pay all the bills and upkeep for the facility.

Not so surprisingly, those ministers were routinely criticized by the pro-tithing dogs from other organizations for allowing the people to REMAIN the stewards over what they had given by way of a choice between two boxes. Perhaps they were envious of those organizations showing them up when it came to the community outreach performed so far beyond the ability of the organizations the tithing dogs supported with their primary giving. I'll leave that to the Lord for Him to hash out.

Good stuff, mjere.

BTW