TO THOSE WHO ARE INVESTIGATING "MORMONISM"

[twhite982]

Hi there!



One of the difficulties with paying tithe in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that if their tithe is not paid, then they are denied the same priviledges extended to other members who have paid a full tithe.

You'll have to be a little more specific, when you state that those members who fail to pay tithing are denied certain priveledges. Which ones?

Obviously, there are many people in the LDS who are "bothered by" the lack of income.


~malaka~

I'm always bothered by my lack of income, but I still make my best effort to pay my tithing each month.

Those bothered by lack of income isn't only reserved to the LDS.

TW

 

[twhite982]

And not having access to financial information is not a sign of a honest or healthy organization.

This is just your opinion.
It may bother you, but I'm cool with it.

Would I be giving cheerfully to Christ's church if I wanted to know where every dime went?

The means is as important as the ends!

TW

 

[Wrigley]

This is just your opinion.
It may bother you, but I'm cool with it.

Would I be giving cheerfully to Christ's church if I wanted to know where every dime went?

I believe you could.

The means is as important as the ends!

TW

Explain. I have a comment, but I'll withhold it until, and if, you explain this comment.

 

[twhite982]

I believe you could.


Explain. I have a comment, but I'll withhold it until, and if, you explain this comment.

My comment was :

The means is as important as the ends!

The ends of my tithing is to help support the church in temperal matters. The means of tithing is that I can be happlily, willingly, and eargerly, obdient to obey the Lord's command of giving back 10% of what He gives to me.

The means of tithing helps me in many ways. I used to be extremely attached to the almighty buck and material things in general. Now that "need" is not nearly as strong as before and I attribute this in a large measure to tithing. Not just the paying of money, but the principle behind it.

Hope that helps.

TW

 

[Wrigley]

My comment was :
The ends of my tithing is to help support the church in temperal matters. The means of tithing is that I can be happlily, willingly, and eargerly, obdient to obey the Lord's command of giving back 10% of what He gives to me.

The means of tithing helps me in many ways. I used to be extremely attached to the almighty buck and material things in general. Now that "need" is not nearly as strong as before and I attribute this in a large measure to tithing. Not just the paying of money, but the principle behind it.

Hope that helps.

TW

What all is the tithe required for? What extras do you get for your tithe?

 

[Doc T]

For example:

Quoted from your referenced site:

Further support for the name "Aha" comes from a recent discovery reported in Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, Vol. 8, No. 2, 1999, p. 83. The May/June 1999 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review (pp. 42-43) has an article by P. Kyle McCarter, Jr. of Johns Hopkins University that reports the discovery of three bronze arrowheads from the eleventh century B.C. bearing Hebrew inscriptions, one of which was inscribed with a steel instrument (yes, critics, steel as in use there long before Laban got his steel sword!), according to Dr. R. Thomas Chase of the Freer Gallery of Art, a division of the Smithsonian Institution and an authority on ancient bronze artifacts. He discovered that "the inscription had been incised with a steel [emphasized in the original] engraving tool." The name "Aha" that occurs in one of the inscriptions, which McCarter translates as "The arrowhead of 'Aha' son of 'Ashtart.'" This appears to be the same as the name mentioned in the Book of Mormon in Alma 16:5, where we read of two sons of Zoram, chief captain of the Nephite army, whose names were Lehi and Aha. Thus we have evidence authenticating another ancient Hebrew name found in the Book of Mormon but not the Bible.


I found it interesting in searching the names of Aha and Ashtart which were cited and to find that they are the names of gods/goddesses, and not Hebrew names as was cited in the LDS reference materials.Therefore, note that Mr. Linsay identifies the names from the book of mormon as Hebrew, when in fact, they are not.

P. Kyle McCarter, the author of the BAR article, "Over the Transom: Thre More Arrowheads", May/June 1999, simply cites the inscription as "archaic text" (Page 42, column 2, first paragraph). Jeff Linsay[sic] has taken the liberty of translating "archaic text" to be "Hebrew". Furthermore, the translation of text is not attributed to P. Kyle McCarter, but to a previous publication by Robrt Deutsch and Michael Heltzer, Forty New Ancient West Semitic Inscriptions (Tel Aviv: Archaeological Center, 1994)

I would identify that while West Semitic is Israel, Jordan, and Egypt, from the book's descriptive title, the names of "Aha" and "Ashtart" are more likely to be the names of Egyptian gods/goddesses.

AHA(granmother): River spirit. The guardian of apotheosis of rivers

Ashtart: Canaanite version of Ishtar; fertility goddess, (Egyptian goddess)

Doc: It would appear you missed the whole point of Mr. Lindsays note. It was not that "Aha" or "Astart" were Hebrew names, but that they were inscribed with a "steel instrument". As the title of his note indicated "Update: Bronze Arrowheads Inscribed with Steel"

Now as for your other issue, whether "Aha" or "Astart" are Hebrew names or not. I am not an expert on Hebrew so I have email the author on the original article in Journal of Book of Mormon Studies and as soon as I here back from him, I will let you know.

Do you need more examples of Mr. Linsay's[sic] work?

Doc: Yes, but please be more accurate in summarizing and understanding Mr. Lindsay's arguments.



~

 

[twhite982]

What all is the tithe required for?

As relating to the LDS church?

As in OT times, the tithe was used to support the "church" as it is today. More than that though it is an act of obedience and a willing heart.

What extras do you get for your tithe?

I don't do it for the "extras", but nonetheless the Lord has promised blessings.
Mal 3:8-12 & Prov 3:8-10. Also in LDS scriptures there are promised blessings as well.

TW

 

[Serapha]

Doc: It would appear you missed the whole point of Mr. Lindsays note. It was not that "Aha" or "Astart" were Hebrew names, but that they were inscribed with a "steel instrument". As the title of his note indicated "Update: Bronze Arrowheads Inscribed with Steel"

Now as for your other issue, whether "Aha" or "Astart" are Hebrew names or not. I am not an expert on Hebrew so I have email the author on the original article in Journal of Book of Mormon Studies and as soon as I here back from him, I will let you know.



Doc: Yes, but please be more accurate in summarizing and understanding Mr. Lindsay's arguments.



~

Hi there!



The "Inscribed with steel"... is another subject... and much more complex.

The original article was not in the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies... it was in an issue of BAR..... so forget your "expert" unless it is the author.... YOu may reach him at John Hopkins...

Now we agreed... no red herrings... so when you are ready to discuss steel, let me know....

But until then, don't dismiss my statement. Jeff Lindsay posted this on his site....


"This appears to be the same as the name mentioned in the Book of Mormon in Alma 16:5, where we read of two sons of Zoram, chief captain of the Nephite army, whose names were Lehi and Aha. Thus we have evidence authenticating another ancient Hebrew name found in the Book of Mormon but not the Bible. ..."

My point is this... Mr. Lindsay claims that the name Aha is Hebrew... when that isn't what the text of the article said.

I can quote the entire article for you if that is what it takes. Mr. Lindsay tends to be selective in his quotes, not necessarily taking the quotes in context, but using selective wording is a deceptive manner.


No where in the article is the name Aha referenced as a Hebrew name.


~malaka~

 

[Serapha]

.



Doc: Yes, but please be more accurate in summarizing and understanding Mr. Lindsay's arguments.



~

Hi there!



If you need an email address for P. Kyle McCarter, you can catch his email address off the college site...

Now, Dr. R. Thomas Chase has been unavailable. His emails address on the internet is not current.

If I misquoted Mr. Lindsay, then I apologize... however, since I didn't misquote him, perhaps you need to apologize... and remember


no red herrings.


~malaka~

 

[Serapha]

And not having access to financial information is not a sign of a honest or healthy organization.

Hi there!




I won't comment on their financial information since I am not privy to the financial statements of the church.

However, knowing that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints owns their own satellite for communications, several newspapers and part-shares of other MAJOR newspapers as well as several radio stations and television stations, I can be assured that millions, possibly billions of dollars have been invested into mass media from tithing dollars.



~malaka~

 

[calgal]

Hi there!




I won't comment on their financial information since I am not privy to the financial statements of the church.

However, knowing that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints owns their own satellite for communications, several newspapers and part-shares of other MAJOR newspapers as well as several radio stations and television stations, I can be assured that millions, possibly billions of dollars have been invested into mass media from tithing dollars.



~malaka~

Too bad more of that $$ is not going to the poor (LDS and non LDS) folks. Interestingly, the Catholic Social Services folks make a point of helping anyone in need, regardless of religion and there is no "worthiness interview" needed. Jewish Family Service and the many Parachurch groups do the same thing. The Mormons DO NOT.

 

[twhite982]

Too bad more of that $$ is not going to the poor (LDS and non LDS) folks. Interestingly, the Catholic Social Services folks make a point of helping anyone in need, regardless of religion and there is no "worthiness interview" needed. Jewish Family Service and the many Parachurch groups do the same thing. The Mormons DO NOT.

You don't know that.
I see the church involved in many humanitarian efforts all the time. Welfare square is NOT just for the LDS. They were and are utilized extensively during difficulties of war and other situations that provide "needy" circumstances for people.

You paint a grossly distorted picture of my church, which I know for sure is incorrect!

TW

 

[twhite982]

Hi there!




I won't comment on their financial information since I am not privy to the financial statements of the church.

However, knowing that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints owns their own satellite for communications, several newspapers and part-shares of other MAJOR newspapers as well as several radio stations and television stations, I can be assured that millions, possibly billions of dollars have been invested into mass media from tithing dollars.



~malaka~

How can you be assured of that?

You just stated you're not privy to the church's financial statements, but you're "assured" that tithing dollars are being used to fund these type of projects.

Sounds like double-talk to me.

TW

 

[texanjo]

Bump

 

[calgal]

You don't know that.
I see the church involved in many humanitarian efforts all the time. Welfare square is NOT just for the LDS. They were and are utilized extensively during difficulties of war and other situations that provide "needy" circumstances for people.

You paint a grossly distorted picture of my church, which I know for sure is incorrect!

TW

Mormon charities are most present when there is a camera crew around. When they went to South America after one of the recent Hurricaines, the comment was "this is for OUR churchmembers" by a 70. Why is that?

 

[fatboys]

Mormon charities are most present when there is a camera crew around. When they went to South America after one of the recent Hurricaines, the comment was "this is for OUR churchmembers" by a 70. Why is that?

Calgal you know nothing about what you are speaking of. I have spent many hours at the humanitarian center packaging items for Kosvo, Rumania, Russia, Iraq, Mexico, etc. Many times these packages do not have anything on them because the religion does not allow any help from Christian organizations. A charity group asks for help, and makes the request from these countries and states no logo's from the church be on them at all. I also remember one time working at the cannery and a muslim group coming to the factory manager to ask if they could can their meat there and that they could put their own labels on them so that they could ship to areas needed. We did the canning. They did not. They had said that other christian canneries denied them access because they were muslim. I am not making these stories up. You have no idea how large the humanitarian center is, and the literally tons of aid sent out every day. I have seen it with my own eyes. A few years back when Kosovo was in need of blankets. There were so many blankets, that they had to store them.

Call up Dr. Laura. Although the church had its name on the packages, it went to her organization that supplied 15,000 blankets to children in this country. You didn't know that did you. I only found out because Dr. Laura was disgusted with the NFL who promised to supply the blankets and backed out. So he got on the her show and asked for help. A member who lived in North Carolina, called humanitarian center, which contacted her, and she got her help. I could tell you story after story Cal. You are so wrong. And the monies that the Chuch gets from tithing only goes to building churches, temples etc. The church has enough holdings that it can use other money from them to support other things. Tithing is sacred funds which the church uses properly.

 

[calgal]

Calgal you know nothing about what you are speaking of. I have spent many hours at the humanitarian center packaging items for Kosvo, Rumania, Russia, Iraq, Mexico, etc. Many times these packages do not have anything on them because the religion does not allow any help from Christian organizations. A charity group asks for help, and makes the request from these countries and states no logo's from the church be on them at all. I also remember one time working at the cannery and a muslim group coming to the factory manager to ask if they could can their meat there and that they could put their own labels on them so that they could ship to areas needed. We did the canning. They did not. They had said that other christian canneries denied them access because they were muslim. I am not making these stories up. You have no idea how large the humanitarian center is, and the literally tons of aid sent out every day. I have seen it with my own eyes. A few years back when Kosovo was in need of blankets. There were so many blankets, that they had to store them.

Call up Dr. Laura. Although the church had its name on the packages, it went to her organization that supplied 15,000 blankets to children in this country. You didn't know that did you. I only found out because Dr. Laura was disgusted with the NFL who promised to supply the blankets and backed out. So he got on the her show and asked for help. A member who lived in North Carolina, called humanitarian center, which contacted her, and she got her help. I could tell you story after story Cal. You are so wrong. And the monies that the Chuch gets from tithing only goes to building churches, temples etc. The church has enough holdings that it can use other money from them to support other things. Tithing is sacred funds which the church uses properly.

Nice words with nothing to back them up. Your lack of concrete examples makes your "situations" suspect at best. Why would I call Dr Laura? Or Oprah for that matter? Why not call Salt Lake and get the dollar amount given relative to total revenue? Oh, I forgot! Salt Lake has not put out financials since 1959 have they?

 

[fatboys]

Nice words with nothing to back them up. Your lack of concrete examples makes your "situations" suspect at best. Why would I call Dr Laura? Or Oprah for that matter? Why not call Salt Lake and get the dollar amount given relative to total revenue? Oh, I forgot! Salt Lake has not put out financials since 1959 have they?

I gave you a specific example that involved a Jewish woman, who has a talk radio program that is national. If you want I will go on line and see if there is anything I can link for you since you seem to be not willing to look for yourself. The other situations are personal observations I have seen with my own eyes. YOU KNOW nothing about the humanitarian efforts of the church. They do not publish the efforts for the world to see.

 

[calgal]

I gave you a specific example that involved a Jewish woman, who has a talk radio program that is national. If you want I will go on line and see if there is anything I can link for you since you seem to be not willing to look for yourself. The other situations are personal observations I have seen with my own eyes. YOU KNOW nothing about the humanitarian efforts of the church. They do not publish the efforts for the world to see.

Laura's religion is immaterial. An unlicenced therapist and some "I saw this and it MUST be true" is not worth much. Some actual amounts or at least some areas where real help was given would be a more impressive response. I could list the people your church denied help to or the struggling families who were grudgingly aided with a LOT of unnecessary gossip about their plight spread throughout their ward. I could discuss PEC info given out as gossip. But that is not what was requested: some figures or NON ALLEGORICAL examples if that is possible.

 

[skylark1]

*Bump*