To all Mormons

[skylark1]

FB: This is possitively my last for a while. Sky mailed me and said this was an interesting topic, and Sky was exactly right. A while ago I asked others how they knew what they believe was correct. How was it manifest to them. They inturn asked if I would tell how I knew. I explained it, and it had nothing to do with burning in the bosom but I said that perhaps the burning is the only way some people could explain it. I explained it as a sense of security, a sense of complete peace. I tell eight year olds that when they get hurt and the can only think about one thing. Getting into their mothers arms and them holding them. That peace is similar to what the Holy Ghost gives to us when we ask for truth. That everything is alright, and our pain will end. For a short time your troubles are lifted, and peace comes into your soul. LDS do not have debs on the Holy Ghost, and anyone who asks God for truth will receive it. But for the confirmation and witness for his word, that is the best I can describe it. Thanks Sky

FB,


Actually when I sent you the pm this morning in regards to what sounded like you leaving the board, I thought that the discussion was going to go in a different direction. I did get you to post one more time though.

You wrote:

LDS do not have debs on the Holy Ghost, and anyone who asks God for truth will receive it.


​

What about the people who have prayed concerning the BOM, and did feel that they had a spiritual confirmation? Or people who have prayed about what church to go to, and God leads them elsewhere, confirmed by something similar to what has been described?

 

[call-me-dan]

I cannot say anything for certain about Mormanism, so I wont.

I do have a question though. Do Mormans believe that those Christians who are not Mormans will also go to heaven when they die? And is this based on your Book of Morman or on doctrine compiled after the fact?

thanks for your time!

†
pura vida
dan

 

[Alma]

I cannot say anything for certain about Mormonism, so I wont.

I do have a question though. Do Mormons believe that those Christians who are not Mormons will also go to heaven when they die? And is this based on your Book of Mormon or on doctrine compiled after the fact?

thanks for your time!

†
pura vida
dan

Mormons believe that there are many divisions in “heaven,” Jesus said, “In my father’s house are many mansions. Technically speaking, everyone who doesn’t go to hell (also called “outer darkness”) goes to “heaven” and that within that classification there are three basic degrees of glory. All children who die before the age of 8 inherit the highest of these. Mormons believe that individuals who die after the age of eight, must repent, and receive ordinances (baptism, gift of holy spirit, marriage, etc.) of the gospel by an authorized minister. These ordinances are necessary for entrance into the highest degree and Mormons perform those ordinances on behalf of the dead. They believe that all who accept the gospel of Jesus Christ will likewise accept these ordinances and also inherit celestial glory. So, to say that we believe that non-Mormons won’t go to heaven would contradict one of the major tenets of our faith: vicarious work for the dead.

These teachings aren’t enunciated in the Book of Mormon, but we have several books of scripture and an open canon where this doctrine is articulated.

Alma

 

[skylark1]

I cannot say anything for certain about Mormanism, so I wont.

I do have a question though. Do Mormans believe that those Christians who are not Mormans will also go to heaven when they die? And is this based on your Book of Morman or on doctrine compiled after the fact?

thanks for your time!

†
pura vida
dan

Dan,

Something that Alma didn't mention is that LDS believe that only those who are in the highest level of heaven, the Celestial Kingdom, will be in the presence of God the Father. Those who do not accept the LDS version of the gospel and receive ordinances by someone with LDS authority, will spend eternity separated from Him.

Some LDS on this board have said that if non-LDS Christians do not accept the LDS gospel, that they believe that we will spend eternity in the second level, the Terrestrial Kingdom, separated from God the Father, but that we will be happy there. I think that separation from God the Father for eternity sounds more like damnation than heaven!


I hope that helps.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

How do you know that Joseph Smith was a real prophet? Couldnt he have been just making things up?

Yes.

I love these easy questions.

 

[Ran77]

You make a very strong accusation. Care to provide some references so we know what you are talking about??

Ok. I provided the references. The only thing I hear in response is the crickets that Ammon mentioned.

Will you be following the advice that you gave to the LDS here?

 

[Ran77]

...concerning the burning in the bosom. Alright then, I stand corrected. I can only say that this is true of every converted Mormon that I've talked to in person. I can think of Mormons who've grown up in the LDS Church that have not had this and have not bothered to pray about the BoM.

I am a convert. But I haven't spoken to you in person. Are you indicating that is neccessary to speak with you in person in order for our views on the topic to be valid?

 

[Doc T]

Those who do not accept the LDS version of the gospel and receive ordinances by someone with LDS authority, will spend eternity separated from Him.

I'm not sure if you wrote this correctly, or are not understanding something. Would you look at it and see if that is what you meant to say.

Doc

~

 

[skylark1]

I'm not sure if you wrote this correctly, or are not understanding something. Would you look at it and see if that is what you meant to say.

I'll rephrase the question, then you can tell me if you think that I am misunderstanding.



LDS believe that those who:

1. Do not accept the LDS gospel either in this life, or if they did not have a fair chance to accept it in this life do not accept it after they die

and

2. Do not receive ordinances by someone with LDS authority, either in this life, or do not accept them vicariously after they have died


will spend eternity separated from the presence of God the Father.



Was that clearer, or am I misunderstanding something?

 

[Fit4Christ]

Ok. I provided the references. The only thing I hear in response is the crickets that Ammon mentioned.

Will you be following the advice that you gave to the LDS here?

Sorry, I overlooked it. I hadn't intended to take up the torch personally. It just seems the main premise on these discussions is when you make a statement such as you did, references or supporting material should be presented.

As I am going on vacation cool: ) tomorrow for the next 10 days, I'm not sure I can provide a response before I leave. However, I will try. Any others willing to look into Ran's verse are more than welcome to pitch in!

 

[Doc T]

Deleted

 

[Eldest]

"Regardless of who is correct, archeaology does nothing to prove the central claims of the Bible: That there is a God of Israel, that he created and communicated with man, that Christ is the Savior and through him we might be redeemed. Hence I find Bible archeology very interesting but or ancillary importance only."
Chaucer,

Then why defend TBOM or attack Christianity, or me directly. Go back and look at your posts, I didn't offend you, rather you seemed to be offended by my remarks. Which would only be offensive to a Mormon. In the end all religion is based off of subjective feelings. We cant prove anything, but if you belive in something then why heavily question or doubt in what you believe? You can investigate your religion of course, but why defend a cult in the way that you have. Skylark pointed out that one of your icons is indeed a cross and that you are "Christian". My main problem with Mormons is that Mormons hide behind Christianity, calling themselves Christian, followers of the "one and only true " church of Jesus. They do not believe in monotheism, they do not believe in the holy trinity, and they do not believe in the same Jesus Christ that us Christians believe in. One of their main tactics in recruiting people is to not tell them the truth at first about their true beliefs, and that TBOM looks completely "christian" in appearance. How well do you think they would do if they handed people all 3 of the main Mormon books at first, TBOM, D&C, & The Pearl of Great Price. The last 2 books stated heavily contradict TBOM, and that would confuse people and probally wouldnt get many new recruits. Many uneducated Christians are lured over to Mormonism because that they think that Mormonism is just another denomination of christianity. Whereas the educated Christians know better, they know that Mormonism is just a cult.

 

[Eldest]

In the end I just have a problem with Mormons calling themselves "Christian". To me that is a slap in the face of God. But thats just me and in no manner do I ever mean to offend anyone, unless telling the truth is offensive, than I am guilty.

 

[fatboys]

FB,


Actually when I sent you the pm this morning in regards to what sounded like you leaving the board, I thought that the discussion was going to go in a different direction. I did get you to post one more time though.

You wrote:

LDS do not have debs on the Holy Ghost, and anyone who asks God for truth will receive it.


​

What about the people who have prayed concerning the BOM, and did feel that they had a spiritual confirmation? Or people who have prayed about what church to go to, and God leads them elsewhere, confirmed by something similar to what has been described?

FB: Sky only for you. In many of the posts from non LDS they make fun and mock feelings as a confirmation of truth. If a person does not believe that they can receive an answer from the Holy Ghost from feelings, I have asked many times how this confirmation manifest itself as. As for my confirmation as to the restoration, there is no denying what I recieved as an answer. I would be mocking God. What really amazes me is that I don't think of myself as a great man, or even very intelligent. I am not a great leader, and I seem to get callings in the church that are missionary oriented. That is my strong suit. My point is that I have a strong faith, and knowledge as to what I believe. My amazements comes that others can not see what I have had the opportunity to have. I feel like I have cheated because I did not pray for days or weeks or months to know this. I have known others who put such great effort into learning the truth. Yet it came to me when I decided that I had better get sincere in knowing. And when I found out that I was willing to change.

 

[Breetai]

I am a convert. But I haven't spoken to you in person. Are you indicating that is neccessary to speak with you in person in order for our views on the topic to be valid?

I hope that I did not convey that in my post. I certainly didn't mean to.

 

[Chaucer]

Then why defend TBOM or attack Christianity, or me directly. Go back and look at your posts, I didn't offend you, rather you seemed to be offended by my remarks. Which would only be offensive to a Mormon. In the end all religion is based off of subjective feelings. We cant prove anything, but if you belive in something then why heavily question or doubt in what you believe? You can investigate your religion of course, but why defend a cult in the way that you have. Skylark pointed out that one of your icons is indeed a cross and that you are "Christian". My main problem with Mormons is that Mormons hide behind Christianity, calling themselves Christian, followers of the "one and only true " church of Jesus. They do not believe in monotheism, they do not believe in the holy trinity, and they do not believe in the same Jesus Christ that us Christians believe in. One of their main tactics in recruiting people is to not tell them the truth at first about their true beliefs, and that TBOM looks completely "christian" in appearance. How well do you think they would do if they handed people all 3 of the main Mormon books at first, TBOM, D&C, & The Pearl of Great Price. The last 2 books stated heavily contradict TBOM, and that would confuse people and probally wouldnt get many new recruits. Many uneducated Christians are lured over to Mormonism because that they think that Mormonism is just another denomination of christianity. Whereas the educated Christians know better, they know that Mormonism is just a cult.[/font]

You are making me chuckle Eldest,

I haven’t defended the Book of Mormon I just correctly pointed out that there have been fewer revisions to it than there have been to the modern English Bible. I am at a loss to understand how one could misconstrue that to be a defense.

Conversely I have not attacked Christianity. I have not even addressed Christianity so it is a mystery how you could confuse my remarks as an attack on it.

Further, I am left wondering how it is that you think I have been offended by you. You seem like a likeable sort. So far I can find nothing offensive in you, toward me or to anyone. I don’t think you should be so hard on yourself.

Going on, you say that I have defended the Mormon “cult.” Now that one really has me stumped. I have 42 posts on this website and I know what I said in each one of them. You are inventing something when you say this. I don’t think that you should do that.

As for the rest of your post, I wonder who on earth you are talking to. Me? Do you suppose that I am uneducated about Christianity or Mormonism or need a lecture about what is good and decent? Maybe that is what you think. Maybe you think that I do need to be lectured. If so, what is it that I have said that causes you to think that I need to be lectured?

 

[Chaucer]

In the end I just have a problem with Mormons calling themselves "Christian". To me that is a slap in the face of God. But thats just me and in no manner do I ever mean to offend anyone, unless telling the truth is offensive, than I am guilty.

Might I suggest that you let God worry about if and how He is offended.

 

[skylark1]

FB: Sky only for you. In many of the posts from non LDS they make fun and mock feelings as a confirmation of truth. If a person does not believe that they can receive an answer from the Holy Ghost from feelings, I have asked many times how this confirmation manifest itself as. As for my confirmation as to the restoration, there is no denying what I recieved as an answer. I would be mocking God. What really amazes me is that I don't think of myself as a great man, or even very intelligent. I am not a great leader, and I seem to get callings in the church that are missionary oriented. That is my strong suit. My point is that I have a strong faith, and knowledge as to what I believe. My amazements comes that others can not see what I have had the opportunity to have. I feel like I have cheated because I did not pray for days or weeks or months to know this. I have known others who put such great effort into learning the truth. Yet it came to me when I decided that I had better get sincere in knowing. And when I found out that I was willing to change.

Hi FB,

First, I hope that you do not think that I am mocking you or making fun of you. I have experienced feeling like you have described, but it had nothing to do with the BOM or the LDS Church. I realize that can probably be difficult to discuss because it is so personal and sacred to you (and others).

I am not sure, but I think that you are suggesting if others do not feel that the BOM is true, that they are not sincere enough, or that they are unwilling to repent. So, let's assume that one is repentant, and sincere, but still feels that God has led them elsewhere. If they have experienced the same feelings or confirmation that you have, then how would you explain it?

 

[MormonFriend]

Hi FB,

First, I hope that you do not think that I am mocking you or making fun of you. I have experienced feeling like you have described, but it had nothing to do with the BOM or the LDS Church. I realize that can probably be difficult to discuss because it is so personal and sacred to you (and others).

I am not sure, but I think that you are suggesting if others do not feel that the BOM is true, that they are not sincere enough, or that they are unwilling to repent. So, let's assume that one is repentant, and sincere, but still feels that God has led them elsewhere. If they have experienced the same feelings or confirmation that you have, then how would you explain it?

there is another variable or potential that I see. In our faith we were with God in the pre-earth life. We received forordination pertaining to the experiences we would have. This is my perception of our forordinations, I have not read this in any Church materials, and this is not Church doctrine. Not all spirit were willing to take the responsibilities that are associated with knowledge given. "Where much is given, much is expected" is a phrase well known to LDS. It may very well be that not all were for-ordained to receive a witness from the Holy Ghost about the Restoration.

Of course, you do not take stock in our eternal nature and pre-earth existance, but what you are asking should be weighed by the full picture of our beliefs, if one is to ascertain if our pieces fit together.

So there may well be other reasons besides insincerity and repentance that keeps people from receiving the answer from the Holy Ghost.

 

[fatboys]

Hi FB,

First, I hope that you do not think that I am mocking you or making fun of you. I have experienced feeling like you have described, but it had nothing to do with the BOM or the LDS Church. I realize that can probably be difficult to discuss because it is so personal and sacred to you (and others).

I am not sure, but I think that you are suggesting if others do not feel that the BOM is true, that they are not sincere enough, or that they are unwilling to repent. So, let's assume that one is repentant, and sincere, but still feels that God has led them elsewhere. If they have experienced the same feelings or confirmation that you have, then how would you explain it?

FB: God loves all his children not just mormons. I respect and hold in reverance your experience. When I was seeking truth, I did not ask God what was false. I asked what was true. Now think about that. When I have asked others about their experience as to how they know I am wrong, they never say. I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying there is more. There are those who want to make a contest out of and say we are evil or the devils, or what we teach is of the devil. How silly.

When a person is asked to pray about the Book of Mormon, they usually come into this with biases. Is God going to witness to them that the Book of Mormon is scripture if they are not going to do anything about it? I remember teaching a young married couple. When we taught them the spirit was so strong that they interupted us in the middle of it and asked what they were both feeling? They described together what I have felt and described here. We told them this was the Holy Spirit. They wanted us to keep teaching them. We asked them to join. They said, we know that the church was true. What we taught was true. But they could not change their lives. My heart broke and we continued to visit them and fellowship them. They never joined the church while I was there. After they had their first child, their hearts were changed and they joined. For a time I had thought that I had brought to them more condemnation. Of course this was my finite understanding. But the seed was planted and they had to be nurtured. They were open to the spirit. Now I can imagine if I had been raised in another faith and two mormon missionaries came knocking at my door. It would be hard enough to believe two young men that the church had fallen away and been restored let alone being exposed to anti material to be sincere. I am not saying that you are not sincere, but you have already made your mind up. I don't judge you on this. If you took away all they have believe is false about our belief, and if you can possibly think that what we teach is plausible, then you may possibly be sincere enough. Many people join the church because they are not happy with what they have. If you are happy with what you have, then it is going to be hard for you to be sincere enough to receive an answer.

This does not make me better than you. It does not mean that I was greater in our previous life. It just means that I have accepted something you can not. Either way it goes, all of us will know what Christ has for us to do. I remember a few years ago having this discussion with a young lady who was such a sweet heart. And smart as a whip. And she told me that even though it was possible that Joseph Smith restored the gospel, she had learned so much negatives about him that she said that if it was true, that she would probably not be in the right frame of mind to listen. And I don't know how to tell someone to put all these negatives out of their mind so that they can listen to the spirit whisper to them. That is what it is Sky, the still small voice. They voice that tells you that it is possible. That what we have been saying is right. And those who fight so hard against this are just denying their own feelings. There is not a person I have ever baptised that really studied the bible that did not already believe. Even though their faith taught something else, when ever we would teach them about a pre existance or what life after death was like, they had to break down their barriars but they always seemed to already know. Just like coming home.

Well I have got to get some sleep good night