To atheists: a museum analogy regarding Creationism

Halbhh

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You do understand that your way of thinking only applies to you?

There are about 2 billion people that say they believe in Christ. Ergo, it's going to be a few.

But about finding Him, that's the way to do it according to His instructions to us.
 
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Halbhh

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Which leaves 5.5 that don't. That's a lot more, right?

3.1415 something is possible.

Wrote that quip when for a moment I thought you meant that 5.5 people agree with me about the Higgs Boson situation suggesting the possibility of a Designer, but then saying it's how or why to believe.

About the 5.5 billion you actually mean are not Christian, only a small portion of them have heard the exact teachings of Christ on how to live past some vague idea He wants us to love each other.
But the precise words He used that make quite a difference, such as "in everything" in this teaching --

"So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you, for this sums up the law..."

It's actually a surprising wording to many, because it says it sums up the law. No other law needed if people do this. Interesting in that way. It even means that Christians now have all the 'law' down into one sentence that is quite very simple, and not all Christians even know that, of course.

Also, unlike some other versions of such a rule, it does not say merely "refrain from doing to others what you don't want done to you".

No. It says rather a lot more than only that.

That "in everything" is another zinger (if that's an adequate word).

His actual wording that kinda gets to you, if you find out not a 2nd hand version, but read it yourself in full in the oral accounts written down called the '4 gospels', without a mediator to tell you what it's supposed to be or obscure it with noise or political stuff.

You start to notice it's....actually pretty good stuff. Makes you think. If you read it yourself, your own eyes.
 
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CrystalDragon

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Few in my way of thinking would believe in God as just a science theory in order to explain how things got to be the way they are, even though some will.

In any case, we learn that's not the way we are told to find Him.

So, even if you discover the interesting situation in fundamental ('high energy') physics right now, with the very odd situation with the Higgs Boson mass, which in turn allows this Universe to be as it is, and also life bearing, instead of quickly collapsing or quickly expanding into entropy death, but that the Higgs is very oddly just right without any good explanation, and the beautiful theory that was suppose to help fix that isn't working out so far....no data to support it where expected, nor again recently after the LHC upgrade.... all of that, even all of that isn't really the reason to believe in a Designer. Not even with physicists surprisingly now using the words 'unnatural' for this situation, and now in speculation about multiverses that will likely never be observable, so that the competing new speculative theories likely can never be supported with observation.....ever..... Still, this situation, even if convincing for a soul or two out there somewhere that understands all the science. It's not really the reason to believe.

Not it.

The reason to believe in God is because if you truly seek Him with all of your heart, you can find Him.

And learn of the One Whom He sent to us to teach us and save us from our worst -- Who said these:

"A new command I give to you, that you love one another as I have loved you."

"Forgive not just seven times, but seventy times seven."

"Love your neighbor as yourself."

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies..."


And then He gave us a way to begin to even do that....

That God, the only one, the Something you already can find, deep within --

"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the LORD, "and will bring you back from captivity...."

Regarding the part I bolded, what about those who sincerely sought and found nothing, and became atheists?
 
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Halbhh

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Regarding the part I bolded, what about those who sincerely sought and found nothing, and became atheists?

Well, the wording suggests to me a sort of "all in".

It's just like a real leap of faith, or really is a leap of faith.

I'm quite sure about that. It's very much like a person literally leaping off a building without seeing the trampoline. On an emotional level. Sort of. Because I dared to have my life turned up side down in that way.

Maybe not quite as brave as really risking death, but that....total going for it faith wise part. That's how I take "all of you heart."

It would not mean some other lessor thing like, "ok god, I don't know if you exist, but if you do, then send a sign". No, that's not it, not even slightly close.

One has to take a leap of faith, and try to find Him. That means moments of time where you truly have faith.
 
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pitabread

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I'm quite sure about that. It's very much like a person literally leaping off a building without seeing the trampoline. On an emotional level. Sort of. Because I dared to have my life turned up side down in that way.

I think what CrystalDragon was alluding to is the fact it's possible to have a similar experience and arrive at an entirely different world-view or belief.

I know for myself I went on a 'spiritual quest' of sorts back when I thought I needed religion in my life. But after seeking out and learning about all sorts of spiritual/religious beliefs, ultimately I arrived at a state of non-belief. And the effect was incredible; like there had been this giant weight on my shoulders and suddenly it was gone and everything seemed so clear. It was a rush of emotion and incredible relief, and all it took was acknowledging and coming to terms with what I honestly believed deep down.

Quite the experience. :)
 
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Halbhh

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I think what CrystalDragon was alluding to is the fact it's possible to have a similar experience and arrive at an entirely different world-view or belief.

I know for myself I went on a 'spiritual quest' of sorts back when I thought I needed religion in my life. But after seeking out and learning about all sorts of spiritual/religious beliefs, ultimately I arrived at a state of non-belief. And the effect was incredible; like there had been this giant weight on my shoulders and suddenly it was gone and everything seemed so clear. It was a rush of emotion and incredible relief, and all it took was acknowledging and coming to terms with what I honestly believed deep down.

Quite the experience. :)

I went on quite a few spiritual quests of sorts before.

I did authentic sweat lodges, learned TM mediation fully and even did it with the dedicated that lived in a community for a year and a half (it's pretty good in it's effect actually). So, yeah, you can have all sorts of spiritual quests. I know that first hand. Get all sorts of places. Realize their far out claims though don't work. That's right.

Glad you got the false off of your shoulders!

The reality of Christ is so different than weight on you, when you find the real thing.

Not about living up to some kind of notion someone has. It's more like you have transformation happen to you, and it's a gift to you, and you get it by truly trusting Him. The ultimate weights get taken off, the deeper ones.

He says, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

And really it's really the truth. The real thing is both easy and light, and it's much like....eating ambrosia or something. A perfect thing you need. Think on it -- "A new command I give you, that you love one another". It's to surrender to what we really want.
 
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pitabread

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Glad you got the false off of your shoulders!

The reality of Christ is so different than weight on you, when you find the real thing.

Just to clarify though, I found non-belief. Ultimately I adopted an agnostic position; I believe that if there is some sort of supernatural deity in the universe it is likely unknown to us and not represented in any particular theistic beliefs. But that's just my view of things. :)
 
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Halbhh

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Just to clarify though, I found non-belief. Ultimately I adopted an agnostic position; I believe that if there is some sort of supernatural deity in the universe it is likely unknown to us and not represented in any particular theistic beliefs. But that's just my view of things. :)

Here's a way to think about it -- if something is true, then versions of it are going to be discovered over and over through human history, over time, with different flavors, trying to capture that subtle or deeper insight or something hard to pin down. But after they try to get at that something that caused the initial quest, then the degree of the real in their beliefs they end up communicating will be what determines if the beliefs endure, instead of simply lasting a generation or several generation. If it has some real truth in it, instead of fading out, it will continue, century after century.
 
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pitabread

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Here's a way to think about it -- if something is true, then versions of it are going to be discovered over and over through human history, over time, with different flavors, trying to capture that subtle or deeper insight or something hard to pin down. But after they try to get at that something that caused the initial quest, then the degree of the real in their beliefs they end up communicating will be what determines if the beliefs endure, instead of simply lasting a generation or several generation. If it has some real truth in it, instead of fading out, it will continue, century after century.

That's one interpretation.

Another is that human beings with our endless curiosity and desire to understand the world coupled with amazing storytelling ability and language, leads to a plethora of narratives about our universe. Which may or may not have some truth to them.

Who can really say?
 
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xianghua

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xianghua

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Good grief man, you're like a broken record. :sigh:

fig7pt1.gif


Summary of the evolutionary model for the origin of the flagellum, showing the six major stages and key intermediates. White components have identified or reasonably probable nonflagellar homologs; grey components have either suggested but unsupported homologs, or no specific identified homologs, although ancestral functions can be postulated. The model begins with a passive, somewhat general inner membrane pore (1a) that is converted to a more substrate-specific pore (1b) by binding of proto-FlhA and/or FlhB to FliF. Interaction of an F1F0-ATP synthetase with FlhA/B produces an active transporter, a primitive type III export apparatus (1c). Addition of a secretin which associates with the cytoplasmic ring converts this to a type III secretion system (2). A mutated secretion substrate becomes a secreted adhesin (or alternatively an adhesin is coopted by transposition of the secretion recognition sequence), and a later mutation lets it bind to the outer side of the secretin (3a). Oligomerization of the adhesin produces a pentameric ring, allowing more surface adhesins without blocking other secretion substrates (3b). Polymerization of this ring produces a tube, a primitive type III pilus (4a; in the diagram, a white axial structure is substituted for the individual pilin subunits; all further axial proteins are descended from this common pilin ancestor). Oligomerization of a pilin produces the cap, increasing assembly speed and efficiency (4b). A duplicate pilin that loses its outer domains becomes the proto-rod protein, extending down through the secretin and strengthening pilus attachment by association with the base (4c). Further duplications of the proto-rod, filament, and cap proteins, occurring before and after the origin of the flagellum (6) produce the rest of the axial proteins; these repeated subfunctionalization events are not shown here. The protoflagellum (5a) is produced by cooption of TolQR homologs from a Tol-Pal-like system; perhaps a portion of a TolA homolog bound to FliF to produce proto-FliG. In order to improve rotation, the secretin loses its binding sites to the axial filament, becoming the proto-P-ring, and the role of outer membrane pore is taken over by the secretin’s lipoprotein chaperone ring, which becomes the proto-L-ring (5b). Perfection of the L-ring and addition of the rod cap FlgJ muramidase domain (which removes the necessity of finding a natural gap in the cell wall) results in 5c. Finally, binding of a mutant proto-FliN (probably a CheC receptor) to FliG couples the signal transduction system to the protoflagellum, producing a chemotactic flagellum (6); fusion of proto-FliN and CheC produces FliM. Each stage would obviously be followed by gradual coevolutionary optimization of component interactions. The origin of the flagellum is thus reduced to a series of mutationally plausible steps.

Evolution of the bacterial flagellum





Last year, Pallen and Matzke (2006) presented a discussion of how bacterial flagella may have evolved, based in large part on comparisons of sequences from the various protein components. Many of the proteins that make up a flagellum have homologues that serve non-flagellar functions, strongly suggesting that they were co-opted from pre-existing proteins during the evolution of flagella. (See Matzke’s detailed model of flagellar evolution here and a video based on it here, and Ken Miller talking about flagella here). Specifically, there is ever-mounting evidence that bacterial flagella and the type III secretory system (TTSS) that toxic bacteria use to inject their prey are descended from the same ancestral structure. The fact that the TTSS lacks many of the proteins in flagella but remains functional (for toxin injection rather than locomotion) clearly indicates that not all the parts need to be present for some function to be carried out by the structure.

Genome sequences reduce the complexity of bacterial flagella. « Genomicron

here is the same with camera evolution:

evolution of camera‏ - חיפוש ב-Google:

but it's doenst mean that there is a stepwise way from one kind into another.
 
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Jimmy D

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AirPo

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...

About the 5.5 billion you actually mean are not Christian, only a small portion of them have heard the exact teachings of Christ on how to live past some vague idea He wants us to love each other.

...
And you know that how?
 
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AirPo

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Here's a way to think about it -- if something is true, then versions of it are going to be discovered over and over through human history, over time, with different flavors, trying to capture that subtle or deeper insight or something hard to pin down. But after they try to get at that something that caused the initial quest, then the degree of the real in their beliefs they end up communicating will be what determines if the beliefs endure, instead of simply lasting a generation or several generation. If it has some real truth in it, instead of fading out, it will continue, century after century.
Here's a way to think about it .. myths, legends, and tall tales falsify the premise in the quoted post.
 
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Paulos23

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by this criteria somthing that looks like a car isnt a car and doesnt need a designer then?

I have never seen a car with a whip for wheels. It is not even like a car axel. It is a short axel run by processes that are possible at that scale.

If you are looking for evidence of a designer, I would think there would be more evidence at our scale.
 
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Halbhh

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And you know that how?

Discussions and using just the ordinary sense of people you get after you talk to many hundreds to many thousands, and start to see trends, etc.
 
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AirPo

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Discussions and using just the ordinary sense of people you get after you talk to many hundreds to many thousands, and start to see trends, etc.
I find that very hard to believe.
 
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