To TheRabbi re: UMJC/Hasivenu on gentiles

[ChavaK]

A Rabbi friend of mine who moved down South once told me, "In ----- every conversion I performed was to prevent an intermarriage. Down here, not one has been for the sake of marriage. They have all been spiritual seekers, former Christians."

You can't tell me that something's not going on. I talked to a guy in Jeusalem last week who told me that he was studying at Dallas Theological Seminary when he realized the truth and that they broke his nose and kicked him out for talking to other people about it.

I agree this is a definite phenomena. In our Orthodox
community we have a lot of converts. Given how
stringent Orthodoxy is about conversion, I can only
imagine the large number of converts via Reform/
Conservative.
Jews that convert to Christianity or become messianic almost overwhelmingly come from non-observant
households. Gentiles that convert to Judaism ( I can
only speak from an Orthodox POV, as that is my
community and familarity) generaly were well educated
practicing Christians. Simply an observation on
my part......

 

[simchat_torah]

Then why did Yeshua send us out "to make disciples" and to evangelize? Why are we told to be His witnesses, to be fishers of men, to lead others to a saving faith in Yeshua?

I think it is the second part that some consider an assumption. There are some who believe they are actively partaking in the evangelizing, but that the latter part is an interpretation by gentiles and Christian scholars. Some Messianics don't believe this was part of the "gospel".

I'm not stating my beliefs, just answering the question from the MJ perspective... fyi.

 

[simchat_torah]

Given how
stringent Orthodoxy is about conversion, I can only
imagine the large number of converts via Reform/
Conservative.

I would also say given the large number of converts in Orthodoxy, that means there are also numerous others wanted to convert, but were subsequently denied... possibly these attempts at conversion were never followed through with by the convertees. I have met dozens who tried to convert but never went all the way through with it.

 

[Henaynei]

It was addressed to Ger Tzedek. I wasn't trying to deny you permission to respond. I was ensuring that you didn't mistake anything I said to Ger as being directed at you.

ok, not a problem

Listen, I really don't want to play the numbers game with you. Because when people want to show the success of MJism, they shlep out these inflated numbers of MJ congregations. When confronted with the lack of Jews in MJism, suddenly the only real MJ congregations are the ones with lots of Jews (and even then, they play fast and loose with the term Jew).

I feel I need to state that I feel this is feels some what disingenuous of you. I have not mentioned any numbers. I *have* challenged the quantitative implications of many of *your* posts.

Neither have I stated *anywhere* that I* was ever acquainted with any MJ congregation that had "lots" or even a "good number" of Jews. The *best* I've personally seen is about 10% Jewish. I've *heard* of congregations that were of a majority of True Jews, but I've *never* seen, nor do I know of anyone in leadership in the Movement who has been able to produce proof such exist.

I *have* stated that in the congregations with which my husband, a Jewish Messianic, and I have been involved were lead by Jewish Messianics and that these leaders have lead in such a way as to try to foster and encourage a growth toward Torah observance and Torah sensitivity as well as a respect and sensitivity for the role and calling of the Jewish people. This being true these congregations have not been the magnet for the socially and spiritually self-disenfranchised and self deluded, the gentile folk coming out of the gentile Church with Jewish Envy that the Messy congregations often tend to be. It is not that we have been ignorant of these folk or immune to their presence, but we have not seen a great influx of them into the congregations in which we have been involved (for the reasons stated above) and therefore, neither have we seen more than 5 gentiles in the past 29 years who have been members in these congregations (individuals totaling around 500 people, and most, granted, are not Jewish) who have left, rejected Messiah Yeshua and converted to mainstream Judaism. That is maybe as much as one percent. Not a pleasing or terrific number, and each one is precious and mourned, but it’s not exactly the hemorrhage some seem to think is happening either. (Ohoh, I actually mentioned a number… sorry)

I will grant that in congregations whose composition is largely (even if not mostly) made up of those Christians who I've previously identified as emotion seekers, Church hoppers and just plain (spiritually or emotionally) kronkhite who want to put on a kippah, dance the hora, use a few Hebrew words and then insist that everyone in the movement call them Jewish and grant them “full status” equal to the Jews, on their way to the IHOP after Friday night "shul" for some sausage and eggs - in these congregations I've no doubt that their drop out rate is a great deal higher.

My assertion is that in a great many, even a majority of cases where the convert says they were Messianic (but not of another Christian denomination):
1) this is so because of the reasons those people left the Church and joined a Messy congregation in the first place and
2) the reason that the "mainline" Christian denominations don't record significant or even similar numbers of drop outs from their ekklesia is that those folk usually migrate into MJ congregations of one kind or another well before they finally drop out and convert and
3) because the Messy side of MJism seems to draw those identified in the paragraph above and in points #1 & #2, that the "numbers" of drop outs who convert to mainstream Judaism and self identify as having been previously Messianic are therefore distorted...

Thus it is not that MJism is causing the problem or disease, only that it is the "litmus test" exposure to which identifies many of those who are in the process of leaving Yeshua to attach themselves to an unconscious form of Replacement Theology -- and if they can't "be Jews" in MJism without having to convert they just go ahead and convert, period.

I wonder if your colleagues have done any long term studies to see how many of these "converts" from MJism they believe they are seeing actually stay with Judaism and faithful to their level of conversion, Orthodox or Conservative over the long haul. I also wonder if *some* of your colleagues might not be just a tad too quickly convinced to convert some of these people *because* they are renouncing and denouncing MJism and their presence *feels* like a verification and justification of presuppositions on the part of the leadership of the Jewish Community toward MJism, True MJism.

I wish to say that I’m writing this on the “fly,” after a rather exhausting day and if it rambles or is disjointed, I apologize, truly L

b’Shalom
Henaynei

 

[TheRabbi]

Neither have I stated *anywhere* that I* was ever acquainted with any MJ congregation that had "lots" or even a "good number" of Jews. The *best* I've personally seen is about 10% Jewish. I've *heard* of congregations that were of a majority of True Jews, but I've *never* seen, nor do I know of anyone in leadership in the Movement who has been able to produce proof such exist.

And I never attributed such a statement to you. I'm having trouble finding any kind of a point to your posts on this subject. If the above quote is true, why on earth couldn't you just agree with me when I said that the MJ movement was primarily comprised of Gentiles? Why did you feel a need to react negatively when I said that?

 

[GeratTzedek]

Rabbi, you once said that statisitics bore out that more gentiles were coming into rabbinical Judaism through MJ than Jew coming into Yeshua faith through MJ. I did and do take you at your word for that.

However, that said, let's examine a few things.

1. Given that in human nature a certain amount of people by temperament are innately dissatisfied and searching, there will be crossovers. There are far more gentiles in the world than Jews. Therefore there are going to be more gentile crossovers than Jewish crossovers.

2. While crossovers of both types are happening, they are so few as to be insignificant. That is why they are for the most part not noticed.

When so many gentiles are coming into MJ that they are posing a threat to the Jewish identity of future generations of Messianic JEWS, who is going to notice the teeny weeny percentage that is converting to rabbinical Judaism?

 

[GeratTzedek]

Henaynei:

This is the second post where you have described gentiles converting to rabbinical Judaism as a problem and even a disease. I have to tell you I find that wording highly offensive.

 

[Henaynei]

Henaynei:

This is the second post where you have described gentiles converting to rabbinical Judaism as a problem and even a disease. I have to tell you I find that wording highly offensive.

actually, it is at least my third post in this thread where I have done so.

I am specifically referring to those gentiles who are Christians or believers who convert to mainstream Judaism and in doing so either lie about their belief in Yeshua or renounce Him as Messiah.... yes, that is a sickness, a soul sickness ....

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[Henaynei]

And I never attributed such a statement to you. I'm having trouble finding any kind of a point to your posts on this subject. If the above quote is true, why on earth couldn't you just agree with me when I said that the MJ movement was primarily comprised of Gentiles? Why did you feel a need to react negatively when I said that?

when countered with challenges to the assertions you have made in stating something to the effect "I think we can all agree these are the facts" you have consistently ducked and dodged and set up a non sequitur as the "point" of your subsequent post, totally ignoring the points addressing your issues and statements in your posts.

This is what you said

Let's take a look at some generally accepted facts and see if I understand what you are saying.

b) The movement is primarily comprised of Jesus believing gentiles who find their way into it and soon want to participate fully and learn more

and what I replied....

not all, but a significant number, yes. Their reasons, as I mentioned above can diverge significantly.

As I said in a subsequent post I explained why I made the statement above in response to your replying post...

Primarily means majority, for the most part, chiefly, mainly, principally. Thus in this context I think I responded to the intent and context of your statement. I did/do not agree with where you were headed with this. You were building an A+B+C+D=E argument. Therefore the context of the comments you made that those gentiles in B "who find their way into it and soon want to participate fully and learn more" where "a good deal of these Gentiles leave the movement for normative Judaism and renounce their faith in Jesus" would suggest that your use of primarily meant "for the most part or the majority. I do not see, neither have you presented any data to show this is so.

It is you, honored sir, who are "playing" a "game."

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[TheRabbi]

"I think we can all agree these are the facts" you have consistently ducked and dodged and set up a non sequitur as the "point" of your subsequent post, totally ignoring the points addressing your issues and statements in your posts.

Can someone tell me what she means? I'm just not getting it at all.

Henayni,
I can't even figure out what your argument is, so why don't we just say that you won and leave it at that?

 

[Henaynei]

Can someone tell me what she means? I'm just not getting it at all.

Henaynei,
I can't even figure out what your argument is, so why don't we just say that you won and leave it at that?

I don't believe that for a second, but if this is the way you wish to leave it I've no desire in forcing the issue

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[TheRabbi]

You think I'm lying when I say I don't understand you?

 

[ChazakEmunah]

I'm sorry I must disagree with you Rabbi. The main worry is the passing along Jewish identity to their children.

If gentiles converting to Judaism were a problem to Messianics, they wouldn't offer conversion.

Sure they would, because they know full well that such a conversion won't be accepted by anyone other than themselves... Some Reform 'Rabbi' might be accept it, but that would be about it.

 

[ChazakEmunah]

I agree this is a definite phenomena. In our Orthodox
community we have a lot of converts. Given how
stringent Orthodoxy is about conversion, I can only
imagine the large number of converts via Reform/
Conservative.
Jews that convert to Christianity or become messianic almost overwhelmingly come from non-observant
households. Gentiles that convert to Judaism ( I can
only speak from an Orthodox POV, as that is my
community and familarity) generaly were well educated
practicing Christians. Simply an observation on
my part......

I find this very interesting. In our tiny Orthodox community (the Jewish community in our area as a whole is larger, but most are either Reform or Reformative), we only have 3 people who converted. Three of us are Ba'alei T'shuva, and there are a couple others with varying levels of observance.

 

[GeratTzedek]

I find this very interesting. In our tiny Orthodox community (the Jewish community in our area as a whole is larger, but most are either Reform or Reformative), we only have 3 people who converted. Three of us are Ba'alei T'shuva, and there are a couple others with varying levels of observance.

In Los Angeles, the Reform actually ADVERTISE for converts. It's really kind of a cool advertisement. It says try a "taste of Judaism." And has a spoon.

 

[ChavaK]

In Los Angeles, the Reform actually ADVERTISE for converts. It's really kind of a cool advertisement. It says try a "taste of Judaism." And has a spoon.

Yeah, I've heard of those classes and ads before....
I still can't get used to the idea of advertising for
converts.....

 

[ChavaK]

I'm sorry I must disagree with you Rabbi. The main worry is the passing along Jewish identity to their children.

It's interesting, from our POV by becoming Messianic
these Jews have lost their Jewish identity and have
nothing to pass on to their children. And since a
great many are Jewish men who have married
non-Jews, the kids are not Jewish anyway...so what
identity is there to pass on?

 

[ChavaK]

I find this very interesting. In our tiny Orthodox community (the Jewish community in our area as a whole is larger, but most are either Reform or Reformative), we only have 3 people who converted. Three of us are Ba'alei T'shuva, and there are a couple others with varying levels of observance.

We have a small Orthodox community too, but there
are a lot of converts. Four were friends of mine
who ended up making Aliyah (going to visit them in
Israel gives me another reason to make a trip there ).
Seems like I remember reading somewhere that this
area has one of the highest rates of people converting
to Judaism in the country...

 

[GeratTzedek]

It's interesting, from our POV by becoming Messianic these Jews have lost their Jewish identity and have nothing to pass on to their children.

This is not the understanding I have learned from the Orthodox. What I have learned is that for a Jew to become a believer in Yeshua, they are apostate, but are STILL A JEW.

It therefore remains important that, even from your point of view, they preserve that identity as best as possible and pass it down to their children.

And you are incorrect if you think that all have intermarried, or that all intermarriages are with gentile women. So your second point is moot.

But your point of view notwithstanding, I am presenting THEIR point of view. And yes, preserving their Jewish identity and passing it down to their children has become one of the most talked about issues.

Hope this was helpful.

 

[ChavaK]

This is not the understanding I have learned from the Orthodox. What I have learned is that for a Jew to become a believer in Yeshua, they are apostate, but are STILL A JEW.

Yes they are still Jews, but they have been lost
to the Jewish people.

It therefore remains important that, even from your point of view, they preserve that identity as best as possible and pass it down to their children.

Only if they return to Judaism...otherwise they are
lost. And in the long run, many will "marry out" as
do the assimilated Jews and disappear...

And you are incorrect if you think that all have intermarried, or that all intermarriages are with gentile women. So your second point is moot.

I don't think so....look at the participants on this
forum. I don't think that of the marriages involving
a messianic Jew there is a single one that isn't an intermarriage.
There are few female gentile messianic posters
here who are married to Jews. It seems to be the norm...

Hope this was helpful.

Yes it was, as always.....