To Neal, VOW, and others =)

[Hoonbaba]

Hi guys,

I just wanted to thank you all for those prayers.  God's really been doing wonderful things for me lately.  I'm still sinful but God's revealing my sinfulness and ultimately it's drawing me much closer to Him! 

Also, I have a quick question:  Can a protestant go to confession?  Just curious =)

God bless!

-Jason

 

[Wolseley]

You can go and talk to the priest, but he cannot give you sacramental absolution if you are not a Catholic.

 

[Hoonbaba]

Hi Wols,

Why can't a priest do that?  Just curious.

God bless!

-Jason

 

[Wolseley]

Because he has no authority to do so over a person who is not Catholic. A non-Catholic cannot legitimately receive any Catholic sacrament, whether it be Confession, Holy Communion, Holy Orders, Confirmation, Extreme Unction, or Matrimony. The Protestant may recieve the equivalent of these things which his specific church offers, but those equivalents are not in the form of a Catholic sacrament, and the Protestant will have to go to his own church to get them. The only way a Protestant can legitimately have access to Catholic sacraments is to become a Catholic.

 

[VOW]

To Jason:

That doesn't mean the welcome mat isn't out for you, Hon. By all means, see a priest, tell him what's in your heart. He can counsel you, and he can pray for you.

And while you may not get an OFFICIAL "okey-dokie" from the priest, what he will offer to you is what he basically offers to all of us.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

What would he say to a Catholic that he would not say to the Protestant?

 

[isshinwhat]

Every single word could be the same. His counsel wouldn't have to change at all, but he couldn't say the words of absolution, which are, for example:

"God the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son, has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

God Bless,

Neal

 

[sklippstein]

He might also explain the confession process to u, what to say, what to expect, etc. Something that a non catholic would not quite understand.

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by Wolseley
Because he has no authority to do so over a person who is not Catholic. A non-Catholic cannot legitimately receive any Catholic sacrament, whether it be Confession, Holy Communion, Holy Orders, Confirmation, Extreme Unction, or Matrimony. The Protestant may recieve the equivalent of these things which his specific church offers, but those equivalents are not in the form of a Catholic sacrament, and the Protestant will have to go to his own church to get them. The only way a Protestant can legitimately have access to Catholic sacraments is to become a Catholic.

But what about baptism?  Isn't a protestant baptism considered good enough as a Catholic baptism?

One father pointed out that there's one faith, baptism, and lord (Eph 4:5).  So is baptism the exception?

God bless!

-Jason

 

[VOW]

To Jason:

Basically, Baptism is something which has escaped unscathed through out the Reformation and Counter-Reformation. All Christian Churches baptize with the Triune formula: In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. There is still quibbling on the AMOUNT of water to be used, but the ritual is the same. There is also argument about the necessity of Baptism, whether Baptism is symbolic or required, and the age of the person to be Baptized.

The Catholic Church recognizes six other Sacraments: Communion, Confirmation, Confession, Marriage, Holy Orders, and Anointing of the Sick. The Church teaches that every single Sacrament leaves an indelible mark upon the soul. I personally don't know of any other Christian Church which recognizes seven sacraments. I'm sure the Lutheran Church and the Episcopal Church recognize several of these sacraments, and MOST Protestant Churches recognize at least two: baptism and communion.

What it boils down to, though, is BELIEF. If a non-Catholic Church doesn't even offer the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession), then you cannot compare. And as far as Communion goes, even those Churches which believe in Communion as a Sacrament do not acknowledge the Real Presence such as taught by the Catholic Church.

Confused now?

Believe me, so am I.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by VOW
To Jason:

Basically, Baptism is something which has escaped unscathed through out the Reformation and Counter-Reformation. All Christian Churches baptize with the Triune formula: In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. There is still quibbling on the AMOUNT of water to be used, but the ritual is the same. There is also argument about the necessity of Baptism, whether Baptism is symbolic or required, and the age of the person to be Baptized.

The Catholic Church recognizes six other Sacraments: Communion, Confirmation, Confession, Marriage, Holy Orders, and Anointing of the Sick. The Church teaches that every single Sacrament leaves an indelible mark upon the soul. I personally don't know of any other Christian Church which recognizes seven sacraments. I'm sure the Lutheran Church and the Episcopal Church recognize several of these sacraments, and MOST Protestant Churches recognize at least two: baptism and communion.

What it boils down to, though, is BELIEF. If a non-Catholic Church doesn't even offer the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession), then you cannot compare. And as far as Communion goes, even those Churches which believe in Communion as a Sacrament do not acknowledge the Real Presence such as taught by the Catholic Church.

Confused now?

Believe me, so am I.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

LOL!  Yep I'm confused =)

By the way, what is 'Holy Orders' and Confession?  Or more specifically, what goes on when these sacraments are administered?  I honestly don't know much about these two.

God bless!

-Jason

 

[VOW]

To Jason:

Holy Orders is basically the continuation of the Apostolic Succession. A priest is anointed with oil and has a "hands on" blessing to bestow Holy Orders from a Bishop who acquired HIS Holy Orders in the same way. There is an unbroken line of Succession going back to the Apostles for EACH AND EVERY priest. It is through the Holy Orders that the priest receives the ability to serve in place of Jesus at Mass, to bless the bread and wine and enable them to become the True Body and True Blood of Christ.

Confession, or Reconciliation, is a function of Holy Orders. After the Resurrection, Jesus breathed upon His disciples and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven; whose sins you retain are retained." It is through this Sacrament of Confession that you can reconcile yourself to Christ, and re-establish yourself on the pathway of Salvation towards heaven.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by VOW
To Jason:

Holy Orders is basically the continuation of the Apostolic Succession. A priest is anointed with oil and has a "hands on" blessing to bestow Holy Orders from a Bishop who acquired HIS Holy Orders in the same way. There is an unbroken line of Succession going back to the Apostles for EACH AND EVERY priest. It is through the Holy Orders that the priest receives the ability to serve in place of Jesus at Mass, to bless the bread and wine and enable them to become the True Body and True Blood of Christ.

Confession, or Reconciliation, is a function of Holy Orders. After the Resurrection, Jesus breathed upon His disciples and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven; whose sins you retain are retained." It is through this Sacrament of Confession that you can reconcile yourself to Christ, and re-establish yourself on the pathway of Salvation towards heaven.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Whoops..heh I didn't mean to say 'confession', I was trying to say 'confirmation'

To my knowledge protestant groups do this too.  But I don't know much about it.

Oh by the way, I just thought I'd share this.  One brother explained apostolic succession to me this way:

Christ came to build the Church.  How did he do this?  He appointed apostolic offices, and filled them with 12 men (at first).  He then commanded them to go out and appoint bishops as the overseers of Churches and ordained those new leaders with the "laying on of hands" (1 Tim 4:14).  Then, those appointed bishops were commanded to go and ordain other bishops in exacly the way they themselves were appointed by the first apostles (Titus 1:4-5; 2 Tim 2:2). So you have a continuation of the Church that never ends.   This body of leaders was one united group of bishops, elders, etc., and they formed the leadership authority of the Church.

Now, these leadership positions are actual "offices" that men can aspire to and must be approved  (KJV - 1 Tim 3:1; 1 Tim 3:13; Romans 12:4; Rom 11:13).  Furthermore, the offices continue (as do all offices held by men).  (Even the apostolic office held by Judas was replaced with a new apostle by  succession -- Acts 1:15-20).  Thus, we clearly see that Jesus appointed offices of men that were in turn to appoint other men who were in turn to appoint other men, and so on and so on.  And, all of these overseers were ordained of God by command of Christ -- therefore, these offices have authority from God.  This is the Church's very structure and leadership.  Paul envisioned that this Church was to continue carrying on world without end (Eph 3:21).

Honestly it's so encouraging to hear that the succession is directly from Jesus appointing apostles!  Somehow I never thought about it until you brought it up!

Also, one last thing:  Does the Orthodox Church have the same sacraments?  And what about Anglicans?

God bless!

-Jason

 

[Jenna]

I'm sure the Lutheran Church and the Episcopal Church recognize several of these sacraments, and MOST Protestant Churches recognize at least two: baptism and communion.

As it were, Lutherans do utilize the same sacrements, only differing in reference to whether they are to be CALLED a secrament. Because the definition of sacraments used by Lutherans is different from the Roman Catholic Church, we do not consider all to be sacraments in the strictest sense of the definition given that:

1. It must be instituted by God (which all are)

2. in which God Himself has joined His Word of promise to the visible element (visible element is what is the arguable point that prevents some from being considered sacraments in Lutheran circles.)

3. and by which He offers, gives and seals the forgiveness of sins earned by Christ

It's easy to see that while they all meet at least one of the criteria, not all meet all 3. Of course, this doesn't mean that they are not valid, God-given, and edifying traditions for the Church. More than anything, it is just a bunch of word-play. Silly, isn't it? 

Anywho, that is all I can really contribute to the conversation. lol I just thought it would be an interesting addition, given the reference.

 

[isshinwhat]

Thanks, Jenna.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[isshinwhat]

Does the Orthodox Church have the same sacraments?

Yep.

Whoops..heh I didn't mean to say 'confession', I was trying to say 'confirmation'

From a letter written by John Paul II

Confirmation Seals Us With Gift of the Spirit

1. In the preceding catechesis we reflected on the sacrament of Confirmation as the fulfilment of baptismal grace. We will now examine the salvific value and spiritual effect expressed by the sign of anointing, which indicates the "seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit" (cf. Paul VI, Apostolic Constitution Divinae consortium naturae, 15 August 1971; L'Osservatore Romano English edition, 23 September 1971, p. 4).

Through this anointing, the confirmand fully receives that gift of the Holy Spirit which he had already received in Baptism in an initial and fundamental way. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains, "a seal is a symbol of a person (cf. Gn 38: 18; Song 8: 6), a sign of personal authority (cf. Gn 41: 42), or ownership of an object (cf. Dt 32: 34) ..." (CCC, n. 1295). Jesus himself says that "God the Father set his seal" on him (Jn 6: 27). And so we Christians, having been incorporated into the Body of Christ our Lord by faith and Baptism, are marked by the seal of the Spirit when we receive this anointing. The Apostle Paul explicitly teaches this in speaking to the Christians of Corinth: "It is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has commissioned us; he has put his seal upon us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee" (2 Cor 1: 21-22; cf. Eph 1: 13-14; 4: 30).


Confirmation imprints indelible mark on the soul


2. The seal of the Holy Spirit therefore signifies and brings about the disciple's total belonging to Jesus Christ, his being always at the latter's service in the Church, and at the same time it implies the promise of divine protection in the trials he will have to endure to witness to his faith in the world.

Jesus himself foretold this, shortly before his Passion: "They will deliver you up to councils; and you will be beaten in synagogues; and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear testimony before them.... And when they bring you to trial and deliver you up, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say; but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit" (Mk 13: 9, 11ff.).

A similar promise recurs in Revelation, in a vision that embraces the Church's entire history and sheds light on the dramatic situation which the disciples of Christ are called to face in union with their crucified and risen Lord. They are presented in the evocative image of those whose foreheads have been marked with God's seal (cf. Rv 7: 2-4).

3. By bringing baptismal grace to fulfilment, Confirmation unites us more firmly to Jesus Christ and to his Body, the Church. This sacrament also increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us, to give us "a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross" (CCC, n. 1303; cf. Council of Florence, DS 1319; Second Vatican Council, Lumen gentium, nn. 11-12).

St Ambrose exhorts the confirmed in these vibrant words: "Recall that you have received the spiritual seal, "the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and fortitude, the Spirit of knowledge and piety, the Spirit of the fear of God. Guard what you have received. God the Father has marked you with his sign, Christ the Lord has confirmed you and has placed the Spirit in your hearts as a pledge" (De Mysteriis, 7, 42; PL 16, 402-403).

The gift of the Spirit obliges us to bear witness to Jesus Christ and to God the Father, and ensures that we have the ability and the courage to do so. The Acts of the Apostles tell us clearly that the Spirit was poured out upon the Apostles, so that they would become "witnesses" (Acts 1: 8; cf. Jn 15: 26-27).

St Thomas Aquinas wonderfully summarizes the Church's tradition, saying that through Confirmation all the necessary help is communicated to the baptized so that they can profess publicly and in every circumstance the faith received in Baptism. "The fullness of the Holy Spirit", he explains, "is given ad robur spirituale (for spiritual strength) which is appropriate to adulthood" (Summa Theologiae, III, 72, 2). This maturity is obviously not to be measured by human criteria, but from within the mysterious relationship of each individual to Christ.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[VOW]

To Jenna:

The major difference between Catholic sacraments and Lutheran sacraments is the absence of marriage as a sacrament according to Luther. Luther believed marriage was more of a civil contract than an actual sacrament established by God.

I've often wondered if Luther's interpretation of marriage explains the custom of marriage in Germany today. In Germany, a couple goes through TWO ceremonies, a civil one at the courthouse, and a second one at at church.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by isshinwhat
Yep.



From a letter written by John Paul II



God Bless,

Neal

Hi Neal,

Thanks for that letter! I enjoyed it =)

By the way, I'm a bit curious about two things:

1) Confirmation is a fulfillment of baptism?

2) What literally goes on when someone is receiving this particular sacrament?

God bless!

-Jason

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

I guess really confession really is not a big thing to me. I think of more accountability is important. I confess my sins to God and i am sure you do too. You just also go to a priest as well. But where is confession taught in the Bible?

 

[VOW]

To Quizzler:

I believe it is in James to "confess your sins to one another."

And after the Resurrection, Jesus breathes on the Disciples and says, "Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven, whose sins you retain are retained."


Peace be with you,
~VOW