To all Mormons

Chaucer · Jul 21, 2004

skylark1 said:
We have not been told, but we do know that God is just.

Okay, I too believe that God is just but that idea doesn't always jive with the scriptures.

In 2 Samuel, Chapter 6 the story is told of Uzzah. The ark was being transported in a chart. One of the oxen pulling the cart stumbled. Uzzah put his hand on the ark to steady it; surely a noble deed.

Uzzah's reward? "And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God."

It's difficult to imagine justice in passages like that.

gort · Jul 21, 2004

MF quote:
"Why would God have beings created who have no chance at salvation?" This question reflects the same question I have asked for months here, and many have tried to get something across to me that either makes no sense, or I am dense. If I am dense, I would appreciate the Christian Spirit of patience in finding ways to help me understand.

He did'nt. Scripture says so. And of those who have not heard the Gospel? While I nor anyone else has the pat answer, what can I do? but Trust and have Hope. Simply that. It is the work of God.

<><

MormonFriend · Jul 21, 2004

skylark1 said:
Hi MF,

I think that Doc pointed out the same scripture. I agree that we are to submit our lives to Christ. Here is my response that I posted earlier:

I guess that I was reading something different than what was intended into the usage of the word "purify." Of course, we are called to keep ourselves pure, morally straight, and to abide in Christ. But ultimately, we can only be purified by the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 9
14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God.

We are in accord here. I suppose the difference we have is in how His blood is applied.

This is my view. The blood of Christ was shed for all, but not all will receive it, even though all are invited to do so. It boils down to the freedom of choice we were given to take His name upon us. We can make a verbal affirmation of accepting Him, but we are but children without experience. The proof is in the pudding, not in the recipie. As children, we often say things in honest intent, but not understanding our own hearts and convictions until our convictions are tested. When we find that our convictions don't fully support our verbal affirmation of accepting Christ, He forgives us for our lacking and short comings. At the same time He provides us His support for improving our convictions, if we will endure the refinement. That is where the works come in to play. Works are entirely separate from salvation through His blood. But they are given to us for the purpose of being refined. "He who endures to the end shall be saved."

skylark1 · Jul 21, 2004

Chaucer said:
Okay, I too believe that God is just but that idea doesn't always jive with the scriptures.

In 2 Samuel, Chapter 6 the story is told of Uzzah. The ark was being transported in a chart. One of the oxen pulling the cart stumbled. Uzzah put his hand on the ark to steady it; surely a noble deed.

Uzzah's reward? "And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God."

It's difficult to imagine justice in passages like that.

Chaucer,

I think that you like to challenge everything!

God had given specific instructions concerning carrying the ark, which included not touching the ark. The penalty was death.

Numbers 4
15 "After Aaron and his sons have finished covering the holy furnishings and all the holy articles, and when the camp is ready to move, the Kohathites are to come to do the carrying. But they must not touch the holy things or they will die. The Kohathites are to carry those things that are in the Tent of Meeting.

From our perspective, it might seem unfair and unjust, but I think that he knows more of the details than you or I do. Perhaps Uzzah's carelessness was a reflection of a lack of faith and reverence. Sin has consequences, whether from our perspective we think that it is fair or not.

Isaiah 45
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Rescued One · Jul 21, 2004

MormonFriend said:
With equal due respect Sven, the infinite God has revealed his attributes to us so that we might have just a clue as to what we worship, and what we shouldn't worship. He told us that He is Just. He is not a respecter of persons. Fatboys brought up a conflict of those attributes in Christianity. "Why would God have beings created who have no chance at salvation?" This question reflects the same question I have asked for months here, and many have tried to get something across to me that either makes no sense, or I am dense. If I am dense, I would appreciate the Christian Spirit of patience in finding ways to help me understand.

Your belief is that we were created from nothing. It would follow then, that everything we are is the result of what God made us to be. Free will is the same for everyone. The fact that we use it differently means that we were created differently. On that thought I second fatboys' question. "Why would God have beings created who have no chance at salvation?"

No one said He did. Why would a loving God create Satan? He did. Why did He let my sister and father die of cancer without forcing them to first accept Jesus? He did. Why would you question God like that? Who is in charge anyway---you or God? People can write their own little fairy tales and make their own little happy endings, but that's all they are: fairy tales.

God never said He doesn't give certain people an opportunity to know Him. On the other hand, He is omniscient so He knows if an Aborigine will ever accept Christ. Don't you think He saves the ones who are going to be saved?

According to Mormonism, intelligences have freewill, but not all are going to the Celestial Kingdom. How is that more just than Christian beliefs? You want to find fault with our God and His ways. I happen to believe that my God has more wisdom than you or I. I don't find fault with a perfect God.

Exodus 33
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

MormonFriend · Jul 21, 2004

daneel said:
He did'nt. Scripture says so. And of those who have not heard the Gospel? While I nor anyone else has the pat answer, what can I do? but Trust and have Hope. Simply that. It is the work of God.

<><

Of course you are correct that He didn't. But the belief in modern Christianity is that we were created from nothing. Since everything we are is the result of what God made us to be, then those who do not choose the redeeming blood of Jesus are only acting on how they were created. Again, free will is the same for everyone, so how it is used reveals the differences in us. Who made us different?

(The only solution is that we were not created from nothing.)

Rescued One · Jul 21, 2004

MormonFriend said:
Of course you are correct that He didn't. But the belief in modern Christianity is that we were created from nothing. Since everything we are is the result of what God made us to be, then those who do not choose the redeeming blood of Jesus are only acting on how they were created. Again, free will is the same for everyone, so how it is used reveals the differences in us. Who made us different?

God gave man freewill. Freewill means that man can choose right or wrong. All people are predisposed to sin since the fall. Not all people reject Christ. We can come to Christ and receive the new birth. We choose whom we will serve.

[bible]Colossians 3:25[/bible]

MormonFriend said:
(The only solution is that we were not created from nothing.)

Solution to what?

MormonFriend · Jul 21, 2004

GodsWordisTrue said:
...Not all people reject Christ. ...

Why is it that some do and some don't? They are different! Who made them different?

Rescued One · Jul 21, 2004

MormonFriend said:
Why is it that some do and some don't? They are different! Who made them different?

All people are different. Even my brothers are different from each other. So what? They have had different experiences and influences. Free will is non-existent if you're saying that intelligences are programmed a certain way to make choices. It makes no difference how God created us. Freewill is freewill. Your inability to understand this doesn't change the situation.

Rescued One · Jul 21, 2004

MormonFriend said:
Why is it that some do and some don't? They are different! Who made them different?

Ever think about the training that people receive? Some are raised Amish and grow up to be Amish. Some are raised LDS and grow up to be LDS. Some are abused and grow up to abuse. Some try very hard to be like their parents and some try to not be like their parents. Some are shown kindness by Christians and some are in a different sphere than Christians, perhaps surrounded by drug addicts or alcoholics.

MormonFriend · Jul 21, 2004

GodsWordisTrue said:
Ever think about the training that people receive? Some are raised Amish and grow up to be Amish. Some are raised LDS and grow up to be LDS. Some are abused and grow up to abuse. Some try very hard to be like their parents and some try to not be like their parents. Some are shown kindness by Christians and some are in a different sphere than Christians, perhaps surrounded by drug addicts or alcoholics.

So the fate of our salvation depends on where, and to whom we are born? We has no choice in that either!

MormonFriend · Jul 21, 2004

GodsWordisTrue said:
All people are different. Even my brothers are different from each other. So what? They have had different experiences and influences. Free will is non-existent if you're saying that intelligences are programmed a certain way to make choices. It makes no difference how God created us. Freewill is freewill. Your inability to understand this doesn't change the situation.

We believe intelligences are eternal, no beginning. They, ... we were not programmed and that is my point.

skylark1 · Jul 21, 2004

We do not believe that we are programed robots either.

People are not condemned for what they do not know, but for what they do know. Man is without excuse because God has revealed himself in his creation.

Romans 1
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Furthermore, God has given men consciences, and Paul stated in his letter to the Romans that those without the law show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts.

Romans 2
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Frankie · Jul 21, 2004

MormonFriend said:
So the fate of our salvation depends on where, and to whom we are born? We has no choice in that either!

The fate of our salvation depends on our accepting of Jesus' free gift to us. No one is without excuse. I can see how from the lds perspective, this would be hard to agree with considering that lds believe their gospel is the only "true" gospel and let's face it, the Mormon church has not been around very long regardless of the what lds claim to the contrary. Just think of all the billions of people who have never heard the lds gospel, how could they possibly accept it? However, from the Christian view point, we know that God's Word says that He has revealled himself and that no man is without excuse, so we know that God is able and has revealed himself to all man so they can accept or reject the Lord.

Frankie

Alma · Jul 21, 2004

Frankie said:
The fate of our salvation depends on our accepting of Jesus' free gift to us. No one is without excuse. I can see how from the lds perspective, this would be hard to agree with considering that lds believe their gospel is the only "true" gospel and let's face it, the Mormon church has not been around very long regardless of the what lds claim to the contrary. Just think of all the billions of people who have never heard the lds gospel, how could they possibly accept it? However, from the Christian view point, we know that God's Word says that He has revealled himself and that no man is without excuse, so we know that God is able and has revealed himself to all man so they can accept or reject the Lord.

Frankie

Haven't you ever heard of baptism for the dead Frankie? Simply considering the numbers, think of all the billions who have never heard of sola fide. LDS theology has a clear answer for those who have never heard, and it comes from the Bible.

Alma

Frankie · Jul 21, 2004

Alma said:
Haven't you ever heard of baptism for the dead Frankie? Simply considering the numbers, think of all the billions who have never heard of sola fide. LDS theology has a clear answer for those who have never heard, and it comes from the Bible.

Alma

There is no need for baptism for the dead because the truth of God is revealed to ALL man through His creation. Like the Bible says, we have this life to accept or reject the Lord's free gift to us. God reveals himself to all man. Baptism for the dead is not a godly practice. There is ONE place in the Bible where it is mentioned and the people who were practicing it were not even included in the group of believers.

Every man is WITHOUT excuse. God says in His holy Word that He reveals himself to all man. Of course to believe this, you have to believe that the Word of God is really the Word of God..... which I DO.

Frankie

RufustheRed · Jul 21, 2004

fatboys said:
FB: I disagree. You are trying to make God finite.

I have no idea where you get the misconception that it is I who is attempting to "make God finite." It isn't I who tells people that he was once a man, as you and I are. No one can totally comprehend God. To say that I have claimed otherwise, is totally dishonest.

FB said:
I am just trying to understand why God says that he loves all of us, and then condemns those who, for no choice of their own, but for Gods own pleasure. This does not sound like a fair, loving, kind Father.

I see. You struggle with the age old concept of theodicy. Until you completely surrender your will to Him, you will never understand the infinite will of God with your finite mind. You only listed three of God's attributes, are there others like justice, omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscientness that just might help you some in discovering God. This list is my no means exhaustive, merely because God cannot be described by the limits of language. If you think that qualifies your accusation that it is I that is trying to make God finite, I am sorry that you just don't understand.

FB said:
FB: Not asking for a God that fits my logical standard, but one that fits consistently the word of God.

As you understand it. I'm not the one having a problem acknowledging that God is truely beyond ANY ONE'S complete comprehension. My advice is that you go back to the word of God and study, fast, pray and accept that God will reveal to you what you need to know to be saved.

FB: said:
He is everyones shepherd, not just yours.

I didn't mean to be exclusive in quoting from the Psalms. I didn't realize that you felt offended by the words of the Bible. Perhaps you should take that up with God, also.

Sven

skylark1 · Jul 21, 2004

Alma said:
Haven't you ever heard of baptism for the dead Frankie? Simply considering the numbers, think of all the billions who have never heard of sola fide. LDS theology has a clear answer for those who have never heard, and it comes from the Bible.

Alma

I think that the bible offers another answer. The Old Testament saints were justified by faith, even though the gospel had not been revealed fully to them. I don't think that it contradicts scripture to suggest that those who have never heard will be judged according to the light that they have been given, including being justified by faith in what God has revealed to them. Still, we are only saved by the blood of Christ.

This short article discusses this in more detail: http://www.biblequery.org/neverheardbq.htm

fatboys · Jul 21, 2004

Sven1967 said:
I have no idea where you get the misconception that it is I who is attempting to "make God finite." It isn't I who tells people that he was once a man, as you and I are. No one can totally comprehend God. To say that I have claimed otherwise, is totally dishonest.

FB: God once being a man does not make him finite. And as for you comprehending God, you have stated that you know the true character of God over what I believe. You are wrong. I believe that God has always been God, and that he is our parent. We are his children. And like any parent wants for us the best. And what could that best be?

I see. You struggle with the age old concept of theodicy. Until you completely surrender your will to Him, you will never understand the infinite will of God with your finite mind. You only listed three of God's attributes, are there others like justice, omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscientness that just might help you some in discovering God. This list is my no means exhaustive, merely because God cannot be described by the limits of language. If you think that qualifies your accusation that it is I that is trying to make God finite, I am sorry that you just don't understand.

FB: Until you make more sense in your interpretation and understanding of the true character of God then I will believe you are making God finite. In all the actions of God, in our very existance, it is one mistake after another. Your finite God seems to be always trying to correct things. For Adam fell. Adam was not suppose to fall, but he did. So God has to correct that. God created evil. God was not suppose to create evil, but now he has to work against his own creation. To the point that in the end the evil will be destroyed. But then evil was created by God by mistake. This makes God finite.

As you understand it. I'm not the one having a problem acknowledging that God is truely beyond ANY ONE'S complete comprehension. My advice is that you go back to the word of God and study, fast, pray and accept that God will reveal to you what you need to know to be saved.

FB: No your problem is trying to make square pegs fit in round holes. You can not explain why a truely complete God wanted pleasure. And I have studied, prayed anad fasted. I am on the right track. I am saved. I will be married to my wife for ever. I will inherit the kingdom of God, and be like him.

I didn't mean to be exclusive in quoting from the Psalms. I didn't realize that you felt offended by the words of the Bible. Perhaps you should take that up with God, also.

Sven

FB: Huh?

RufustheRed · Jul 21, 2004

Alma said:
Haven't you ever heard of baptism for the dead Frankie? Simply considering the numbers, think of all the billions who have never heard of sola fide. LDS theology has a clear answer for those who have never heard, and it comes from the Bible.

Alma

The pure logistics of baptising for the dead renders the concept invalid (besides the misinterpreation of a particular Bible verse). How many people have ever lived where there are no records of their births, marriages and deaths for the "Ward Record Examiner" to verify that enough data is even available to be submitted?

Can you tell me, is your organization still offending the Jewish community by performing this "baptism for the dead" ceremony of those Jews who died in the holocaust? I believe that the LDS promised not to do this anymore, only to go back on their word and resume the practice.

Tsk! Tsk! Tsk!

People or organizations shouldn't promise to cease something and then continue doing it. This really questions the honesty and credibility of those who are engaged in the deception.
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/1490-_Proxy_Baptism_of_Jews_Under_Review.html

Sven

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