To those who believe in universal salvation, how long does hell last?

[Saint Steven]

... Then the flaming fire comes in vengeance to them that know not God...

That sounds like an unpleasant surprise.
I imagine them sitting together blackened by the fury, asking each other, "What was that? -- I have no idea. -- Why did that happen? --- I have no idea."

 

[Ceallaigh]

Old favorite. Best played at full volume

 

[hedrick]

I'm not convinced that our time units make sense in eternity. But if you insist on a time: Hell as it appears in Christianity is a Jewish concept. To the extent that a specific time is given, in the Jewish tradition it's a year.

 

[prophecy_uk]

MMXX: " Be sure to give your sandals a good shaking."



Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.




Steven: "That sounds like an unpleasant surprise.
I imagine them sitting together blackened by the fury, asking each other, "What was that? -- I have no idea. -- Why did that happen? --- I have no idea.""



The end comes faster than having time to speak or see or know..


1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



Hedrick: "I'm not convinced that our time units make sense in eternity"



We can be convinced that the time that did exist for us, exists no more...


Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

 

[Ceallaigh]

MMXX: " Be sure to give your sandals a good shaking."

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Try Matthew 10:14.

 

[prophecy_uk]

MMXX "Try Matthew 10:14."


After the shaking that God does, trying Matthew 10:14 wont see man having sandals any longer..


1 Corinthians 7:31 And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.

 

[Saint Steven]

The end comes faster than having time to speak or see or know..

From that perspective it doesn't matter. Right?
That idea seems to align with agnosticism and atheism. Isn't that what they claim? Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

What do UR proponents have to say about that?

There are books written on the meaning of 'aion' and its cognates. It's a bit context-dependent, but in Matt 25:46, in an effort to catch the idiom, I go for something along the lines of "a world of hurt". It's more a state of being, consistent with Jesus' warnings on Gehenna - you'd better reconcile now, leave gift at altar, settle on the road, or God will have to do it the hard way later, lots of wailing and gnashing, uttermost farthings spent, but ultimately, saved though as through fire.

So 'hell' is as long as it takes a sinner in their own mind, heart and spirit to overcome the love of their sins in the purifying fire of God's love. We'll all need to be salted with the divine fire, we love it. And who can stand against? Even the devil must be subdued eventually, throw himself at the feet of Christ in true repentance. The idea of eternity in hell is actually blasphemous as it suggests (in Calvinist terms) that a totally depraved creature can hold out indefinitely against irresistible Grace.

The gospel might be heard as, 'Too bad M. Sinner, you're getting saved at some point, it's inevitable, so why not start today?'

 

[prophecy_uk]

Starting is by God creating the Heavens and the earth, which will soon be dissolved, and the wicked are finished before they come out of the womb.

Faith is when God created all, and is when God tolerated all, ( did not destroy man apart from the flood to show how man is only evil from his youth up /guaranteed) and Jesus lays His life down by recovering the chosen/elect from the hell, that is sharing in this evil world with the tares and the devil who planted them, and going to the same place as them afterwards, unless Jesus had gone there to deliver man from the devils kingdom.


Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[Saint Steven]

Starting is by God creating the Heavens and the earth, which will soon be dissolved, and the wicked are finished before they come out of the womb.

Faith is when God created all, and is when God tolerated all, ( did not destroy man apart from the flood to show how man is only evil from his youth up /guaranteed) and Jesus lays His life down by recovering the chosen/elect from the hell, that is sharing in this evil world with the tares and the devil who planted them, and going to the same place as them afterwards, unless Jesus had gone there to deliver man from the devils kingdom.

Are you not speaking of God's creation?
Yet you say the wicked come that way out of the womb.
Who chose the way they came out of the womb?

You consent that God created all, but add that he "tolerated all"?
I thought he looked at his creation in Genesis and said it was good.

Then you say, "man is only evil from his youth up /guaranteed".
What happened to wicked from the womb?

It sounds as if you are saying God hates everything he created.
Why would he send his Son to pay for that?
Or, wasn't God capable of a better plan than to create a whole
universe so horrible he only wants to destroy it?

It seems slanderous to me to paint a picture of God as being
incompetent and hateful. A cosmic tyrant having temper tantrums.
One who creates a flawed universe only to destroy it in anger.
Like an angry volcano god seeking appeasement.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Job, prodded by God to answer like a man and Who asked where Job was when He did this, and this, and this, answered that it was all beyond him. In the same way, I answer that it is beyond us, but Godfire, whether we see it as "hell" or the Lake of Fire, will do its work until its work is done. After that, I suppose eternity really settles in...

 

[Saint Steven]

... After that, I suppose eternity really settles in...

It seems that the common view is that eternity is a singular thing, going on forever with no beginning or end or mileposts of any sort. I see it as being marked by specific ages of time. Which gives it meaning and context. Identifying what happened in a certain age. As it has already been happening.

1. 1 Corinthians 10:11
   These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.
   
   
2. Ephesians 1:21
   far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Steven: "It seems slanderous to me to paint a picture of God as being
incompetent and hateful. A cosmic tyrant having temper tantrums.
One who creates a flawed universe only to destroy it in anger.
Like an angry volcano god seeking appeasement."


Steven: " I see it as being marked by specific ages of time. Which gives it meaning and context."




God paints the picture for us all, He did flood the entire world in demonstration of what He thought of man being evil from his youth up, and the wicked are estranged from the womb, speaking lies, it then shows when the beginning is, as it is told, it is ALWAYS. The flood happened as example to hose who after be ungodly..



If we use verses to show how we see things, "by specific ages of time" why would we argue against ourselves when other scriptures are all that we are not accepting as how we see everything by?


Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;


Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[hedrick]

God paints the picture for us all, He did flood the entire world in demonstration of what He thought of man being evil from his youth up, and the wicked are estranged from the womb, speaking lies, it then shows when the beginning is, as it is told, it is ALWAYS. The flood happened as example to hose who after be ungodly..

Sort of. The text says he was sorry he made man. (Gen 6:6) The implication is that he wanted to wipe out his mistake and start again, with the one acceptable person he found.

"I will blot out from the earth the human beings I have created—people together with animals and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

The OT sometimes portrays God as being closer to human than Christians (including me) are comfortable with. Fortunately, it didn't actually happen.

 

[hedrick]

To me, universalism is sort of the antithesis of that story. It says that God didn't make a mistake in creation, and will eventually redeem everything and everyone that he created and found good.

I think it makes a difference in one's attitude towards people. In the conventional view 90% of the people around you are garbage, because God is going to destroy them in the cosmic garbage pit (whatever "destroy" means for you). In universalism, God intends to redeem everyone around us, no matter how badly they have failed. It affects not only our attitude but public policy.

You can read Biblical texts in various ways. I've argued that annihilation is actually a reasonable reading of most of the NT texts about judgement. What I think really makes the difference is what you think of God and his attitude towards people. At least for me that comes from Jesus. He certainly warned that we would all be accountable. But I think it's hard to believe that he thought most of us are garbage.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Hedrick: "The implication is that he wanted to wipe out his mistake and start again, with the one acceptable person he found."


All is by grace, God did not find one person acceptable, mans creation and survival is not based on any person, unless you are talking about the person of Christ..


Romans 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Hedrick: "It says that God didn't make a mistake in creation, and will eventually redeem everything and everyone that he created and found good."





Do you think a discussion by missing the most simple parts, is any discussion at all?

God did find everything very good, but one thing leavened it all, God created a new thing, do you not want to know it, if you do, ask me while I m here and I will tell everyone about it.

That was why the old world was condemned, never to return.


1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:



God condemned the OLD WORLD, revealing that righteousness comes by faith ( Noah was a preacher of righteousness) and the new creation is Christ being born of a woman, and we being that new man created in the image of Christ.

The old world passed away, and it is that old serpent that deluded Adam and Eve, that was being destroyed even from then, and the curse was on all the earth. Also it is proven there is none good, no not one, but one is, and that is God...




Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Now, even if all around you were garbage, we know what Jesus taught us, God sends His rain on the just and unjust, so we do likewise to be kind and merciful to all, as the Lord is.


If you believed all around you are good, you would not be aware that the devil has this worlds filled with tares, and deception, and would not be able to tell the difference between right and wrong, and not even be suitable to be a parent ourselves, to bring up children in the admonition of the world and His love, which I just spoke about.


1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Ephesians 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

 

[wendykvw]

Those who believe in universal salvation say that hell is not eternal, but rather age-long. But how long is age-long? The argument is that the Greek word aionios often translated as eternal, should be translated as age-long or age-during. Such as in Matthew 25:46.

But what I'm seeing in Matthew 25:46 is:

αἰώνιον (aiōnion) 166: agelong, eternal - from aión.
Definition: agelong, eternal
Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.

So going by that, while aionios may not mean eternal, it seems to be so close to eternal, it might as well be.

What do UR proponents have to say about that?

Only God knows. Obviously Hitler needs more purifiying fire than an average citizen. Or you can take Matthew 5:26 and do the math.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm not convinced that our time units make sense in eternity. But if you insist on a time: Hell as it appears in Christianity is a Jewish concept. To the extent that a specific time is given, in the Jewish tradition it's a year.

Partially correct.
¢¢Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
…..According to these three sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
Partially correct.
¢¢Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclop
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
This refutes the false narrative that when Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was supposedly referring to nonexistent continually burning fires in the valley of GeHinnom where trash and bodies were supposedly disposed of.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
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[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.…..During the time of the Monarchy,
Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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[3]pre-Christianity Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​