To spank or not to spank please vote

ebia · Jul 22, 2006

armyman_83 said:
No I don't take it literally, I use a paddle.

Then you are abusing your child.

armyman_83 · Jul 22, 2006

Well I was spanked as a child and have turned out just fine.

When I do have kids, I will paddle/spank, etc.

I am not psycho because I was paddled, I would say it has made me better.

armyman_83 · Jul 22, 2006

"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." Pro. 23:13-14

ebia · Jul 22, 2006

armyman_83 said:
Well I was spanked as a child and have turned out just fine.

Which proves what - that children are resilient enough to survive abuse.

When I do have kids, I will paddle/spank, etc.

I am not psycho because I was paddled, I would say it has made me better.

And I would say it clearly hasn't, since it has taught you that it's ok to hit defenseless children.

ebia · Jul 22, 2006

armyman_83 said:
"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." Pro. 23:13-14

Do you follow this one too?

Christ said:
Anyone who curses his father and mother shall be put to death.

Many of the worst attrocities ever committed in the western world have been justified from the bible.

Perhaps you would like to implement Proverbs 19:25 with your paddle to win the debate: "Strike a scoffer, and the simple will learn prudence", but I guess that's a bit hard over the net.

armyman_83 · Jul 22, 2006

1. It proves that spanking your child is not abuse. I was spanked and turned out well. Thus spanking is productive, and far from abuse.

2. What evidence do you have to say that I am an abusive person because I believe that an acceptable form of discipline should be used to correct children? Spanking is not abuse, you can not prove it, nor can I prove that it is not abuse. But the tie goes to the defender. Spanking has been practiced much longer than non-spanking(for lack of a better word) has.

3. It reinstates Spare the rod, spoil the child. So yes.

4. Like throwing out tax collators from the temple?
Well I am sorry I hope your Bible doesnt have the Old Testament in it because you might be surprised at what God has commanded.

dlamberth · Jul 22, 2006

armyman_83 said:
Well I was spanked as a child and have turned out just fine.

When I do have kids, I will paddle/spank, etc.

I am not psycho because I was paddled, I would say it has made me better.

I was spanked as a child as well. I think I also turned out mostly fine. The last spanking I received from my father did leave a mental scar though. He spanked to hard and left welts on my butt....and I don't think I deserved the spanking. He spanked out of anger. Here, some 45 years later I still remember it. But I turned out OK...mostly OK that is. Than when I had children I did as I was taught and spanked them as well. And I clearly remember spanking them with anger just as my dad did to me. Now as a grandparent, I wish I had not spanked my children. I learned that with a firm line on boundaries, that children do not need spanking. And if it gets to where a parent gets to that point, there are other ways to deal with miss-behaving children other than spanking.

.

ebia · Jul 22, 2006

armyman_83 said:
1. It proves that spanking your child is not abuse. I was spanked and turned out well. Thus spanking is productive, and far from abuse.

That simply doesn't follow. I know someone who was sexually abused and still turned out ok - that doesn't prove that the sexual abuse was productive, just that children can survive abuse.

2. What evidence do you have to say that I am an abusive person because I believe that an acceptable form of discipline should be used to correct children? Spanking is not abuse, you can not prove it, nor can I prove that it is not abuse. But the tie goes to the defender. Spanking has been practiced much longer than non-spanking(for lack of a better word) has.

What I did was to demolish your argument, which was similar circular reasoning.

3. It reinstates Spare the rod, spoil the child. So yes.

What does? Proverbs 19:25? No - it invites you to hit me for disagreeign with you.

4. Like throwing out tax collators from the temple?
Well I am sorry I hope your Bible doesnt have the Old Testament in it because you might be surprised at what God has commanded.

So you will kill your children if they curse you? And you think that's ok? People who take OT commands out of their context and apply them at face value today are very, very dangerous.

lostchildhood · Jul 22, 2006

ccgr said:
My husband is launching a site for dads and we're trying to get the forums going, can you cast your vote on whether or not to spank a child is okay? the link to the thread is

http://www.notmrmom.com/forums/nfphpbb/viewtopic.php?t=6

i belive spanking is wrong it sends the kids wrong messags. i was abused growing up, i will never forget it. There is far better ways to teach your chilren then to smack them.

armyman_83 · Jul 22, 2006

ebia said:
[/color]
That simply doesn't follow. I know someone who was sexually abused and still turned out ok - that doesn't prove that the sexual abuse was productive, just that children can survive abuse.

Look below. (the part about abuse)

ebia said:
[/color]What I did was to demolish your argument, which was similar circular reasoning.

No, you fail to show that spanking (not excissive beatings, but spankings) are abuse. I have History, and the Bible on my side. But you must be wiser than History and the Bible.

ebia said:
[/color]What does? Proverbs 19:25? No - it invites you to hit me for disagreeign with you.

This was a misunderstanding, I was posting about the verse I posted.
I did fail to reply to your question about Pro.19:25 Im sorry. My answer now is: While I wouldn't care if it was instated, I can not follow it now (as it opposes the law of my nation).

ebia said:
[/color]So you will kill your children if they curse you? And you think that's ok? People who take OT commands out of their context and apply them at face value today are very, very dangerous.

Again, I cannot kill my Children for cursing me. 1. I do not have children. 2. It is agains the law of my country.

People who do not use History(or the Bible OT and NT) to better society are unjust and foolish.

£amb · Jul 22, 2006

armyman_83 said:
No I don't take it literally, I use a paddle.

You got one too....

I spanked the kids a couple of times with the paddle. They have not repeated the same thing twice. My oldest is strong-willed. I'm talking in your face defiance. No matter the amounts of talking, time-outs, and distractions, did not work on him. It took a couple of spankings and the issue was not an issue no more. I guess people assume that people who spank do it 24/7 and for every correction. As I said in an earlier post, many times I don't have to spank. Actually the spanking is very minimal. I can talk or take a privilege away and it corrects the problem.

seebs · Jul 22, 2006

Might I make a request?

This is an issue on which many people have powerful experiences.

The problem is that a word like "abuse" has pretty powerful connotations, and if you've got someone who dearly loves his kids, and uses corporal punishment, and you call it "abuse", then you are attacking something that's pretty close to his sense of identity.

I don't think that's gonna communicate.

I think it's probably the case that much corporal punishment is inappropriate, even harmful. But I don't like calling it "abuse" across the board, because abuse has connotations that I don't think are fair in some cases, perhaps even many.

I have certainly seen people whose spankings were abuse; they were violence undertaken out of anger to try to destroy the child's independance and autonomy. I have also seen spankings that I thought were carefully considered and non-abusive.

I personally believe that, even then, violence in a parent/child relationship is not the best path. But I feel that using words like "abuse" is harming communication more than it's helping.

ebia · Jul 23, 2006

armyman_83 said:
No, you fail to show that spanking (not excissive beatings, but spankings) are abuse.

I didn't try.
The point of my comment was that if you start with the assumption that hitting children is wrong, then there was harm in your having been hit, in that it leads you to believe it's ok. On the other hand, if you start from the assumption that hitting children is wrong then it appears no harm has been done to you. Both are circular reasoning.

I have History, and the Bible on my side. But you must be wiser than History and the Bible.

The fact that something has always been done doesn't make it ok. In fact you don't have the bible on your side, since you (admittedly) don't use a rod. As soon as you free up the interpretation you open the possibility that corporal punishment is not ok.

This was a misunderstanding, I was posting about the verse I posted.

Ok.

I did fail to reply to your question about Pro.19:25 Im sorry. My answer now is: While I wouldn't care if it was instated, I can not follow it now (as it opposes the law of my nation).

So, if the law of your nation can remove your right to hit me, it can remove the right to hit your children. If the law of your nation did allow you to hit me for arguing, would you think it biblically commended?

Again, I cannot kill my Children for cursing me. 1. I do not have children. 2. It is agains the law of my country.

As above. You are evading the biblical question by hiding behind national law.

People who do not use History(or the Bible OT and NT) to better society are unjust and foolish.

So the people who ban you from hitting me, and ban people from killing their children, are unjust and foolish for doing so?

Lilly of the Valley · Jul 23, 2006

Spanking a kid to the point of extreme pain or bruises is abuse...spanking the kid in such away that no harm is done to them physically or emotionally isn't abuse. There is a difference.

PETE_ · Jul 23, 2006

Seebs makes a good point about defining abuse. Just saying that inflicting pain on the child is abuse is way to general. We parents have to bring pain on our children throughout their lives. It must be done for their own benefit, and is not the often not the primary option. A child's trip to a doctor or dentist could seem to be cruelty until the methods and motives were explained.

Rae · Jul 23, 2006

Not everyone holds the same view.

--That is true. But I do believe intentionally hitting a child is never justifiable. It is not discipline, but it is abuse. And attempts to justify child abuse anger me.

quatona · Jul 23, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
Spanking a kid to the point of extreme pain or bruises is abuse...spanking the kid in such away that no harm is done to them physically or emotionally isn't abuse. There is a difference.

Sure there is a difference in degree. Whether there is harm done or not by spanking is the very topic of this thread and has not been agreed upon yet. I personally think spanking does harm.
What we call it is not really that important in the end of the day.

Robinsegg · Jul 23, 2006

Rae said:
--That is true. But I do believe intentionally hitting a child is never justifiable. It is not discipline, but it is abuse. And attempts to justify child abuse anger me.

I once worked at a daycare. Everything I did to give children discipline was met with disapproval. Mind you, I never struck a child there (I don't strike other people's children, as I'm not the parent). Even expecting a child to sit through their time out (stopping the clock or restarting it when they got up and ran around) was considered child abuse. I finally asked what their definition of child abuse was. The answer I got was "Well, anything that makes them mind." That disturbed me.

Okay, so there are different ideas about what abuse is. I have difficulty wnating to support "anti-child abuse" organizations, because I don't know their definition of child abuse. Keeping a sugar cookie from a child isn't abuse (they called it "depriving a child of food"), but some view it as such. I view any physical punishment that leaves a mark, that causes persistent harm, or that is done in anger abuse. (I do send my child to his/her room until I can calm down before deciding what discipline is needed if I'm angry.)

Rachel

quatona · Jul 23, 2006

Robinsegg said:
(I do send my child to his/her room until I can calm down before deciding what discipline is needed if I'm angry.)

And which way of disciplining you for your anger do your children generally prefer?

DivineRAiN · Jul 23, 2006

ebia: Do you beat your child with a rod?

I think the rod was more symbolic to how a sheep herder uses a rod to guide the sheep? You don't use an actual rod on yer kids.

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