To Seem, Rather Than To Be? (Trans Ideology)

[Moral Orel]

I suppose dolls aren’t always made specifically for girls, but a lot of them are made for girls.

Dolls are for little girls so that they can dream about becoming a parent one day and holding their baby and taking care of it and stuff. Real men don't do that girly stuff like holding their baby in their arms.

I caught my son playing with a Barbie doll so I snatched it away from him! I said, "What are you doing playing with this big-breasted, long-legged, blonde-bombshell?! Here! Play with this muscle rippling blonde-adonis man in a loin cloth instead!" and gave him a He-Man action figure 'cause I don't want him to turn out to be one of those gays!

 

[didactics]

Dolls are for little girls so that they can dream about becoming a parent one day and holding their baby and taking care of it and stuff. Real men don't do that girly stuff like holding their baby in their arms.

I caught my son playing with a Barbie doll so I snatched it away from him! I said, "What are you doing playing with this big-breasted, long-legged, blonde-bombshell?! Here! Play with this muscle rippling blonde-adonis man in a loin cloth instead!" and gave him a He-Man action figure 'cause I don't want him to turn out to be one of those gays!

Good point! I don’t think kids need so many toys anyway when they have over-accentuate features like that. I think it would be better to read classic children’s literature. I saw that Hillsdale College has a course on it. Some of it includes Aesop’s Fables, Beauty and the Beast, The Snow Queen, and The Wind in the Willows.


Here’s what it says, C.S. Lewis argued that “a children’s story which is enjoyed only by children is a bad children’s story.” In fact, the greatest children’s literature not only delights young and old alike but also cultivates an imagination disposed towards right reason and virtuous action.

 

[Paulos23]

I’m not actually a father, I was only supposing what it would be like to parent. I don’t think plushies are bad. About dresses, maybe you don’t see the harm because you don’t hold to a biblical worldview. But I think there used to be a time in history when the secular world frowned upon crossdressing. But you say, “likes dresses when it is hot” to distinguish from crossdressing. I’m not sure what that means. Maybe you mean to let him explore, to use his imagination. I think one good way to help develop the imagination is to read classic stories or fables.

Until you are a parent, you don't know how you will react or treat your child, believe me.

To my son, it was not crossdressing, so why should it be to me? You keep trying to put people in boxes. I have learned that most people do not fit in a box, and that is a good thing.

 

[Ken-1122]

I have learned that most people do not fit in a box, and that is a good thing.

Isn't the whole idea of trans ideology about putting people in boxes and labeling them?

 

[Paulos23]

Isn't the whole idea of trans ideology about putting people in boxes and labeling them?

No. In my experience it is accepting the way people see themselves and not forcing them into a box that you are comfortable with.

I haven't had a problem with people and their personal gender. As long as they let me know and are patient with me when I make a mistake.

Who are we to put them in a box?

 

[Ken-1122]

No. In my experience it is accepting the way people see themselves and not forcing them into a box that you are comfortable with.

I haven't had a problem with people and their personal gender. As long as they let me know and are patient with me when I make a mistake.

Who are we to put them in a box?

Isn't trans ideology about the idea that there are specific roles and preferences for males and different roles and preferences for females? And transgender is when your biology does not match up with your gender roles and preferences?

 

[RDKirk]

Isn't trans ideology about the idea that there are specific roles and preferences for males and different roles and preferences for females? And transgender is when your biology does not match up with your gender roles and preferences?

Shhhhh.

You're not supposed to figure that out.

Transwoman Blair White makes the point, "Of course gender is real. If all I had to do was to change my clothes, I wouldn't have gone through all this surgery."

 

[Moral Orel]

Isn't trans ideology about the idea that there are specific roles and preferences for males and different roles and preferences for females?

Shhhhh.

You're not supposed to figure that out.

What makes you guys think all that junk is "trans ideology"? Didactics is arguing for it in this very thread and he's decidedly against the whole trans movement.

Trans people didn't invent gender roles, that's ridiculous. Things like:

"A real man supports his children"
"Real women have curves"

Gender as a distinct concept from biology happened a long time before trans people started speaking out.

 

[Ken-1122]

What makes you guys think all that junk is "trans ideology"? Didactics is arguing for it in this very thread and he's decidedly against the whole trans movement.

Trans people didn't invent gender roles, that's ridiculous. Things like:

"A real man supports his children"
"Real women have curves"

Gender as a distinct concept from biology happened a long time before trans people started speaking out.

I'm not suggesting trans people invented anything, I'm saying they are using those outdated; often sexist gender roles to explain how or why their bodies do not align with how they feel inside

 

[Moral Orel]

I'm not suggesting trans people invented anything, I'm saying they are using those outdated

It isn't really outdated since it's still prevalent though. It isn't "trans ideology" either, since folks that are against being trans still push it. It's a common theme of society in general. I don't like it either, but pretending it's a trans thing is disingenuous.

 

[didactics]

If I’m entirely honest here, I haven’t actually taken the time to hear the thoughts of respected Christian leaders, to see where they land on the issue of preferred pronouns. So, I’m probably going to do that now. I’ve heard one person by the name of Todd Friel call it, disputable dispensations or adiaphora. So far I’ve personally felt that I should just stick to using their name over and over again. But maybe someone agrees to use their lingo in an effort to get them help (the DSM used to label it as a mental disorder).


I assumed that I know where I land on this issue but I’ve only really heard a perspective from the Daily Wire.


@RDKirk Sorry for wanting to challenge you on this. I didn’t realize it’s such a nuanced debate.

[This is a blog I’m going to read]

On the Use of Preferred Pronouns: A Response to… | Sean McDowell

 

[Ken-1122]

It isn't really outdated since it's still prevalent though.

Just because an idea is outdated does not mean there are not gonna be folks still having those ideas.

It isn't "trans ideology" either, since folks that are against being trans still push it. It's a common theme of society in general. I don't like it either, but pretending it's a trans thing is disingenuous.

I’m not suggesting outdated “gender roles” is something started by trans people, I’m saying they are using it to explain, justify, and promote their ideology. I would think progressives would be the first to dismiss traditional gender roles as something with a tradition of holding women back, promoting toxic masculinity, as well as a patriarchal society and would be eager to label such roles obsolete. Yet such roles appear to be the main contributor of transgender ideology. Am I missing something here?

 

[Moral Orel]

I’m not suggesting outdated “gender roles” is something started by trans people, I’m saying they are using it to explain, justify, and promote their ideology. I would think progressives would be the first to dismiss traditional gender roles as something with a tradition of holding women back, promoting toxic masculinity, as well as a patriarchal society and would be eager to label such roles obsolete. Yet such roles appear to be the main contributor of transgender ideology. Am I missing something here?

You don't have to ascribe to every single gender role ever conceived to be the sort of person who defines "man" and "woman" in ways that don't involve biology. You get that, right? It's quite common, normal in fact, for folks who are decidedly anti-trans to define "man" and "woman" in ways that don't involve biology. How come you don't care about that?

 

[didactics]

You don't have to ascribe to every single gender role ever conceived to be the sort of person who defines "man" and "woman" in ways that don't involve biology. You get that, right? It's quite common, normal in fact, for folks who are decidedly anti-trans to define "man" and "woman" in ways that don't involve biology. How come you don't care about that?

Not to take away from the humor in your point (about toys), but I thought, just because some fathers are misguided in their resolve to encourage masculinity in their sons, doesn’t make it right for fathers to encourage femininity in their sons.

 

[Ken-1122]

You don't have to ascribe to every single gender role ever conceived to be the sort of person who defines "man" and "woman" in ways that don't involve biology. You get that, right? It's quite common, normal in fact, for folks who are decidedly anti-trans to define "man" and "woman" in ways that don't involve biology. How come you don't care about that?

I'm not talking about defining man and woman, I'm talking about the idea that there are certain roles for men, and different roles for women.

 

[Moral Orel]

I'm not talking about defining man and woman, I'm talking about the idea that there are certain roles for men, and different roles for women.

Yeah, that's the same thing. I already posted examples. Any sort of thing that can be phrased:

"X is what women do"
"Y is what men do"

That's gender roles, and that's defining what it is to be a man or woman. Mostly everyone says stuff just like that all the time.

 

[Ken-1122]

Yeah, that's the same thing. I already posted examples. Any sort of thing that can be phrased:

"X is what women do"
"Y is what men do"

That's gender roles, and that's defining what it is to be a man or woman. Mostly everyone says stuff just like that all the time.

And you sign off on that? Let me guess; women don’t like STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, or Math) type careers; that kinds stuff is for Men. Women like Non-STEM careers like Kindergarten teaching, Nursing, & Administrative assistant or Childcare workers; right?(SMH)

 

[Moral Orel]

And you sign off on that?

No, I never said anything of the sort.

I did however already refer to it as "junk" and say "I don't like it either". All I've done is point out what it is and who's saying it.

 

[Ken-1122]

No, I never said anything of the sort.

I did however already refer to it as "junk" and say "I don't like it either". All I've done is point out what it is and who's saying it.

I am quite aware of who says it, I just find it a bit surprising the view progressives are taking on this issue. Progressives are usually the ones who want to lift gender restrictions and proclaim “a woman can do anything a man can do” or you can be anything you want to be, which flies in the face of gender roles and restrictions.

 

[Moral Orel]

I am quite aware of who says it

Then why are you calling it "trans ideology"?

I just find it a bit surprising the view progressives are taking on this issue. Progressives are usually the ones who want to lift gender restrictions and proclaim “a woman can do anything a man can do” or you can be anything you want to be, which flies in the face of gender roles and restrictions.

Because not all of it is restrictive or negative. A lot of it isn't even "Girls can't Y". A lot of it (maybe most of it) is just "Girls like X, boys like Y" stuff. But that's still putting attributes that have nothing to do with biology onto gender.

So this indefinable, subjective view of what makes someone a "man" or "woman" was made up way before trans people had anything to do with it, and mostly everyone is still pushing it to some degree.