To all Mormons

[Evee]

What's your point about the theif [sic]?

Sven

Thief!!

 

[Chaucer]

How does one do that when we are talking about God?

Because Daneel, the Bible is not God. The Bible is a record of human writings, much of it based on hundreds of years of oral tradition that then got written down and who knows how well or poorly edited until it reached it present form.

I understand that many people think that somehow, magically, God did it all. Take away the unproven magic angle and you've got a human book. It can be proved to a 100% certainity that man wrote the Bible. Everything else is just faith, dogma and supposition.

 

[Chaucer]

H




It has been implied .....spirit children, pre-mortal existence, born of a "heavenly father, and heavenly mother". Implied, yet refuted, under the guise of "not official doctrine". A fun game for some, and not so fun for others.

Sorry to be so blunt but that is just a crock. There is no "guise". Mormons don't believe Mormons believe that. Only those who can't stick to honest criticism beleive that Mormons believe that.

 

[carolbob]

FB: You did not get my point. Your whole primus of the fall is based on God making a mistake, and then having to correct it. Yes Adam transgressed, but since the perfect all powerful and all knowing God intended for Adam to not transgress, God made a mistake. Because of the mistake, God had to come up with a plan to redeem us. That is the point I am making. Now I don't believe God made a mistake, but that it was God's plan and what has happened or will happen is all part of God's true intent.


[

Sorry, I have to disagree here. God did not make a mistake, IT'S CALLED FREE WILL!!!! Otherwise, we would be robots, or godbots! Do you not agree that God is perfect? How can perfection make a mistake? This is God, the creator of the universe, "With God ALL things are possible."

 

[Chaucer]

Sorry, I have to disagree here. God did not make a mistake... How can perfection make a mistake? This is God, the creator of the universe, "With God ALL things are possible."

I don't know but didn't God repent? Doesn't repenting indicate a mistake?

Jonah 310***And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

 

[carolbob]

I don't know but didn't God repent? Doesn't repenting indicate a mistake?

Jonah 310***And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

My NIV reads: When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction He had threatened.

God responded with mercy. The purpose of God's judgement is correction, not revenge.

 

[Chaucer]

My NIV reads: When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction He had threatened..

yeah but that not what is said in the msg, kjv, nlv, kj21, asv, etc....


But you know I am just being argumentative. No offense intended. I see your point, but even in your gentler interpretation God still changed his mind.

 

[carolbob]

yeah but that not what is said in the msg, kjv, nlv, kj21, asv, etc....


But you know I am just being argumentative. No offense intended. I see your point, but even in your gentler interpretation God still changed his mind.

No offense taken
But, there is a difference between compassion and repentence. Repentence throws a curve ball into the game, if you will. It goes from God being forgiving to God making a mistake. Does anyone know what the word we are "debating" over in the original language was?

 

[Larry]

The root word which was translated to 'repent' in some translations and 'relent' in other translations, is 'nacham'.


Nacham:

to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted
(Niphal)
to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion
to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent
to comfort oneself, be comforted
to comfort oneself, ease oneself
(Piel) to comfort, console
(Pual) to be comforted, be consoled
(Hithpael)
to be sorry, have compassion
to rue, repent of
to comfort oneself, be comforted
to ease oneself"

How we find the exact usage in Jonah 3:10, is to read the entire chapter. It's short, so I'll post it here.



1 Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying, 2 "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you." 3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent. 4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day's walk. Then he cried out and said, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!" 5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. 6 Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes. 7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published throughout Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; do not let them eat, or drink water. 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish? 10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it. (NKJV)





The message is quite clear, and the exact usage of 'Nacham' is now understood. Since the the city of Nineveh turned from their evil ways, God relented and sparred them from His wrath. No mistakes. No blunders. No "Ooops!" from God.

 

[carolbob]

The root word which was translated to 'repent' in some translations and 'relent' in other translations, is 'nacham'.


Nacham:

to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted
(Niphal)
to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion
to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent
to comfort oneself, be comforted
to comfort oneself, ease oneself
(Piel) to comfort, console
(Pual) to be comforted, be consoled
(Hithpael)
to be sorry, have compassion
to rue, repent of
to comfort oneself, be comforted
to ease oneself"

How we find the exact usage in Jonah 3:10, is to read the entire chapter. It's short, so I'll post it here.



1 Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying, 2 "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you." 3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent. 4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day's walk. Then he cried out and said, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!" 5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. 6 Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes. 7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published throughout Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; do not let them eat, or drink water. 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish? 10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it. (NKJV)





The message is quite clear, and the exact usage of 'Nacham' is now understood. Since the the city of Nineveh turned from their evil ways, God relented and sparred them from His wrath. No mistakes. No blunders. No "Ooops!" from God.

Awesome Larry!

 

[Chaucer]

The message is quite clear, and the exact usage of 'Nacham' is now understood. Since the the city of Nineveh turned from their evil ways, God relented and sparred them from His wrath. No mistakes. No blunders. No "Ooops!" from God.

Well all the different Bible version I listed (and more) have it as either God repented or God changed his mind.

If you're going with the Bible was translated wrong angel, okay, it just sounds a little Mormonish.

 

[Serapha]

Well all the different Bible version I listed (and more) have it as either God repented or God changed his mind.

If you're going with the Bible was translated wrong angel, okay, it just sounds a little Mormonish.

Hi there!





The Hebrew word for "relented" is "nacham" meaning comforted or repented, and it has a fairly complex translation depending upon the verb tense in which it is used. For example, In Genesis 6:6, "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." The translation in this case is reflexive meaning to comfort oneself, to ease oneself, or to have compassion. Vine's Expository Dictionary uses the term "change of heart or disposition, a change of mind, a change of purpose, or an emphaisis upon the change of one's conduct".

God's character never changes, but the way God deals with man changes. The example of a man riding a bicycle into the wind in contrast to his riding with the wind was an excellent example. The wind hasn't changed, the man's purpose has changed, and now, the wind is no longer a problem requiring responsive action.

In the instances where God "repented", and it appears that God changed
His mind; it would be better to understand that God "relented" instead. He yielded or responded in compassion to the circumstances of the situation which is another translation of the word, "nacham". For example, when the residents of Ninevah changed their hearts, God relented in compassion....

"And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and
he did it not." (Jonah 3:10)


The wind is just blowing in a different manner, but God is still God, unchanged.


~serapha~

 

[Chaucer]

In the instances where God "repented", and it appears that God changed
His mind; it would be better to understand that God "relented" instead.

No offense to your personally but I don't put much stock into anonymous posters on message boardds who maintain that they know better (than the translators) how problematic words from the Bible should have been translated...

 

[gort]

Chaucer:

Because Daneel, the Bible is not God. The Bible is a record of human writings, much of it based on hundreds of years of oral tradition that then got written down and who knows how well or poorly edited until it reached it present form

The topic was'nt about the Bible not being God. It was the things of God impressed into man. Take your "Indians" for example. What sort of beliefs did they have? What did they worship? I realize it was not the God I know, however it was something. And as I said, it was'nt God of the Bible, but then, that's what sin does.

Even the Egyptians have their beliefs of lifes origins starting with a small chunk of land.

I understand that many people think that somehow, magically, God did it all. Take away the unproven magic angle and you've got a human book. It can be proved to a 100% certainity that man wrote the Bible. Everything else is just faith, dogma and supposition.

Yes, man wrote the Bible, yet inspired by God. And yes, everything is faith. You seem to have a christian icon.....what do you believe?

Anyway....nitey nite


<><

 

[Rescued One]

FB: Was the theif on the Cross of his flock?

Here's your answer in context of what I previously posted.

Thieves, murderers, prostitutes, idolators, can come to Christ and find forgiveness. They can experience the new birth. Without the new birth, they will receive their part in the lake of fire. Without Christ, there is no gift of eternal life. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal through Jesus Christ our Lord.

What I pointed out to you is that Jesus is the door, He is the shepherd of the sheep. Those who try to be saved another way are thieves and robbers: their destiny is hell.

His sheep are the ones who hear His voice and follow Him.

 

[Rescued One]

You can not explain why a truely complete God wanted pleasure.

Psalm 115:3
But our God is in heaven;
He does whatever He pleases.

Psalm 147
11 The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy.


You can not understand why God wants something? [bible]Daniel 4:35[/bible]

In everything that is, has been, or shall hereafter be, the Lord our God is making Himself an everlasting and glorious name.

God desires for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth[bible]1 Timothy 2:4[/bible]
and He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
[bible]Ezekiel 33:11[/bible]
God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but He takes pleasure in His divine justice being satisfied.

[bible]Isaiah 53:10[/bible]

[bible]Isaiah 63:12-14[/bible]

[bible]Ephesians 1:10-11[/bible]

[bible]Proverbs 16:4[/bible]

[bible]Ephesians 5:15-17[/bible]

[bible]Matthew 6:10[/bible]

We were made for God's pleasure!
[bible]Revelation 4:11[/bible]

I hope you can come to terms with this. It is in the Bible. Do you believe God's word?

 

[Rescued One]

I've been thinking about your question, fatboys! Thanks for asking!



We were created for God's pleasure and glory. Isn't that awesome?

[bible]Isaiah 43:1-7[/bible]

Have you ever created something----a song or a piece of furniture or a work of art? Doesn't the act of creating give you pleasure? I think God enjoyed creating us; He found pleasure in doing it and He finds pleasure in us and our appreciation of all that He has done for us.

[bible]James 1:17[/bible]


[bible]Psalms 100:1-5[/bible]

 

[Chaucer]

Yes, man wrote the Bible, yet inspired by God. And yes, everything is faith. You seem to have a christian icon.....what do you believe?

Hello Daneel,

For me that is not the prime question. The question is how do you believe and why???

Yes I believe that God is behind the Bible - with a very wide latitude allowing for human invention.(btw, donkeys don't talk). I even believe that I have received personal and heavenly knowledge (inspiration) that the Bible contains the gospel. So for me - deep down in my soul - I KNOW the Bible contains the gospel. But that is internal knowledge. It is not transferable. The minute I project that knowledge outward, it is no longer a bankable comodity, it is or becomes faith - just faith. That is, no other person can bank on my knowledge/faith.

So, when we talk about the Bible saying this or proving that - nonsense - it doesn't prove anything. 1) It is not inerrant in its present form, and 2) it is subject to interpretation.

It is way too egotistical to imagine that one's interpretation of the Bible is the one and only interpretation and then label everything else false.

 

[fatboys]

Hello Daneel,

For me that is not the prime question. The question is how do you believe and why???

Yes I believe that God is behind the Bible - with a very wide latitude allowing for human invention.(btw, donkeys don't talk). I even believe that I have received personal and heavenly knowledge (inspiration) that the Bible contains the gospel. So for me - deep down in my soul - I KNOW the Bible contains the gospel. But that is internal knowledge. It is not transferable. The minute I project that knowledge outward, it is no longer a bankable comodity, it is or becomes faith - just faith. That is, no other person can bank on my knowledge/faith.

So, when we talk about the Bible saying this or proving that - nonsense - it doesn't prove anything. 1) It is not inerrant in its present form, and 2) it is subject to interpretation.

It is way too egotistical to imagine that one's interpretation of the Bible is the one and only interpretation and then label everything else false.

FB: You know I have state this very thing about a billion times, but never have said it in such a clear way. Thank you.

Oh I agree with you

 

[fatboys]

I've been thinking about your question, fatboys! Thanks for asking!



We were created for God's pleasure and glory. Isn't that awesome?

[bible]Isaiah 43:1-7[/bible]

Have you ever created something----a song or a piece of furniture or a work of art? Doesn't the act of creating give you pleasure? I think God enjoyed creating us; He found pleasure in doing it and He finds pleasure in us and our appreciation of all that He has done for us.

[bible]James 1:17[/bible]


[bible]Psalms 100:1-5[/bible]

FB: You know what really bugs me is that you hammer us with God was once a man, and say God is nothing like man, yet you give human attributes to God and that is okay. Is God human?