• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

TO THOSE WHO ARE INVESTIGATING "MORMONISM"

Status
Not open for further replies.

Svt4Him

Legend
Site Supporter
Oct 23, 2003
16,711
1,132
54
Visit site
✟98,618.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Conservatives
explorerofmind said:
I don't know, I like the way that the Bible speeks, and if God were to give someone in my religion the purpose of translating another book like it, I'd just assume that they write it in the way that I'm used to reading scriptures.
Some people still talk like that in homish comunitys. A theary could be that God wanted it written for the people who were currently used to bible language. You know, who already had a taste for scripture.

Then again, if what that religion believes is true, then why assume that God would give him the exzact words? I think they only claimed that god gave him the ability to translate. Translaters now of days translate things into whatever comes to thier minds that gets thier message across. Prophets in the Bible had thier own free will most of the time. Mabe it was the translater's Idea to write it in that form, but a divine purpose to write it?
Sorry, just started reading this. If you are talking about translating the BofM, this is false. It was done through a seeing stone and hat, and was only allowed to progress when the word was right.
 
Upvote 0

fatboys

Senior Veteran
Nov 18, 2003
9,231
280
72
✟68,575.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Svt4Him said:
Sorry, just started reading this. If you are talking about translating the BofM, this is false. It was done through a seeing stone and hat, and was only allowed to progress when the word was right.

SVT, since none of the people who state that Joseph Smith translated through the seer stone ever saw how it was done, then they are just speculating as to how it took place. None of they ever witnessed the process. And Joseph Smith never told them this is how it took place. Joseph Smith said very little about the process, and there were only two people who were allowed to even try and translate. Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Both of who said that the process included the Urim and Thummin which was first called the interpreters. The process of the translation took place through the understanding of the language the translater had. Words which were common knowledge to Joseph Smith in the form of a sacred language was the Bible. To Joseph Smith this was form he was most familar with and he considered the Bible to be a sacred text. Therefore the Book of Mormon was translated after the manner and type of language the Bible was in. Old English. The process was not given to Joseph Smith word for word without any effort on his part. It worked through his own mind and understanding of his own language. When he looked through the Urim and Thummin, it did not translate until the person had enough faith and spirit to see the translation. It worked through his mind, and then the words would become visible on the interpretors. When a word came up, Joseph Smith would translate to words that he understood that best described what he was seeing working through Joseph Smith's own understanding. Although the Book of Mormon is the most correct book, that does not make it a perfect book. When Moroni declared that the book was correct, it was meant to say that this is as close to correct as it is going to be with who God had to work with. Man.

I challenge you who claim to know how this translating process took place to give me a reference from the translator that says that he used anything else but what he claimed to have used.
 
Upvote 0

gort

pedantric
Sep 18, 2003
10,451
194
70
Visit site
✟34,392.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
FB quote:

SVT, since none of the people who state that Joseph Smith translated through the seer stone ever saw how it was done, then they are just speculating as to how it took place. None of they ever witnessed the process. And Joseph Smith never told them this is how it took place. Joseph Smith said very little about the process, and there were only two people who were allowed to even try and translate.
Hello,

I have seen this same thing that Svt4him has quoted. It has come from documentation for LDS sources. It was by putting a peep stone in a hat and such. There are more than 2 people that witnessed. As you will ask me for docs, I will ask you the same.

http://www.i4m.com/think/southpark/mormon_translation.htm

http://www.irr.org/mit/divination.html


<><
 
Upvote 0

Svt4Him

Legend
Site Supporter
Oct 23, 2003
16,711
1,132
54
Visit site
✟98,618.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Don't challenge me, just ask.

In his Comprehensive History of the Church (CHC), LDS historian and Seventy Brigham H. Roberts quotes Martin Harris, one of the three witnesses whose name is found in every edition of the Book of Mormon since its original edition. Harris said that the seer stone Smith possessed was a "chocolate-colored, somewhat egg-shaped stone which the Prophet found while digging a well in company with his brother Hyrum." Harris went on to say it was by using this stone that "Joseph was able to translate the characters engraven on the plates" (CHC 1:129).

Martin Harris was one of the scribes Joseph Smith used to record the writing on the plates. This enabled him to give a first-hand account of how Smith performed this translation. Harris noted, "By aid of the Seer Stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin, and when finished he would say 'written;' and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another appear in its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used" (CHC 1:29). Harris' description concurs with that of David Whitmer, another one of the three witnesses whose testimony appears at the front of the Book of Mormon. Whitmer details exactly how the stone produced the English interpretation. On page 12 of his book An Address to All Believers in Christ, Whitmer wrote, "I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."

In volume two of "A New Witness for Christ in America," LDS writerFrancis Kirkham notes that Joseph Smith's brother Williamalso confirmed the use of the hat and seer stone. His account is also similar to the accounts given by Harris and Whitmer although he refers to the seer stone as the "Urim and Thummim." He stated, "The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God" (2:417). William's account leads us to wonder why Smith went through the bother of digging up the alleged plates if he didn't even have to look at them during the "translation."

Martin Harris, David Whitmer, and William Smith all agree that Joseph Smith used a seer stone and a hat in the translation process.
 
Upvote 0

fatboys

Senior Veteran
Nov 18, 2003
9,231
280
72
✟68,575.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Svt4Him said:
Feel free to ignore this...:D

FB: Since the translation was done in private, and no one had access to this process, they were only speculating as to how it was done. Putting a peep stone into a hat was a common tactic used during this time. Since none of them had ever seen the Urim and Thummin, and since none of the ever seen the process, since they were always blocked from the process, their speculation does not hold water. As I said there were only two who actually witnessed the process, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdrey who both said that the Urim and Thummin was the instrument used in this process. Their statements were also taken many years after the fact. So there can be things influencing what they perceived as fact. It was not. No proof from anyone who actually seen the process that a hat was used.
 
Upvote 0

fatboys

Senior Veteran
Nov 18, 2003
9,231
280
72
✟68,575.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
daneel said:
http://www.irr.org/mit/divination.html

Records seem to indicate that JS wife was present as witness also. Of a hat and peepstone.

<><


FB: There are three accounts other than those of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdrey's. Martin Harris who was the first scribe for Joseph Smith and the reason that 116 pages of what he did scribe was lost. Emma Smith who did some scribing, and David Whitmer, where the translation was finished but had nothing to do with the process or did not scribe at all. As I pointed out before, there are only two who witnessed the process. Martin Harris, Emma Smith and Martin Harris never witnessed the process. Always blocked from their view was the process. They have no idea how it took place and since it was common knowledge of how peep stones were used during this time, I would be inclined to believe that their speculations were influenced by what was commonly done. Hiram Page believed that he had discovered a seer stone and used it as mentioned to receive revelations.

So even though there may be an account of someone who was involved at the time the translation took place, only two know how it took place.
 
Upvote 0

B®ent

Contender for the Faith
May 15, 2005
3,581
200
Mill Creek, WA.
✟4,932.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
If you are homosexual, you will be pressured to abandon this "evil" aspect of your nature. If you do not, you will probably not be fully accepted by other church members. If you do not remain celibate, you may be excommunicated.

What's your point? I think we all agree those who refuse to repent should be shut out from the Body. There are numerous verses to support this.
 
Upvote 0

skylark1

In awesome wonder
Nov 20, 2003
12,545
251
Visit site
✟14,186.00
Faith
Christian
GodsWordisTrue said:
Why don't you tell us who you are quoting, Johannes? Don't make us go through the whole thread to find it. :help:
Wow, this thread is old!

It was a quote from Snowy's post (post #3), which she credited to Richard Packham. The blue font helped. :)

It was taken form this site, which states that it was revised in May 2005. But I'm not going to dig through looking for what was revised!
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
36,193
6,777
Midwest
✟129,870.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Snowy said:
Joseph Smith died not as a martyr, but in a gun battle in which he fired a number of shots. He was in jail at the time, under arrest for having ordered the destruction of a Nauvoo newspaper which dared to print an exposure (which was true) of his secret sexual liaisons. At that time he had announced his candidacy for the presidency of the United States, set up a secret government, and secretly had himself crowned "King of the Kingdom of God.- Richard Packham

Nauvoo Expositor:

http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/exposit1.htm

http://utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech17.htm#Destruction of Expositor

For a detailed discussion of Smith's political ambitions, his title "king" and his secret government, see the book by D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: [Volume 1] The Origins of Power, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1994. (Quinn was excommunicated from the Mormon church for his historical researches, but remains a believer)
http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm#MARTYR
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.