To Seem, Rather Than To Be? (Trans Ideology)

[TLK Valentine]

I'm nothing if not magnanimous....humble too.

I dunno... I know a guy who's a lot more humble than you... just sayin'

 

[TLK Valentine]

And did trans people tell you this?

Because the trans people I know want to stop being killed. They want people to use the correct pronouns.

I have no idea where you are getting this alarmist nonsense from.

When the censors and book banners are the ones warning against things like "indoctrination," you know you're thorough the looking glass.

They're not alarmed; they're jealous.

 

[Kylie]

Yeah.

So a trans person came to you and said, "Hey, our real plan is to socially engineering schoolchildren, get rid of all spaces for women, get kids to say no to anything they don't like, and control what everyone says."

Sure.

They get murdered about as much as asian people do. That's what I figured out last time I did the math on it.

And what about suicide?

If you believe that something else is going on....that trans people are murdered at higher than normal rates....let's see the evidence.

Transgender people over four times more likely than cisgender people to be victims of violent crime

If I posted a clip of a trans activist proudly admitting to the goal of eliminating women's spaces....would you agree that you don't know what you're supporting?

Oh, come on. You really think that such a person is going to be speaking for ALL trans people?

You're just trolling now.

 

[ottawak]

You don't really think this is about respect....do you?

Trans activists aren't demanding respect. They want to socially engineer schoolchildren, eliminate women's spaces, and give children the right to consent, and control speech.

That's a bit more than "please respect me"

Where did you get that? From the Internationall Trans Association website?

 

[didactics]

Sorry, @Kylie Maybe that article wasn't wrong about what he reported on--a boy with a female brain. But I was quick to throw it aside because I wasn't sure how accurate that statement was. I thought maybe it was female-like, but not entirely in every way. I'm skeptical of it and I wasn't sure if you had better information on it. The story in the article, The 6 Most Common Biological Sexes in Humans

The Case of Riley Grant
I want better information if you're trying to persuade me to believe that there are more than two sexes.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I dunno... I know a guy who's a lot more humble than you... just sayin'

Lol

 

[Ana the Ist]

Where did you get that? From the Internationall Trans Association website?

Which part?

 

[Ana the Ist]

So a trans person came to you and said, "Hey, our real plan is to socially engineering schoolchildren, get rid of all spaces for women, get kids to say no to anything they don't like, and control what everyone says."

Let's start with the easy one...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...mplaint-against-3-middle-school-students.html

I can't imagine what it would be like to be so ignorant as to not see this sort of thing coming....but I'm glad I'm not one of those people. These kids refused to use "preferred pronouns"....as they have every right to do.

Now, as for indoctrination and social engineering....regardless of whether the person I've discussed it with is trans or not....the reason why they support it has universally been to influence the child's beliefs towards that of acceptance and a generally positive view of trans and gay people. That's the reason universally given for promoting this stuff in public schools at very young ages.

If you disagree with my assessment above....just explain why. I can provide examples, but I can't imagine that you disagree on this.

And what about suicide?

What about it?

Transgender people over four times more likely than cisgender people to be victims of violent crime

Is this murder? Or all violent crime?

Oh, come on. You really think that such a person is going to be speaking for ALL trans people?

You're just trolling now.

No....I know these activists don't speak for the entire community. The problem is...

1. They claim to speak for the entire community.
2. The community and the left at large do not openly disagree with them for fear of being labeled a bigot or right wing.


They may be a minority in the community, but they are driving the agenda of that community and the left in general.

 

[didactics]

No.

You said there was no medical documentation about gender dysphoria.

I gave you a link to medical documentation about gender dysphoria.

Your claim that there is no such documentation is therefore wrong.

Maybe?

In any case, it should not require an understanding of how and why some people end up being trans in order for us to treat them with respect.

Joshua Kennon is no medical expert. The source he linked to this boy Riley Grant took me to ABC News, and it made absolutely no mention that this boy indeed had a female brain. So I think it is crucial to know if there is any documentation on this. Because if this story is not even accurate a little bit, then his theory that more than two sexes exist does not follow.

 

[didactics]

Since the Soul Cannot Be Seen, How Can We Know if it's Real? Or the Conscience?

 

[didactics]

However, I don’t think Joshua Kennon is wrong on this:



“We know from advances in neuroscience the past few decades that the differences between male and female brains are not insignificant – it influences everything from color perception to taste, scent, emotional reaction, empathy levels, rationality levels, pain tolerance, vocal inflection, and a host of many other factors. This is easy to see on an MRI – male and female brains respond differently to different stimuli. The largest study documenting the extent of the differences between male and female brains was done by Dr. Daniel Amen, who analyzed 26,000 people and found that the male brain has heightened activity in regions “associated with visual perception, tracking objects through space, and form recognition” and are 8% to 10% larger in mass size, while the female brain shows more overall activity, as well as increased blood flow in 112 out of 128 brain regions.”



I did a quick google search and came up with this from PubMed:



“certain aspects of brain circuitry can be viewed as secondary sexual characteristics.”

 

[didactics]

Riley Children's Health - Riley patient now cancer free and excited to return to school | Facebook

Can anyone confirm to me who the real Riley Grant is? The reason I ask is because Joshua Kennon presents the story completely different. Did I even click on a link that led me to the same Grant that Kennon discussed?

Never mind, this google search must have led me to an unrelated story. This only leads me to believe that what Kennon was claiming was an outright fallacy, but who knows for sure--that a male can end up with a female brain that is.

 

[PloverWing]

However, I don’t think Joshua Kennon is wrong on this:

“We know from advances in neuroscience the past few decades that the differences between male and female brains are not insignificant – it influences everything from color perception to taste, scent, emotional reaction, empathy levels, rationality levels, pain tolerance, vocal inflection, and a host of many other factors. This is easy to see on an MRI – male and female brains respond differently to different stimuli. The largest study documenting the extent of the differences between male and female brains was done by Dr. Daniel Amen, who analyzed 26,000 people and found that the male brain has heightened activity in regions “associated with visual perception, tracking objects through space, and form recognition” and are 8% to 10% larger in mass size, while the female brain shows more overall activity, as well as increased blood flow in 112 out of 128 brain regions.”

I did a quick google search and came up with this from PubMed:

“certain aspects of brain circuitry can be viewed as secondary sexual characteristics.”

Standard caution here: Saying "Men are different from women in trait X" can mean any of these:

Graph A is for traits that are truly different between the sexes; for example, if we're looking at bodily sex (not gender) and we're asking about genitalia, the picture is something like A. There's a little area in the middle where people are intersex, or have had surgery, etc., but it mostly splits into two groups.

But many traits -- especially traits related to brain, mind, emotions, skills, or identity -- are more like B or C. Saying "men are different from women in trait T" might mean only that the medians are different, with a significant overlap in the range of values.

It would be interesting to look at a study focusing on transgender and nonbinary people, to see if they have lots of traits that are in that middle purple zone. I don't know if that study has been done.

The graph comes from the PubMed article you linked to: Ball et al, "Is it useful to view the brain as a secondary sexual characteristic?", Neuroscience and Behavioral Reviews 46 (2014), 628-638. It's behind a paywall, but I was able to access it through my university's library.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Standard caution here: Saying "Men are different from women in trait X" can mean any of these:

View attachment 316037

Graph A is for traits that are truly different between the sexes; for example, if we're looking at bodily sex (not gender) and we're asking about genitalia, the picture is something like A. There's a little area in the middle where people are intersex, or have had surgery, etc., but it mostly splits into two groups.

But many traits -- especially traits related to brain, mind, emotions, skills, or identity -- are more like B or C. Saying "men are different from women in trait T" might mean only that the medians are different, with a significant overlap in the range of values.

It would be interesting to look at a study focusing on transgender and nonbinary people, to see if they have lots of traits that are in that middle purple zone. I don't know if that study has been done.

The graph comes from the PubMed article you linked to: Ball et al, "Is it useful to view the brain as a secondary sexual characteristic?", Neuroscience and Behavioral Reviews 46 (2014), 628-638. It's behind a paywall, but I was able to access it through my university's library.

If they were in the overlap zone....I'd find it difficult to understand how they would identify as the opposite sex.

I'm inclined to think a mtf trans person has traits on the tail end....10% or so...of women.

 

[Kylie]

Let's start with the easy one...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...mplaint-against-3-middle-school-students.html

I can't imagine what it would be like to be so ignorant as to not see this sort of thing coming....but I'm glad I'm not one of those people. These kids refused to use "preferred pronouns"....as they have every right to do.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that being constantly misgendered is harmful? Not to mention just plain rude?

The evidence is clear that refusing to use their correct pronouns leads to a higher risk of suicide. Research shows the risk of misgendering transgender youth - Child Trends

Now, as for indoctrination and social engineering....regardless of whether the person I've discussed it with is trans or not....the reason why they support it has universally been to influence the child's beliefs towards that of acceptance and a generally positive view of trans and gay people. That's the reason universally given for promoting this stuff in public schools at very young ages.

If you disagree with my assessment above....just explain why. I can provide examples, but I can't imagine that you disagree on this.

Is your entire argument here just, "If we teach kids to respect trans people, they might end up respecting trans people?"

What about it?

Trans people have a very high rate of suicide due to people treating them like garbage. You know, things like misgendering them, that sort of thing.

 

[Kylie]

Joshua Kennon is no medical expert. The source he linked to this boy Riley Grant took me to ABC News, and it made absolutely no mention that this boy indeed had a female brain. So I think it is crucial to know if there is any documentation on this. Because if this story is not even accurate a little bit, then his theory that more than two sexes exist does not follow.

There is evidence to show that the brain of a trans person is closer to that of their identified gender. Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

 

[TLK Valentine]

There is evidence to show that the brain of a trans person is closer to that of their identified gender. Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

Seems like the secondary sex characteristics are leading them towards their preferred gender.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Why is it so hard for you to understand that being constantly misgendered is harmful? Not to mention just plain rude?

I'm not claiming it isn't.

The evidence is clear that refusing to use their correct pronouns leads to a higher risk of suicide. Research shows the risk of misgendering transgender youth - Child Trends

The evidence is clear?

The first study you linked to on that article included less than 129 trans youths. There's no long term follow up. You're acting like there's solid evidence and handing me what amounts to a garbage study with too small a sample size and too short a time period.

Is your entire argument here just, "If we teach kids to respect trans people, they might end up respecting trans people?"

No...I'm pointing out that is literally the definition of indoctrination or social engineering. Take your pick. If you agree that is the reason why you support this then stop pretending to be offended when it's pointed out that you want to indoctrinate children.

Trans people have a very high rate of suicide due to people treating them like garbage. You know, things like misgendering them, that sort of thing.

Lots of people have conditions with high suicide rates.

Severe depression has one of the highest. If a study came out claiming that constantly giving the severely depressed unearned praise and lying to them about how great they are reduced the chances of them committing suicide....would you propose we tell society to do these things?

 

[PloverWing]

If they were in the overlap zone....I'd find it difficult to understand how they would identify as the opposite sex.

I'm inclined to think a mtf trans person has traits on the tail end....10% or so...of women.

On reflection, yes, that's a better hypothesis to investigate.

There is evidence to show that the brain of a trans person is closer to that of their identified gender. Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

Good, I'm glad that some people are researching this.

 

[Kylie]

I'm not claiming it isn't.



The evidence is clear?

The first study you linked to on that article included less than 129 trans youths. There's no long term follow up. You're acting like there's solid evidence and handing me what amounts to a garbage study with too small a sample size and too short a time period.




No...I'm pointing out that is literally the definition of indoctrination or social engineering. Take your pick. If you agree that is the reason why you support this then stop pretending to be offended when it's pointed out that you want to indoctrinate children.




Lots of people have conditions with high suicide rates.

Severe depression has one of the highest. If a study came out claiming that constantly giving the severely depressed unearned praise and lying to them about how great they are reduced the chances of them committing suicide....would you propose we tell society to do these things?

Are you a TERF?