To TheRabbi re: UMJC/Hasivenu on gentiles

[GeratTzedek]

Nearly everybody outside the MJ movement. Even many INSIDE it (i.e., the UMJC).

Rabbi:

You were asking Steve who was telling him not to worship like a Jew. His reply was an exaggeration about UMJC, but true enough.

The UMJC has begun to develop a new position regarding gentile worship and gentiles in our midst. It has always supported the gentile churches and still does. It has always welcomed gentiles into its own synagogues and still does.

HOWEVER, if one of the primary purposes of the MJ movement is to restore Jewish identity and observence, having the majority of the membership being gentile runs counter to this objective. Why? Because without meaning to, we gentiles bring into the synagogue outside theology, outside mentality, outside traditions, outside culture.

It is so critical that Jews pass on their Jewish identity to their children. To do this, they need the help of Jewish community, not gentile churches. I'm not saying they need to live in a vaccuum where there are only Jews, but certainly they NEED Jewish community. They need to live around Jews, worship with Jews, eat with Jews, talk with Jews, argue with Jews, have a glass of l'chaim with Jews, pray with Jews. And they aren't going to have that in a congregational community that is 90% goyim.

There is also a great concern with the identity confusion many gentile members are feeling -- there is nothing good about that. It is NOT RIGHT that they come to believe that they are Jewish simply because they feel Jewish or act Jewish. And it is NOT RIGHT that they may feel they are second class simply because they are not Jews.

The present circumstances are just WRONG for everyone concerned, and need to be fixed.

Hashivenu is a think tank within UMJC. It deals with MANY issues. It's overarching theme has been, "Messianic Judaism is a Judaism." When I first came across the Hashivenu website, my immediate thought was, "This is it. This is the group that is going to save MJ from itself. In fact, this is more than that. This is the future." They are absolutely brilliant. Hashivenu suggested that the gentile issue be approached in a new way.

Hashivenu is not without its detractors. Sheesh, do rabbis EVER do anything without argument amongst themselves? There are those bitterly opposed to its suggestions regarding gentile believers.

The first step has been taken by our Rabbinical Council, which is urging that congregational leaders clarify status issues to its members, and gradually undo the wishy-washy blurriness they are responsible for having created. There are Jews, there are gentiles, and there are gentiles seeking conversion. They are all equal under G-d, but very different things are required of them.

It's the second step is much more hotly debated. UMJC is very divided over it: Hashivenu is very strong in this new direction, but there are still many congregations of the old way of thinking. Basically, Hashivenu suggests that we should see within MJ synagogues what we would see in any synagogue: gentiles, but not lots and lots of gentiles. Not syngagogues run by gentiles with a few token Jews. How could it be a Messianic JEWISH congregation without Jews?

Hashivenu has dared to explore looking at the motivations for WHY gentiles come to MJ synagogues. And not all the reasons are equally good.

Let's say a very nice Christian family decided to come to your local Orthodox synagogue there in Jerusalem. You are polite and even friendly, although it makes you feel a little odd. Eventually the timing is right and you get around to asking them what draws them to your synagogue. And the wife says, "Well, we just like the Jewish people, and we want to worship on Saturday, because Jesus did." What are you going to do? what would most in your congregation do? What do you think the leadership of your congregation would do?

The leaders of Hashivenu suggest that we be very kind to such people. That we do NOT run them out. But in the course of events, as topics come up for discussion, their congregational leaders may wish to suggest to them that they might be better suited in a Christian church, perhaps a Seventh Day Adventist. Why? Because the reasons they have given are not sufficient, especially given the problem the percentage of gentiles is posing to the messianic community.

There are three groups of gentiles which Hashivenu suggests DO fully belong within MJ communities: those married to Jews, those drawn to conversion to Judaism, and those with a rare charism to the Jewish People.

What is NORMATIVE for the gentiles with yeshua-faith are the gentile churches, and this should be supported.

This is how I have noticed things pan out in my own congregation: We encourage Jewish visitors to return. We are friendly to gentile visitors but not explicitly encouraging. Occasionally, we discuss our mission statement, part of which is "We are a Westside JEWISH congregation," and what that means.

In my experience, those gentiles that are PERSISTENT in hanging around eventually begin to ask themselves if they shouldn't convert. I know several who are at the stage where they have not asked for conversion, but want it. They say things like, "I want to be sure this is something I really want, that its really the right thing, and that I'm not just confused. After all, there is nothing wrong with being a gentile." That sounds very healthy to me.

And it's why I queried Steve whether he might not consider conversion. I don't remember him responding. I don't know his feelings. Some believe it is wrong or insulting to convert. Who knows what he thinks. But it wouldn't surprise me if he does some day, either.

I don't know if this has been fascinating, boring, or somewhere in between. If you want to read more, I would suggest going to the website of the Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Council and reading what they've posted on Conversion.
http://www.ourrabbis.org/main/content/view/18/32/
Another good one is Dan Juster's article on gentile identiy confusion, "Who Am I?"
http://www.tikkunministries.org/newsletters/dj-dec04.asp

 

[TheRabbi]

I'm going to be brutally honest with you. And what I say may very well get me into trouble here.

I don't believe for one second that the leaders of the UMJC are worried about how they look to the Jewish people. This is because they know, just like I know, that MJism is not an effective tool for converting Jews. The vast majority of Jews that are brought to faith in Jesus are brought to him by mainline Christian denominations. And once they go that route, they have absolutely no desire to be bombarded with the symbolism and imagery of precisely what they were rejecting by becoming Christian.

So the question is, What are the leaders of the UMJS really worried about? I believe, Ger Tzedek, that they are worried about people such as yourself. You and many other people on this forum more than likely know or know of someone who has converted to Judaism as a result of being exposed to a messianic congregation. I can take you to settlements in Israel where they make up a significant minorityof the population. Mitzpeh Yericho would be an example. The local papers run stories on these families all the time.

So the UMJC, MJAA and other organizations dedicated to presenting the Gospel to Jews, have found themselves in the frustrating position of actually being a stepping stone out of Christianity and into mainline Judaism for many Christians.

They are now engaged in trying to find a way to put the brakes on this unpleasant and embarrassing phenomenon. One proposed method is to push the gentiles away (unlikely since the movement can't sustain itself without them) and the other is to offer them a "Messianic Conversion" or something similar in hopes that it will placate them.

I could be wrong, but that's my read on what's going on right now.

 

[Lulav]

I'm going to be brutally honest with you. And what I say may very well get me into trouble here.

I don't believe for one second that the leaders of the UMJC are worried about how they look to the Jewish people. This is because they know, just like I know, that MJism is not an effective tool for converting Jews. The vast majority of Jews that are brought to faith in Jesus are brought to him by mainline Christian denominations. And once they go that route, they have absolutely no desire to be bombarded with the symbolism and imagery of precisely what they were rejecting by becoming Christian.

So the question is, What are the leaders of the UMJS really worried about? I believe, Ger Tzedek, that they are worried about people such as yourself. You and many other people on this forum more than likely know or know of someone who has converted to Judaism as a result of being exposed to a messianic congregation. I can take you to settlements in Israel where they make up a significant minorityof the population. Mitzpeh Yericho would be an example. The local papers run stories on these families all the time.

So the UMJC, MJAA and other organizations dedicated to presenting the Gospel to Jews, have found themselves in the frustrating position of actually being a stepping stone out of Christianity and into mainline Judaism for many Christians.

They are now engaged in trying to find a way to put the brakes on this unpleasant and embarrassing phenomenon. One proposed method is to push the gentiles away (unlikely since the movement can't sustain itself without them) and the other is to offer them a "Messianic Conversion" or something similar in hopes that it will placate them.

I could be wrong, but that's my read on what's going on right now.

I would say that you may be right about this TheRabbi, but the main reason that the worry is there in the first place is because MJ is too much like Christianity and it shouldn't be. This is a bandaid for a problem that shouldn't have happened in the first place, but it did, and this is a lot of back peddling.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I'm going to be brutally honest with you. And what I say may very well get me into trouble here.

I don't believe for one second that the leaders of the UMJC are worried about how they look to the Jewish people. This is because they know, just like I know, that MJism is not an effective tool for converting Jews. The vast majority of Jews that are brought to faith in Jesus are brought to him by mainline Christian denominations. And once they go that route, they have absolutely no desire to be bombarded with the symbolism and imagery of precisely what they were rejecting by becoming Christian.

So the question is, What are the leaders of the UMJS really worried about? I believe, Ger Tzedek, that they are worried about people such as yourself. You and many other people on this forum more than likely know or know of someone who has converted to Judaism as a result of being exposed to a messianic congregation. I can take you to settlements in Israel where they make up a significant minorityof the population. Mitzpeh Yericho would be an example. The local papers run stories on these families all the time.

So the UMJC, MJAA and other organizations dedicated to presenting the Gospel to Jews, have found themselves in the frustrating position of actually being a stepping stone out of Christianity and into mainline Judaism for many Christians.

They are now engaged in trying to find a way to put the brakes on this unpleasant and embarrassing phenomenon. One proposed method is to push the gentiles away (unlikely since the movement can't sustain itself without them) and the other is to offer them a "Messianic Conversion" or something similar in hopes that it will placate them.

I could be wrong, but that's my read on what's going on right now.

I know you are right about this. I have seen the conversion train on this forum.

FFOZ is fullly aware of the trend and have created a series of conferences to counter it. The conference is called 'To Whom Shall We Go?' based on the words of Peter to Jesus.

The UMJC is/has adopted a very strong position AGAINST evangelizing Jews. Read the writings of Mark Kinzer.

In some ways I am becoming very Buddhist about religion. 'Live and let live' seems to be true wisdom.

 

[christianmomof3]

Very interesting. I would say that both Ger and Rabbi have brought up valid points. Ger, did you read my response to your question? It is here http://foru.ms/t6223706-not-sure-what-to-title-this.html
and I think some of what I said is sort of addressed in your post here.
MJ is a gentile religion that wants to be Jewish, it does not truly understand the Jewish culture and so it is not attracting and converting Jews, but rather offending them so as Rabbi said, the Jews who are converting to Christianity do so through other Christian groups.
And as Rabbi also said, MJ seems to be a stepping stone for Christians moving out of Christianity and into Judaism rather than the other way around - at least that has been seen on this forum.

I had originally looked into the MJ religion because I want my children to learn about my and their Jewish heritage and I thought that MJ might be the way to do that and yet not have them feel that there is anything wrong with them being Christians as well. But, it seems that the MJ religion is rather anti-Christian in it's attitudes and I have not yet felt comfortable enough to attend one of their functions. I am still praying about it though and there are a few MJ synagogues in my area and I may venture over to one at some point.

I did find, though, that I do enjoy the Chabad activities and it seems to be a good way of teaching my children about the Jewish religion in a non-judgemental atmosphere. There are lots of Jews in mixed marriages here and it seems that like myself, there are others bringing their children to the Chabad children's functions to learn about the Jewish religion.

 

[Henaynei]

It is true that the vast majority of Jews who have come to a believing faith the Messiah have been brought there by gentile believers.... it is also true that the VAST majority of Jews in MJism have come OUT of the gentile congregations and have turned back toward their heritage, albeit that heritage includes Messiah Yeshua.

The gentile believing community is nearly 2000 years old, the contemporary MJ community is just over 100. That is a 20:1 advantage in effort and exposure... and yet a goodly number of Jews ARE Messianics. And an even stranger thing is that even among the Jews in MJism who shun Torah obedience (and I freely admit they do exist) they were drawn to MJism as a Jewish expression and to come OUT of the gentile community.

The leaders in the Hashveinu, UMJC and MJRC efforts, are all born Jewish, they are/were not gentiles. Their concern is for the health, veracity and fidelity to Torah Judaism (as they see it, including the Jewish Rabbi Yeshua).

The problems with the gentiles in this community are directly related to the reasons they came into the MJ movement.

Those who came seeking a more ancient, esoteric and ethnically Jewish experience are largely the ones claiming their presence here makes them Jewish, and bring dishonor on MJism in the eye of Jews both in and outside the movement. They also are prone to the disease of "offense," thinking of themselves as second class citizens and that those around them (the Jews in this movement) see them the same way when it is suggested that they not participate in the distinctly Jewish activities of the synagogue.

Those gentiles who came in MJism because G-d had been working on their hearts for years, making them increasingly uncomfortable and confused, saddened and angered by the Replacement Theology and Kingdom Now doctrines infecting the gentile believing community as He increased their clarity of vision and understanding of the place of the Jewish people in G-d's past, present and future plan - these are usually earmarked by a humility in their position in the MJ community, a refusal to call themselves or allow others to call them Jewish. They also tend to have a servants heart rather than the entitlement heart usually seen by the others.

The others are those most often who end up going off into non-MJism, for the very reasons that got them into MJism in the first place. It is just another form to replacement doctrine - they *have* to be Jewish, one way or another. It is actually Jewish envy as pointed out by Theodore Isaac Rubin in his book, Anti-Semitism: A Disease of the Mind: A Psychiatrist Explores the Psychodynamics of a Symbol Sickness.

Now I will retire to go to the store to get some first aid supplies for burn and to get my asbestos long-johns from the cleaners (I sure hope they were able to repair the wholes from the last time )


b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[visionary]

I, a gentile, called by God, lead by God to this place in my spiritual path to learn as much as I can in the original hebrew mindset, so that I can understand better what was going on in scripture, in the future, and how it all relates to when the time of the gentiles is over and the blinders come off of the jews.

MJ is such a place to learn such things.

I have no interest in becoming a jew. I do believe I should keep the ten commandments, eat as the Lord indicates is clean and good to eat, and that the fall feasts are soon to be fulfilled just like the spring time were, and it is just as important to be there in mind and spirit as it was on the day of Pentacost.

So what the organization decides matters only it applies to me. I am not bound by their decisions. Nor will I let them control my understanding or interpretation, as I believe that is up to God to show me exactly how I am to see things. And He will show me those things in His time. I trust Him.

 

[BereanTodd]

In some ways I am becoming very Buddhist about religion. 'Live and let live' seems to be true wisdom.

Then why did Yeshua send us out "to make disciples" and to evangelize? Why are we told to be His witnesses, to be fishers of men, to lead others to a saving faith in Yeshua?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Then why did Yeshua send us out "to make disciples" and to evangelize? Why are we told to be His witnesses, to be fishers of men, to lead others to a saving faith in Yeshua?

You do it. I'm tired.

 

[GeratTzedek]

I'm sorry I must disagree with you Rabbi. The main worry is the passing along Jewish identity to their children.

If gentiles converting to Judaism were a problem to Messianics, they wouldn't offer conversion.

 

[TheRabbi]

Let's take a look at some generally accepted facts and see if I understand what you are saying.

a) The UMCJ is an organization that has as its declared goal, spreading faith in Jesus to both Jew and Gentile trough the messianic movement.

b) The movement is primarily comprised of Jesus believing gentiles who find their way into it and soon want to participate fully and learn more.

c) Frustrated by their lack of full acceptance, a good deal of these Gentiles leave the movement for normative Judaism and renounce their faith in Jesus.

d) By limiting the involvement of Gentiles and frustrating them, the movement has unwittingly become the very antithesis of it's stated purpose. Instead of bringing Jews to faith in Jesus, they are inadvertantly providing a platform that moves Gentiles away from their faith in Jesus and into mainstream Judaism.

I think these are facts that most of can agree on. Now I have some questions for you.

Are you saying that the UMJC is not bothered by Gentiles coming through their movement and renouncing their faith in Jesus?

Are you saying that they think it is somehow okay?

Are you saying that the idea that the UMJC could create their own alernative conversion rite as part of a solution to this problem is unlikely?

If I've misunderstood your position please clarify for me.

 

[Henaynei]

Let's take a look at some generally accepted facts and see if I understand what you are saying.

generally accepted by whom?

a) The UMCJ is an organization that has as its declared goal, spreading faith in Jesus to both Jew and Gentile trough the messianic movement.

What are the Objectives of the UMJC?
http://www.umjc.net/content/view/18/58/ ​

Every organization has objectives for its long-term success. The UMJC's objectives address important issues in the Jewish world in general and in Messianic Judaism in particular.

1. To further the initiation, establishment, and growth of Messianic Jewish Congregations worldwide.
2. To be a voice for Messianic Jewish Congregations and Messianic Judaism worldwide.
3. To provide a forum for the discussion of issues relevant to Messianic Judaism and Messianic Jewish Congregations.
4. To aid in the causes of our Jewish people worldwide, especially in Israel.
5. To support the training of Messianic Leaders.

b) The movement is primarily comprised of Jesus believing gentiles who find their way into it and soon want to participate fully and learn more.

not all, but a significant number, yes. Their reasons, as I mentioned above can diverge significantly.

c) Frustrated by their lack of full acceptance, a good deal of these Gentiles leave the movement for normative Judaism and renounce their faith in Jesus.

a few, true, but not the majority… again, their reasons for joining the movement in the first place are often at the root of such decisions.

d) By limiting the involvement of Gentiles and frustrating them, the movement has unwittingly become the very antithesis of it's stated purpose.

sorry I don’t see this

Instead of bringing Jews to faith in Jesus, they are inadvertently providing a platform that moves Gentiles away from their faith in Jesus and into mainstream Judaism.

no, this is not so. It is the heart attitude of those gentiles to which you refer that is doing this, and I’d bet at not a much different rate than the “falling away,” or apostasy, in the main body of the Church. It is perhaps more visible in a smaller group, as MJism is a much smaller group or community than the Church.

I think these are facts that most of can agree on. Now I have some questions for you.

not in the slightest. This appears to be a straw man and not related to the reality in many ways at all.

Are you saying that the UMJC is not bothered by Gentiles coming through their movement and renouncing their faith in Jesus?

any body of believers, Messianic or Christian, is saddened when one of their number “falls away,” just as in mainstream Judaism it is lamentable when one of their number become assimilated and fails to pass on their heritage.

But again the numbers are very small.

This whole line of reasoning by you strongly reminds me of some effort to force an intelligent computer into some fatal memory loop where you convince it that it’s very existence is the cause of an injury and yet it exists to prevent injury… but based as it is on faulty premises the logic of the argument is also flawed.

Are you saying that they think it is somehow okay?

see answer above

Are you saying that the idea that the UMJC could create their own alternative conversion rite as part of a solution to this problem is unlikely?

The conversion is for those who have acceptable reasons for conversion. It is to protect and foster MJism as a Judaism. It is not about stemming any rising tide as you might characterize it; rather it is to preserve the Judaism in MJism.

If I've misunderstood your position please clarify for me.

I believe I have, here and in my previous post.

b'Shalom
Heanynei

 

[TheRabbi]

My post was not addressed to you any previous post of yours. It was addressed to the post that preceded it.

At any rate, let's get started on your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRabbi
Let's take a look at some generally accepted facts and see if I understand what you are saying.

generally accepted by whom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRabbi
a) The UMCJ is an organization that has as its declared goal, spreading faith in Jesus to both Jew and Gentile trough the messianic movement.

Quote:

What are the Objectives of the UMJC?
http://www.umjc.net/content/view/18/58/ ​

Every organization has objectives for its long-term success. The UMJC's objectives address important issues in the Jewish world in general and in Messianic Judaism in particular.

1. To further the initiation, establishment, and growth of Messianic Jewish Congregations worldwide.
2. To be a voice for Messianic Jewish Congregations and Messianic Judaism worldwide.
3. To provide a forum for the discussion of issues relevant to Messianic Judaism and Messianic Jewish Congregations.
4. To aid in the causes of our Jewish people worldwide, especially in Israel.
5. To support the training of Messianic Leaders.

Again, common sense can go a long way here. The stuff you posted clearly says that the UMJC is here to build and foster MJism. That means that the UMJC stands for the core beliefs of MJism. I find it incredible that you would take issue with the idea that your scriptures give you a mandate to preach the Gospel to all flesh.

Quote:
b) The movement is primarily comprised of Jesus believing gentiles who find their way into it and soon want to participate fully and learn more.
not all, but a significant number, yes. Their reasons, as I mentioned above can diverge significantly.

"Primarilary" isn't usually indicative of all, so I'm at a loss as to why you'd feel a need to mount a rebuttal. I could have been a bit more honest and said "The overwhelming majority when the movement is taken as a whole".

Quote:
c) Frustrated by their lack of full acceptance, a good deal of these Gentiles leave the movement for normative Judaism and renounce their faith in Jesus.
a few, true, but not the majority… again, their reasons for joining the movement in the first place are often at the root of such decisions.

Again, you rebutt statements I haven't made. "A good deal" is not generally taken to mean "the majority", so I don't know why you felt a need to say so.

Quote:
d) By limiting the involvement of Gentiles and frustrating them, the movement has unwittingly become the very antithesis of it's stated purpose.
sorry I don’t see this

Whether you see it or not is immaterial. It's a fact. It's a fact that I see every day. While you're not seeing it, we're reaping the benefits of it.

Instead of bringing Jews to faith in Jesus, they are inadvertently providing a platform that moves Gentiles away from their faith in Jesus and into mainstream Judaism.
no, this is not so. It is the heart attitude of those gentiles to which you refer that is doing this, and I’d bet at not a much different rate than the “falling away,” or apostasy, in the main body of the Church. It is perhaps more visible in a smaller group, as MJism is a much smaller group or community than the Church.

Really? Let's just take a wild guess. Where do you think the greater number of converts to Judaism are coming from in America? Is it the Baptists, the Catholics, The Lutherans? Or could it be the Messianic Jewish movement? You tell me.

Quote:
I think these are facts that most of can agree on. Now I have some questions for you.
not in the slightest. This appears to be a straw man and not related to the reality in many ways at all.

My reality is what I and my community see in front of our eyes. We're reaping from fields that we did not sow. Even the Conservative movement is seeing a spike in conversions all along the Bible belt and that spike is commensurate with the growth of messianic congregations. Do you think the Hindus and Daoists are seeing the same kind of spike in converts in the Bible belt?

Quote:
Are you saying that the UMJC is not bothered by Gentiles coming through their movement and renouncing their faith in Jesus?
any body of believers, Messianic or Christian, is saddened when one of their number “falls away,” just as in mainstream Judaism it is lamentable when one of their number become assimilated and fails to pass on their heritage.

But again the numbers are very small.

I didn't say masses of Christians were converting to Judaism. But I am saying that Mjism, whether it is at fault or not, is putting out more Gentile converts to judaism than Jewish converts to Jesus. I'm sure it's not a pleasant fact, but it is indeed a fact. Anti-Missionary organizations have had to re-organize their thinking as they began to see this.

This whole line of reasoning by you strongly reminds me of some effort to force an intelligent computer into some fatal memory loop where you convince it that it’s very existence is the cause of an injury and yet it exists to prevent injury… but based as it is on faulty premises the logic of the argument is also flawed.

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything. I'm simply stating facts and lest you think I'm using some carefully crafted subterfuge against the kingdom of your Messiah, I would remind you that most of what I put forth in my original reply was corroborated by several faithful, Bible believing messianics on this very forum.

I didn't start this thread. I simply answered a question that I was personally asked in the OP. I really don't understand why I'm being asked questions about internal issues within Messianic Judaism. I do my best to avoid such threads and when you guys get me involved this kind of thing, I really can't respond in full as the rules of this forum require me to tread lightly on such matters.

Quote:
Are you saying that the idea that the UMJC could create their own alternative conversion rite as part of a solution to this problem is unlikely?
The conversion is for those who have acceptable reasons for conversion. It is to protect and foster MJism as a Judaism. It is not about stemming any rising tide as you might characterize it; rather it is to preserve the Judaism in MJism.

Great, let's see how well it works.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Dear Rabbi:

Please be very careful when reading things into the wording of declarative statements. Many times such statements can mean more than one thing, and in the case of the rabbis of UMJC, it usually means ALL of those possibilities, especially when they contradict! MJ is held together by very few core beliefs: belief that Yeshua is Messiah, the integrity of Israel and its covenant, and the necessity of Yeshua-faith Jews to remember and rediscover Jewish identity as primary. Beyond that, there is argument over just about everything.

For example, let's look at at one of the listed objectives of UMJC:
To further the initiation, establishment, and growth of Messianic Jewish Congregations worldwide.
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? The truth is that it means different things to different rabbis. I don't know of any to whom it means making gentiles into MJ's, but it COULD be read that way. There are those in UMJC for whom this statement is classic missionary thinking. But there are many others for whom it is anything but. For them, it has to do only with finding Jews in the churches, and bringing them into Messianic Judaism. This is the Daienu/Hashivenu split in UMJC, or what I think of as "old school, new school," old school being UMJC's Protestant past, new school being its Judaic future.

The Borough Park Symposium taking place this week is a case in point. It has been put together by those in Messianic Judaism who are of the old school, and very into missionizing of rabbinical Jews. But all the leadership will be there, and the speeches given and heated discussions held will all be quite filled with controversy, because the new school is very set AGAINST missionizing of rabbinical Jews.

So, while everyone agrees on the wording, it means different things to different people.

Now let's look at another stated objective of UMJC:
To aid in the causes of our Jewish people worldwide, especially in Israel.
Within this objective is the issue I have addressed -- the problem of assimilation. It is a concern throughout Judaism that Jews have fallen into non-observance through assimilation and intermarriage. The intermarriage problem is largely reflective of Jews living in communities filled with gentiles. Long, long, long before we touch the subject of marriage, we MJ's must address the fact that our synagogues usually have far more gentiles than Jews (mine is an exception to the norm). To stop assimilation, Jews must be part of Jewish community. You cannot have Jewish community if 95% of the congregation is gentile.

Again, are the voices of the rabbis in UMJC unanimous on this? Are voices of rabbis ever unanimous on anything?

Are those in UMJC bothered by gentiles or Jews leaving for rabbinical Judaism? It depends WHO in UMJC you talk to. There are those who would believe you have loose your salvation, so don't do it! There are those who believe you would still belong to G-d, and understand why you are pulled in that direction, but feel sad because they believe you will leave a richer truth, and can't we talk about this? And there are those who will say something along the lines of you have to believe what you think to be true, and that if you leave you go to good people who love and serve HaShem night and day.

And quite honestly, Rabbi, the issue of gentiles leaving MJ for rabbinical judaism has never come up in ANY of the conversations I've had. It doesn't seem to be an issue of concern. Maybe no one on a general level has noticed the statistics. So my answer to you is: No, I repeat, I don't think fear of gentile conversions is the reason for offering conversion.

One of the reasons I'm so confident of this is: THEY MAKE THE CONVERSION PROCESS SO HARD!

I would wager, though, that the cases AS INDIVIDUALS were discusses by the Rabbinical Council, because it would have been fodder in the argument over whether or not there is such a thing as a proselyte. The argument WOULD have been made that because UMJC wrongly did not offer conversion to those rightly seeking to convert, those the Orthodox would describe as those with Jewish souls, they would by their very nature seek conversion elsewhere. The behavior of this group, their very persistence to conversion, as evidence that the ger tzedek really DOES exist, and that the UMJC has been wrong in not allowing their conversion -- THAT is the argument I can see taking place.

Not fear. Responsibility.

Gentile MJ's converting to rabbinical Judaism certainly doesn't bother me one iota. I would be in the latter group of the three above. Any gentile who converts to Orthodox Judaism, whether they were of Yeshua-faith before or not, is in a very, very good place. I wonder why. I wonder how. But I'm not concerned about their soul in the slightest.

 

[Steve Petersen]

This conversion phenomenon is really intersting to me. The early Protestant movement placed a much greater emphasis on the OT than was prevalent in the Christian world as a whole. This created a greater identification with Israel and the Law than had been seen in nearly 1600 years prior. The Protestants also opened Pandora's box in questioning Church authority (evidenced by the myriads of Protestan denominations.) This questioning authority made it possible to study your way right out of Christianity. But it also made it possible to re-evaluate traditional teaching about the NT in the light of culture and history. It became abundantly clear in post-Holocaust Christianity that Jesus was a Jew and practiced Judaism. This is a profound factor when examining people's interest in MJism and ultimately in their conversion to Judaism. But at some point those people MUST slide off the razor's edge and decide to deny that Yeshua was/is both ben Joseph and ben David. Yeshua made if very clear that this is the worst thing a believer can do:

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 

[GeratTzedek]

I didn't start this thread. I simply answered a question that I was personally asked in the OP. I really don't understand why I'm being asked questions about internal issues within Messianic Judaism. I do my best to avoid such threads and when you guys get me involved this kind of thing, I really can't respond in full as the rules of this forum require me to tread lightly on such matters.

I'm not trying to get you into trouble. You had asked Steve a question about why anyone would tell him "not to worship like a Jew." So I decided to give you the rationale behind why Hashivenu recommends that it remain normative for gentiles to worship in gentile churches, that MJ could function as necessary Jewish community, to prevent assimilation, to pass on Jewish identity to future generations.

 

[TheRabbi]

And I have no problem answering such questions. I'd just like to have some way of gauging whether I'm skating on thin ice.

I could see the point that one could view my response as disparaging of Messianic Judaism. It wasn't intended to be. I'm trying to know more about why these people are coming to us.

I'm trying to know why certain anti-missionary personalities are telling me that their anti-missionary material that was created for synagogues is mainly being bought and learned by non-Jews.

I'm addressing a phenomena that I encounter on a regular basis here in Israel.

A Rabbi friend of mine who moved down South once told me, "In ----- every conversion I performed was to prevent an intermarriage. Down here, not one has been for the sake of marriage. They have all been spiritual seekers, former Christians."

You can't tell me that something's not going on. I talked to a guy in Jeusalem last week who told me that he was studying at Dallas Theological Seminary when he realized the truth and that they broke his nose and kicked him out for talking to other people about it.

 

[Steve Petersen]

And I have no problem answering such questions. I'd just like to have some way of gauging whether I'm skating on thin ice.

I could see the point that one could view my response as disparaging of Messianic Judaism. It wasn't intended to be. I'm trying to know more about why these people are coming to us.

I'm trying to know why certain anti-missionary personalities are telling me that their anti-missionary material that was created for synagogues is mainly being bought and learned by non-Jews.

I'm addressing a phenomena that I encounter on a regular basis here in Israel.

A Rabbi friend of mine who moved down South once told me, "In ----- every conversion I performed was to prevent an intermarriage. Down here, not one has been for the sake of marriage. They have all been spiritual seekers, former Christians."

You can't tell me that something's not going on. I talked to a guy in Jeusalem last week who told me that he was studying at Dallas Theological Seminary when he realized the truth and that they broke his nose and kicked him out for talking to other people about it.

Maybe this?

Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

 

[Henaynei]

My post was not addressed to you any previous post of yours. It was addressed to the post that preceded it.

At any rate, let's get started on your post.

I was not aware that I had to be invited to the conversation, I thought it was addressed to all Messianics, at least that was the message I got from yto9ur earlier posts.

Again, common sense can go a long way here. The stuff you posted clearly says that the UMJC is here to build and foster MJism. That means that the UMJC stands for the core beliefs of MJism. I find it incredible that you would take issue with the idea that your scriptures give you a mandate to preach the Gospel to all flesh.

The "core beliefs" of MJism vary widely.

1:8

But you will receive power when the Ruach HaKodesh comes upon you; you will be my witnesses both in Yerushalayim and in all Y'hudah and Shomron, indeed to the ends of the earth!"

These instructions were given to Jews, not Gentiles, and they were to be witnesses, not street corner preachers. They were to bring the Message of G-d to the Goyim, something that has *always* been the job and calling of the Jews.
There are a significant number of M Jews who do not believe that it is necessary to witness the presence, power and will of HaShem to Torah observant Jews because they already have a salvific relationship with HaShem. Jews that have turned away from G-d, those who are assimulated, even those in Churches.... yes. But then the Chabad preach/witness to them as well. We want to turn these back toward G-d, as do the Chabad.

"Primarily" isn't usually indicative of all, so I'm at a loss as to why you'd feel a need to mount a rebuttal. I could have been a bit more honest and said "The overwhelming majority when the movement is taken as a whole".

Primarily means majority, for the most part, chiefly, mainly, principally. Thus in this context I think I responded to the intent and context of your statement. I did/do not agree with where you were headed with this. You were building an A+B+C+D=E argument. Therefore the context of the comments you made that those gentiles in B "who find their way into it and soon want to participate fully and learn more" where "a good deal of these Gentiles leave the movement for normative Judaism and renounce their faith in Jesus" would suggest that in A your use of primarily meant "for the most part or the majority. I do not see, neither have you presented any data to show this is so. All you have are various statements that you have made that are broad, built on your personal view (and your statement that you know other rabbis with the same report) and claim that "My reality is what I and my community see in front of our eyes. We're reaping from fields that we did not sow. Even the Conservative movement is seeing a spike in conversions all along the Bible belt and that spike is commensurate with the growth of messianic congregations. Do you think the Hindus and Daoists are seeing the same kind of spike in converts in the Bible belt?"

I've been in the movement over 20 years. I have known many Messianic *Jews* who are in leadership in the MJAA and the UMJC and the IFMJ. Their experiences vary rather much from your "reality."

BTW - just so you know, the majority of congregations that call themnselves Messianic would not be so described by the majority of Jewish Messianics. They are what has not infrequently been called "churches with kippahs." They have little to commend them as Messianic other than their self description as such.

Again, you rebut statements I haven't made. "A good deal" is not generally taken to mean "the majority", so I don't know why you felt a need to say so.

Indeed? You said "a good deal"; I said "a few, but not a majority." I'm not sure of the general semantics that quantitatively apply but given your earlier use of "primarily" in this discussion, a word that does mean "majority" it seems to me that "a good deal" could mean "quite a few" to a "great many." My specific comment was "a few, not a majority" is was a quantitative statement meant to add more clarification in the midst of a plethora of broad loose generalities on your part that consistently gave the impression of "majority."

Whether you see it or not is immaterial. It's a fact. It's a fact that I see every day. While you're not seeing it, we're reaping the benefits of it.

You saying it does not make it so, it does not make your claims or assertions facts.

I have seen numerous conversions of Messianic gentiles to mainstream Judaism in the last 20+ years, even Baptist pastors of 20 years standing who came through MJism and out into mainstream Judaism. However, I have known thousands of Messianic gentiles and I have seen only a handful who have done this. Less than a hundred. But then the congregations we tend to attend are lead by Jewish Messianics and have a much stronger foundation of Torah observance than some other “Messianic” congregations. We don’t tend to have a great deal of folks with the kronkhite…. They usually are not drawn to such congregations except to try to “correct” our “legalism” and don’t tend to stay long when they find out we love our freedom to follow the Law with joy.

Even in this forum there have not been more than 5 such who have left Messiah for mainstream Judaism in the last 4 years. And most of those had not been in MJsim for a year. In most cases MJsim is not that for which they were looking, so they went elsewhere.

Really? Let's just take a wild guess. Where do you think the greater number of converts to Judaism are coming from in America? Is it the Baptists, the Catholics, The Lutherans? Or could it be the Messianic Jewish movement? You tell me.

I explained this in my earlier post

Those who came [in to this movement] seeking a more ancient, esoteric and ethnically Jewish experience are largely the ones claiming their presence here makes them Jewish, and bring dishonor on MJism in the eye of Jews both in and outside the movement. They also are prone to the disease of "offense," thinking of themselves as second class citizens and that those around them (the Jews in this movement) see them the same way when it is suggested that they not participate in the distinctly Jewish activities of the synagogue.

The[se] others are those most often who end up going off into non-MJism [mainstream Judaism], for the very reasons that got them into MJism in the first place. It is just another form to replacement doctrine - they *have* to be Jewish, one way or another. It is actually Jewish envy as pointed out by Theodore Isaac Rubin in his book, Anti-Semitism: A Disease of the Mind: A Psychiatrist Explores the Psychodynamics of a Symbol Sickness.

thus they already had a spiritual kronkhite already .... it is that sickness that brought them into MJsim in the first place. MJsim is NOT the place where they got the sickness.

My reality is what I and my community see in front of our eyes. We're reaping from fields that we did not sow. Even the Conservative movement is seeing a spike in conversions all along the Bible belt and that spike is commensurate with the growth of messianic congregations. Do you think the Hindus and Daoists are seeing the same kind of spike in converts in the Bible belt?

The other denominations you mentioned earlier as *highly unlikely* to see any of their congregation convert to Judaism. There are two reasons for this:
1) They are losing their gentile numbers, not to Judaism, but to Messianic Judaism. This is the reason the background of those your community sees may often report that they were Messianics. The vast majority of gentile Messianics came out of churches, usually evangelical or charismatic but not always
2) Those with what I have termed here "the sickness" are those who are most likely to leave those denominations when MJism hits their radar. They come thinking joining us will make them Jewish. Often these are folks who were known in the Christian community as "church hoppers" [that is, folks known for going from one church to another when they got to be well enough known by folks in a given congregation to either require accountability or responsibility from these folk, then they'd leave and find a "new" congregation, starting their cycle over again - those in MJism in leadership have known and seen this for years]

I didn't say masses of Christians were converting to Judaism. But I am saying that Mjism, whether it is at fault or not, is putting out more Gentile converts to Judaism than Jewish converts to Jesus.

Well of course, there are a great deal more gentiles than there are Jews, of any stripe. So what's the issue here? Additionally even to the extent that it is happening in the numbers you suggest, I've explained above why often this is happening at all.

I'm sure it's not a pleasant fact, but it is indeed a fact.

Again, you saying it is a fact does not make it one.

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything. I'm simply stating facts

No, you are making statements and claiming they are fact. That is something very different.

and lest you think I'm using some carefully crafted subterfuge against the kingdom of your Messiah, I would remind you that most of what I put forth in my original reply was corroborated by several faithful, Bible believing Messianics on this very forum.

several, not many and not even a majority of the MJs on this forum. A majority of respondents to this thread, *maybe* but I'm not sure that is even so.

I didn't start this thread.

granted, but it was started to answer your question

I simply answered a question that I was personally asked in the OP. I really don't understand why I'm being asked questions about internal issues within Messianic Judaism. I do my best to avoid such threads and when you guys get me involved this kind of thing, I really can't respond in full as the rules of this forum require me to tread lightly on such matters.

The OP stated she was opening a thread to answer one of you questions.

Rabbi,

You were asking Steve who was telling him not to worship like a Jew. His reply was an exaggeration about UMJC, but true enough.

The questions in the OP were largely obviously rhetorical - granted some were not:

Let's say a very nice Christian family decided to come to your local Orthodox synagogue there in Jerusalem. You are polite and even friendly, although it makes you feel a little odd. Eventually the timing is right and you get around to asking them what draws them to your synagogue. And the wife says, "Well, we just like the Jewish people, and we want to worship on Saturday, because Jesus did. What are you going to do? what would most in your congregation do? What do you think the leadership of your congregation would do?

and this one might be said to not be rhetorical, although I see it as such..

It's the second step that is much more hotly debated. UMJC is very divided over it: Hashivenu is very strong in this new direction, but there are still many congregations of the old way of thinking. Basically, Hashivenu suggests that we should see within MJ synagogues what we would see in any synagogue: gentiles, but not lots and lots of gentiles. Not synagogues run by gentiles with a few token Jews. How could it be a Messianic JEWISH congregation without Jews?

so how is your turn of the conversation about MJs converting to Judaism part of answering either of these questions. If there is a clear connection I missed it and I'm truly sorry.

If we make it clear from the first that like the rest of Judaism we in no way consider an individual Jewish because they self-identify themselves as Jewish based on their "Jewish heart" or on the depth of their "Jewish practice" or because they love the Jewish Messiah, we will eventually see *much less* of the numbers of those coming into our congregations who have the opinion that they can call themselves Jewish and be accepted AS Jewish by MJs. Because of the infant roots of this most contemporary rising of MJism and major mistakes made because of those roots... we have much correcting and redirecting that needs to be done for MJism to mature and survive. While you will find *very* few Messianic gentiles who will agree with this you *will* find a majority of Messianic *Jews* who have known this in their heart of hearts for a very long time, but were very hesitant to say so - after all the charge of being "elitist" and "exclusionary" that have been leveled at the Jewish community because they are the Chosen People are not exclusively the burden of mainstream Judaism. In MJism it is an ever present and very real concern, among the Jews. Why? Because they are "related" to that great and prolific source of anti-Semitism, the Church. And as any history and community aware Jewish person knows, your "friends" can turn into your bloody enemies at the slightest perceived or imagined slight or offense.

Great, let's see how well it works.

I pray we shall. For all our sakes!


b'Shalom v'Shavua Tov
Henaynei

 

[TheRabbi]

I was not aware that I had to be invited to the conversation, I thought it was addressed to all Messianics, at least that was the message I got from yto9ur earlier posts.

It was addressed to Ger Tzedek. I wasn't trying to deny you permisssion to respond. I was ensuring that you didn't mistake anything I said to Ger as being directed at you.

Listen, I really don't want to play the numbers game with you. Because when people want to show the success of MJism, they shlep out these inflated numbers of MJ congregations. When confronted with the lack of Jews in MJism, suddenly the only real MJ congregations are the ones with lots of Jews (and even then, they play fast and loose with the term Jew).