To all Mormons

[Doc T]

That is not true. I have told you that I do not have a testimony based on a burning bosom. You have made a false statement here.

Wow Ran, now Breetai knows two Mormons who reject "burning of the bosom" as the only source of a testimony. Any other Mormons care to chime in?

Doc

~

 

[Alma]

Wow Ran, now Breetai knows two Mormons who reject "burning of the bosom" as the only source of a testimony. Any other Mormons care to chime in?

Doc

~

Here's another Mormon who thinks that idea is bogus. It reminds me of a comment I wish I would have saved from an internet discussion about 8 years ago. The poster claimed, "THIS is Mormon doctrine, believed by every Mormon I've ever met except for the Mormons who all post here."

Alma

 

[Fit4Christ]

Here's another Mormon who thinks that idea is bogus. It reminds me of a comment I wish I would have saved from an internet discussion about 8 years ago. The poster claimed, "THIS is Mormon doctrine, believed by every Mormon I've ever met except for the Mormons who all post here."

Alma

Well, I have the testimony of 6 in-laws of the "burning bosom" theory, so I guess that makes the score 6-3, doesn't it?

Now, can we get back to the OP by abba, please:

To all Mormons


How do you know that Joseph Smith was a real prophet? Couldnt he have been just making things up?

 

[skylark1]

Doc, Alma, or anyone else LDS who cares to answer,

I have read messages here and elsewhere in which LDS have stated that they did not know that the Book of Mormon was true by a "burning in the bosom." Since so many have claimed this, yet so much has been written about LDS missionaries telling people to "pray to know if the BOM is true, and that it will be confirmed by a burning of the bosom," I am curious why there is such a discrepency. I am not questioning your honesty at all, I'm just trying to understand.

Do you feel that the truth of the BOM was confirmed to you partially by a "burning in the bosom" and partially by study, do you feel that the the spirit confirmed this to you in a different way, or did you arrrive at your conclusion purely by study?


BTW, I know that Moroni 10 doesn't mention a "burning in the bosom." Some time ago, I assumed that it did, simply because I either read it some place or was told that that it did. When I finally bothered to read what it said for myself, I was surprised tht there was no mention of it.



However, D&C 9:8 does mention this:

But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.​

 

[Alma]

I have read messages here and elsewhere in which LDS have stated that they did not know that the Book of Mormon was true by a "burning in the bosom." Since so many have claimed this, yet so much has been written about LDS missionaries telling people to "pray to know if the BOM is true, and that it will be confirmed by a burning of the bosom," I am curious why there is such a discrepency. I am not questioning your honesty at all, I'm just trying to understand.

Skylark, I think the point that I and Doc and Ran and others are trying to make is that the denigration of the concept of a “burning bosom” is mistaken. Breetai implied that the LDS testimony rested entirely with a “good feeling” and equated that to the “burning bosom.” We don’t deny that this concept is valid and may play a part in some people’s testimony but the implication that this is the sole or even the primary claim to a testimony is utterly and totally false. I attend LDS services regularly, I hobnob with LDS people and I rarely hear any of them describe the source of their testimony as a burning bosom. More often, I hear it explained that God (usually the Holy Spirit) told them something specific. Whether that instruction came by an audible voice, an impression, a vision or a visitation or some other means all constitute ways in which someone might obtain a witness or a testimony. Even so, this shouldn’t be interpreted in such a way as to conclude that we reject the “burning in the bosom.” That facet of revelation was pointed out by Jesus’ disciples who met the Lord on the road to Emmaus and in retrospect concluded that they should have realized who had walked with them: “Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?” (Luke 24:32)

Do you feel that the truth of the BOM was confirmed to you partially by a "burning in the bosom" and partially by study, do you feel that the the spirit confirmed this to you in a different way, or did you arrrive at your conclusion purely by study?

The confirmation of the truthfulness of the BOM is to me a sacred experience that I don’t generally discuss. I classify it as a “pearl.” Now, lest people pitch a fit and think that I have called them swine, I should explain that I don’t know who the swine are, only that they are out there and Christ has given instruction not to cast pearls where they can be trampled upon. So, I would imagine those who really take offense at that concept should take it up with the Lord.

BTW, I know that Moroni 10 doesn't mention a "burning in the bosom." Some time ago, I assumed that it did, simply because I either read it some place or was told that that it did. When I finally bothered to read what it said for myself, I was surprised tht there was no mention of it.



However, D&C 9:8 does mention this:

And, notice, that this reference in the D&C isn’t dealing with obtaining a testimony per se but with instruction on how Oliver Cowdery was to be able to translate ancient documents.



Alma

 

[skylark1]

Skylark, I think the point that I and Doc and Ran and others are trying to make is that the denigration of the concept of a “burning bosom” is mistaken. Breetai implied that the LDS testimony rested entirely with a “good feeling” and equated that to the “burning bosom.” We don’t deny that this concept is valid and may play a part in some people’s testimony but the implication that this is the sole or even the primary claim to a testimony is utterly and totally false. I attend LDS services regularly, I hobnob with LDS people and I rarely hear any of them describe the source of their testimony as a burning bosom. More often, I hear it explained that God (usually the Holy Spirit) told them something specific. Whether that instruction came by an audible voice, an impression, a vision or a visitation or some other means all constitute ways in which someone might obtain a witness or a testimony. Even so, this shouldn’t be interpreted in such a way as to conclude that we reject the “burning in the bosom.” That facet of revelation was pointed out by Jesus’ disciples who met the Lord on the road to Emmaus and in retrospect concluded that they should have realized who had walked with them: “Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?” (Luke 24:32)

Thanks for your response. That was a lot more informative than non-LDS telling LDS what they believe, and LDS responding with a simple "that's not true."

The confirmation of the truthfulness of the BOM is to me a sacred experience that I don’t generally discuss. I classify it as a “pearl.” Now, lest people pitch a fit and think that I have called them swine, I should explain that I don’t know who the swine are, only that they are out there and Christ has given instruction not to cast pearls where they can be trampled upon. So, I would imagine those who really take offense at that concept should take it up with the Lord.

I guess that I didn't mean for the question to be of such a personal nature, but of a more general nature concerning if LDS believe that the truthfulness of the BOM is confirmed only by a "burning in the bosom," only by another spiritual experience or feelings, only by study, or by a combination. Don't worry, I am not going to pitch a fit and think that you are calling me a swine.

And, notice, that this reference in the D&C isn’t dealing with obtaining a testimony per se but with instruction on how Oliver Cowdery was to be able to translate ancient documents.

I did notice that when I read the verse in context, and almost mentioned it, but thought that it was better to let LDS explain how they feel that the verse should be applied.

Edit to add: Even though the reference in the D&C pertained to Oliver Cowdery and translating documents, do you believe that many or most LDS apply this to how they believe that the spirit will confirm if the BOM is true? It seems like if so many claim that missionaries and/or relatives mention this, that the belief would have its basis in one of the LDS standard works.

 

[gort]

Fit4Christ:

Well, I have the testimony of 6 in-laws of the "burning bosom" theory, so I guess that makes the score 6-3, doesn't it?

Make that 7-3. Pops wrote that same thing in a BOM that he sent me.


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[Doc T]

I guess that I didn't mean for the question to be of such a personal nature, but of a more general nature concerning if LDS believe that the truthfulness of the BOM is confirmed only by a "burning in the bosom," only by another spiritual experience or feelings, only by study, or by a combination.

Speaking personally, it is a combination of the witness of the Spirit (see below) as well as by study.

Even though the reference in the D&C pertained to Oliver Cowdery and translating documents, do you believe that many or most LDS apply this to how they believe that the spirit will confirm if the BOM is true? It seems like if so many claim that missionaries and/or relatives mention this, that the belief would have its basis in one of the LDS standard works.

While the D&C as well as the Bible speak of a "burning" feeling in our heart that can arise from the witness of the Spirit (as Alma pointed out), that is to me just part of how the Spirit communicates with us. Other important passages teach that the Spirit can be discerned by the way it enlightens our mind and intellect, speaks peace and joy to our heart, and leads us to do what is good. Doctrine and Covenants 11:12-14, given by revelation to Joseph Smith, is noteworthy:

12 And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good--yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit.

13 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I will impart unto you of my Spirit, which shall enlighten your mind, which shall fill your soul with joy;

14 And then shall ye know, or by this shall you know, all things whatsoever you desire of me, which are pertaining unto things of righteousness, in faith believing in me that you shall receive.​

Likewise, Doctrine and Covenants 8:2,3 explains the involvement of both the heart and mind in discerning the Spirit:

2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.​

I do believe that D&C 9 is where that term came from, but I feel that is a generic term used by people to describe a witness from the Holy Spirit. Usually when our critics use the term "burning bosom" they are implying that Mormons rely solely on subjective feelings while they on the other hand rely on logic and objective truth. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I hope this clairifies.

Doc

~

 

[Doc T]

Make that 7-3. Pops wrote that same thing in a BOM that he sent me.


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Interesting, most LDS refer people to Moroni 10:4-6 which, as Skylark pointed out, says nothing of a "burning bosom".

I guess your Pops is different.

Doc

~

 

[gort]

Doc T:

Interesting, most LDS refer people to Moroni 10:4-6 which, as Skylark pointed out, says nothing of a "burning bosom".

I guess your Pops is different.

Doc

No, not different. He still gets up in the morning and puts his pants on one leg at a time. He's 75 now and been temple worthy for more than 25 years. I can quote it for you online if you like. But I would rather not.



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[Breetai]

...every single other Mormon that I've ever talked to...

...concerning the burning in the bosom. Alright then, I stand corrected. I can only say that this is true of every converted Mormon that I've talked to in person. I can think of Mormons who've grown up in the LDS Church that have not had this and have not bothered to pray about the BoM.

 

[Frankie]

...concerning the burning in the bosom. Alright then, I stand corrected. I can only say that this is true of every converted Mormon that I've talked to in person. I can think of Mormons who've grown up in the LDS Church that have not had this and have not bothered to pray about the BoM.

I don't know Breetai, the lds I talk to and have talked to in "real life" give very different opinions than many of the lds on this forum. I have been told by lds that you could go to any lds church in the world and be taught the same teachings as you would at any other lds church in another part of the world but I have to wonder about that considering that what I am told by lds in "real life" is so different than what I often hear lds on this forum say.

Frankie

 

[fatboys]

I don't know Breetai, the lds I talk to and have talked to in "real life" give very different opinions than many of the lds on this forum. I have been told by lds that you could go to any lds church in the world and be taught the same teachings as you would at any other lds church in another part of the world but I have to wonder about that considering that what I am told by lds in "real life" is so different than what I often hear lds on this forum say.

Frankie

FB: This is possitively my last for a while. Sky mailed me and said this was an interesting topic, and Sky was exactly right. A while ago I asked others how they knew what they believe was correct. How was it manifest to them. They inturn asked if I would tell how I knew. I explained it, and it had nothing to do with burning in the bosom but I said that perhaps the burning is the only way some people could explain it. I explained it as a sense of security, a sense of complete peace. I tell eight year olds that when they get hurt and the can only think about one thing. Getting into their mothers arms and them holding them. That peace is similar to what the Holy Ghost gives to us when we ask for truth. That everything is alright, and our pain will end. For a short time your troubles are lifted, and peace comes into your soul. LDS do not have debs on the Holy Ghost, and anyone who asks God for truth will receive it. But for the confirmation and witness for his word, that is the best I can describe it. Thanks Sky

 

[Frankie]

FB: This is possitively my last for a while. Sky mailed me and said this was an interesting topic, and Sky was exactly right. A while ago I asked others how they knew what they believe was correct. How was it manifest to them. They inturn asked if I would tell how I knew. I explained it, and it had nothing to do with burning in the bosom but I said that perhaps the burning is the only way some people could explain it. I explained it as a sense of security, a sense of complete peace. I tell eight year olds that when they get hurt and the can only think about one thing. Getting into their mothers arms and them holding them. That peace is similar to what the Holy Ghost gives to us when we ask for truth. That everything is alright, and our pain will end. For a short time your troubles are lifted, and peace comes into your soul. LDS do not have debs on the Holy Ghost, and anyone who asks God for truth will receive it. But for the confirmation and witness for his word, that is the best I can describe it. Thanks Sky

yes, I remember that post of yours and I remember responding and saying that i also have those same "feelings" and asking if according to lds teachings, does that mean that I have the lds holy spirit?

Frankie

 

[Breetai]

I don't know Breetai, the lds I talk to and have talked to in "real life" give very different opinions than many of the lds on this forum. I have been told by lds that you could go to any lds church in the world and be taught the same teachings as you would at any other lds church in another part of the world but I have to wonder about that considering that what I am told by lds in "real life" is so different than what I often hear lds on this forum say.

Frankie

This is what I think:

Many of the LDS on this forum are more educated in the Bible(as well as their own scriptures) than most. They have to be in order to defend their beliefs against us that debate with them. Many of the people who post here have become quite knowledgable since joining CF (I like to include myself here) because of the need to defend their faith.

In addition to that, with the internet having become so popular, information is easily and widely available. People today, those that read the huge amounts of things that are available to them online, including the LDS here, are often vastly more knowledgable then those that don't bother to read much. It seems that the majority of the posters in the unorthodox forum are very well read in what they debate.

Many of the 'real-life' people do not study these matters of docturnal dabates as we here at CF(and at other boards) do. As a result, many of the questions asked of those people are going to be cardboard answers; answers that have been fed to them by their respective organizations.

 

[Breetai]

When I write stuff like I have just written in the above post, I often end up thinking of Daniel Chapter 12:

...at the time of the end...knowledge shall be increased...

I wonder if this is meant to apply to today?

 

[Chaucer]

If you argued over the authenticity and accuracy over the testaments as compared to TBOM, that leads us to believe that you are a Mormon apologetic. Correct me if I am wrong. As for errors in TBOM, I didnt even mention the plagorisms, or the manner in which it was supposedly translated. I'm just saying that TBOM has NO archealogical proof to back up its claim, or scriptual evidence to support it. Where as Christianity does, are you going to tell me that I am wrong, because doing so is only fooling yourself, and yet again you have evaded me and my questions directly.[/font]

Hi Eldest,

1. I am not really arguing the authenticity or accuracy of the Bible of the Book of Mormon. I acknowledge that changes that have been made. It was your characteriztion that the BOM changes far exceeded Bible differences that I knew was incorrect.

2. I agree that, at least as far as I know, there is no significant archeological support for the Book of Mormon or maybe any period.

3. I also agree that there is a huge amount of archeaological support to show that Bible stories were written in or about real places and times. I am also aware that there is a growing concensus among many well-meaning experts that much archeaological evidence against the accuracy or reality of many Bible stories.

Regardless of who is correct, archeaology does nothing to prove the central claims of the Bible: That there is a God of Israel, that he created and communicated with man, that Christ is the Savior and through him we might be redeemed. Hence I find Bible archeology very interesting but or ancillary importance only.

Regards,

 

[spike]

Wow Ran, now Breetai knows two Mormons who reject "burning of the bosom" as the only source of a testimony. Any other Mormons care to chime in?

Doc

~

Here's another..

 

[Chaucer]

This is what I think:

Many of the LDS on this forum are more educated in the Bible(as well as their own scriptures) than most. They have to be in order to defend their beliefs against us that debate with them. Many of the people who post here have become quite knowledgable since joining CF (I like to include myself here) because of the need to defend their faith.

In addition to that, with the internet having become so popular, information is easily and widely available. People today, those that read the huge amounts of things that are available to them online, including the LDS here, are often vastly more knowledgable then those that don't bother to read much. It seems that the majority of the posters in the unorthodox forum are very well read in what they debate.

Many of the 'real-life' people do not study these matters of docturnal dabates as we here at CF(and at other boards) do. As a result, many of the questions asked of those people are going to be cardboard answers; answers that have been fed to them by their respective organizations.

Great point Breetai. I talk to people of various religions at work, from the surface believers to the devote but when when it comes to detail knowledge of their religion, chance are that they aren't that well versed.

Those of us that have a deeper interested congregate here, but it you are motivated, it becomes and excellent vehicle to greater knowledge (or misinformation if you are not careful).

 

[gort]

Interesting, most LDS refer people to Moroni 10:4-6 which, as Skylark pointed out, says nothing of a "burning bosom".

I guess your Pops is different.

Doc



Spike: Here's another..



----------------------------------------------


Because some inquiring minds really want to know the truth, and others play games....

Upon checking Pops notes, He does have moroni 10:4 underlined. Written in the margin, he writes, "Pray to God, in sincerity, if this book is true. If you seek truth, then the Holy Ghost will burn in you."


Now, if any of you doubters would like his name and address so you can find out where he lives, to have him stoned, please give me a pm and I will gladly supply it for you.

Maybe there is more division within the mormon church than meets the eyeball.


As a sidenote, the student worker, the one back from Spain, gave me the same answer today about caffeinated soda as did Fit4Christ. Some mormons don't drink sodas with caffeine and some do. It is at their discretion.

Thanx Fit4Christ.


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