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Joven

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Not tithing is a form of robbing God Almighty.

MAL 3:8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob Me.
"But you ask, `How do we rob you?'
"In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse--the whole nation of you--because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty. 12 "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the LORD Almighty.
 
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grateful heart

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Not tithing is a form of robbing God Almighty.

MAL 3:8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob Me.
"But you ask, `How do we rob you?'
"In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse--the whole nation of you--because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty. 12 "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the LORD Almighty.
Yes read my previous posts on this, we are not under a curse like the people of Israel were at this time, and nations will call you blessed, again not for us if it was for everyone it would of said mankind would call you blessed or people
 
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theywhosowintears

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I cannot prove conclusively that you must tithe but I am sure that I can prove that God will bless you more if you do then if you do not.

Malachi 3
6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. 7 Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the LORD Almighty.
"But you ask, 'How are we to return?'

8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me.
"But you ask, 'How do we rob you?'
"In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty. 12 "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the LORD Almighty.

matt 4:7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'

This (Malachi 3) is the only time in the bible that God calls us to TEST Him. He is saying trust me with your money give it to me and I WILL bless you.

Now I am sure that you know that Jesus fulfilled the requirement of the law otherwise He would not have been able to repeal the old law and bring in a new law (the LAW of the Spirit). That means He observed the Mosaic law (not the subsequent laws introduced by the Jewish priesthood) which included tithing. Jesus tithed.

Jeus said this in Matthew 5:17:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I can go into this in more detail perhaps if it seems helpful...
Also read Matt 6: 1-4 and 28-34 It begins to show you the right attitude toward giving so that we will learn to be generous toward the poor and toward God and the church, it is the attitude or spirit that God desires.
As you may know God wants us to be like Him (if we have seen Jesus we have seen the Father) and God is generous in His giving, we should be "immitators of God"
James 1:
5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
and also
17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Peace
 
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grateful heart

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Hi
yes giving and offerings I have no problem with as i stated earlier and as you stated in Math yes it is blessed to give than to receive, and this is another reason i dont believe the tithe, it is restrictive and legalistic.
remember the new law didnt come into Place until after Jesus died and was ressurrected, hence why jesus spoke on the law before he died,

On malachi 4 I still dont accept that just because he only uses the word Test twice means that is the same thing he is talking about.

Like i said in previous posts about Malachi 3 being a law God gave to the Israelites for that time and for a specific reason as i have shown in other posts , and still no one has refuted what i have said
 
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theywhosowintears

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grateful heart said:
Hi
yes giving and offerings I have no problem with as i stated earlier and as you stated in Math yes it is blessed to give than to receive, and this is another reason i dont believe the tithe, it is restrictive and legalistic.
remember the new law didnt come into Place until after Jesus died and was ressurrected, hence why jesus spoke on the law before he died,

On malachi 4 I still dont accept that just because he only uses the word Test twice means that is the same thing he is talking about.

Like i said in previous posts about Malachi 3 being a law God gave to the Israelites for that time and for a specific reason as i have shown in other posts , and still no one has refuted what i have said

I can't refute what you have said.

Maybe studying this will.

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

To say you believe God will provide for you and not giving more then you can afford proves that your faith is dead. (not saying "your" as in you in particular because I include myself in the statement)

Also (I may have to look this up but) you will probably find that tithing was instituted before the Old Testement (the covenant between God and Israel) in which case the closing of the Old Covenant (Testement) has no effect on tithing. (not sure if this is accurate and havn't got time to study it right now)

If you (greaetful_heart) are open to the concept look at Abraham tithing to Malchizadech (sp?) and even Cain and Able who were required to give as the 'firstfruits' were never theirs but God's.

Make your own decision and be fully convinced before God, to your own Master you will stand or fall.


I believe the concept of teh tithe is that the first 10% of what we make does not beling to us, therefore an offering is only what is on top of the tithe

Peace
 
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grateful heart

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14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
I totally agree , faith and works need to be done, but this has nothing to do with Tithing


Also (I may have to look this up but) you will probably find that tithing was instituted before the Old Testement (the covenant between God and Israel) in which case the closing of the Old Covenant (Testement) has no effect on tithing. (not sure if this is accurate and havn't got time to study it right now)
Not sure either, but either way I still cant see it is for today , as paul has made no mention to it.

If you (greaetful_heart) are open to the concept look at Abraham tithing to Malchizadech (sp?) and even Cain and Able who were required to give as the 'firstfruits' were never theirs but God's.
I acutally have and again these are circumstancial, if you want me to go explain please tell me and i will

believe me when i say this, I am open to correction as I believe it tithing for years, only now have I seen that it could possibly be wrong, as i twould be easier to give a tithe and be done with it as apposed to listening to the holy spirit and give according my own heart
 
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theywhosowintears

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grateful heart said:
believe me when i say this, I am open to correction as I believe it tithing for years, only now have I seen that it could possibly be wrong, as i twould be easier to give a tithe and be done with it as apposed to listening to the holy spirit and give according my own heart

The secret to telling if God is deciding the amount to give or if you are...the amount you can't afford is the amount God is asking you for.

If you can afford it you are not using any faith. If it is something that takes no effort or no sacrifice or no faith then it is like the religious who gave much ($1000's) if you cannot afford it it is like the widow with the mite (lets say $2.00) she could not afford it and Jesus used her as an example of how we should give.

So anyone who says they are giving what they can afford are in practice saying "I do not have faith in God over my finances" or at least not understanding the principle.

Anyone who does not believe in tithing must believe in giving more then 10% for it to be biblical ( the scripture stating we must be more righteous then the scribes and teachers to inherit heaven)

Anyway Like I said: be convinced before God because He will judge us all.

peace
 
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grateful heart

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(Gen 14:16-20)
What the Bible does say
Abram, victorious over the armies of the kings, had rescued his nephew Lot and brought back all the goods and captives previously taken by enemies. He was met by Melchizedek, priest of the Most High God, who blessed him and to whom Abram gave "tithes of all" or, as most translations render it, "a tenth of everything."


The Bible does NOT say
  • that Abram was obeying a set law prescribing that a tenth be given;
  • and that God had commanded him to pay this amount.
Perhaps this biblical example implies that tithing was obligatory? We cannot argue for or against a decision from silence on a matter.




A closer examination
Note that Abram gave Melchizedek "a tenth of everything" he had brought back from battle. Abraham will be in the first resurrection, is therefore a part of the Bride of Christ, and is therefore a Christian (Gal 3:8; Heb 11:10). Abram was "giving" as opposed to "paying" a tenth. Melchizedek did not use any compulsion of law to collect this tenth. By contrast, in Lev 27:30-33; Num 18:24; Deut 14:22-29, the words "give" or "gave" are not used in describing the obligations of the Israelites to tithe in the Law of Moses.


Christians in various churches are urged to follow Abraham's "tithing" example, but the means of this tithe precedent, going to war to save, is precluded from any explanations. This could hardly be called a consistent use of precedence.


Abram was giving a tenth of the spoils of war, as Heb 7:4 says. Some of the possessions he had recaptured belonged to Lot (v 16), but most of them belonged to the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah (v 11). None belonged to Abram, who refused to take anything that belonged to the king of Sodom (vv 21-24). How can it then be stated that Abraham was acting in accordance with a universal tithing law which was later codified? Nowhere else is there any reference to Abraham tithing.
  • Tithes were paid of crops from the land or of animals to a long-term Levitical priesthood (Lev 27:30-31). The spoils of war are not an increase from farms, orchards or ranches.
  • After the battle, Abram was left with no more than he had possessed previously (v 24). So there was no "increase"!
  • There was, moreover, no biblical teaching that a tenth of the spoils of war was subject to tithing.
Consider the following two examples.
  1. When Israel "spoiled" the Egyptians, there is no evidence that any tithes were paid on their acquisitions, even if these spoils are to be considered as back wages due to them for their years of slavery (Ex 3:21-22; 11:2-3; 12:35-36). They did later make liberal offerings to the building of the tabernacle.
  2. The Israelites defeated the Midianites in battle and divided the war booty (Num 31:1-12). One five-hundredth was taken from half the total booty given to the men of war and was allotted to the priests. One fiftieth of the other half given to the 'congregation' was allotted to the Levites. There was no set tithe-one tenth-of the booty given. There was no agricultural increase-the fruits of human effort and God's blessings. The Mosaic instructions given by the LORD (v 25) regarding the spoils of war did not include the requirement to tithe, even though the booty included cattle and sheep (Num 31:9, 26-31).
We see then that Abram's action in giving a tenth to Melchizedek was not in accord with any clear law of tithing then written or unwritten. Abram may have been responding, in part, to customs within the religious culture of his day. He did recognize Melchizedek as the high priest of God (Heb 7:1). He retained nothing of the spoils, so nothing was "tithable". They would have been mostly goods and possessions, treasures and valuables, we would assume, along with captive slaves and animals. Abram would have realized (if a tithing law were in force) that since only new crops and animals were subject to the tithe, he was not required to pay.


Nevertheless, we cannot ignore the fact that Abram tithed on the spoils of war. He gave a tenth to Melchizedek, most to those who had been robbed, and some to those who had helped (Gen 14:21-24). Whenever this example is used to induce people to tithe it seems that other problems inherent in this historic event are overlooked. If Melchizedek was the preincarnate Jesus Christ, who were his supporting priests? Who were his subjects in Jerusalem? Does this historic event suggest that the first public preaching of the Gospel was to Jebusites (Gal 3:8)? This is a problematic example to use to induce others to tithe. But this OT event is used as part of the argument to persuade people that it is an important precedent and example of tithing by the "father of the faithful" (Gal 3:7-9; Rom 4:12,16; Isa 51:2). This is a precedent and example of great importance, but is it of tithing?



ABRAHAM AND HIS TIMES
For Abraham, the principle of the tithe was not something new for in his Babylonian cultural environment the practice was common. Cuneiform tablets contain frequent references to tithing in ancient Chaldea and Ugarit in Syria. The great temples of Babylonia were largely supported by the esra, or tithe, which was levied on prince and peasant alike. Tithing in ancient cultures is invariably associated with a sacrificial system and offerings to a god or gods. (See W. von Soden, The Ancient Orient, [Eerdmans: 1994], pp 188-98; A. Leo Oppenheim, Ancient Mesopotamia, [University of Chicago: 1977], pp 183-98; W. Eichrodt, Theology of the Old Testament, [SCM: 1987], Vol 1, pp 141-77; Harris, Archer, Waltke (editors), Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, [Moody Press: 1980], Item 1711, and 1711c,h; G. Roux, Ancient Iraq, [Penguin: 1983], pp 127-8; 132-3; 161-4; 196-200; 369-70).


The Illustrated Bible Dictionary (Douglas, Hillyer, Bruce, et al (editors), [IVP: 1988]), which is a popular three-volume Bible dictionary, makes this introductory comment: "The custom of tithing did not originate with the Mosaic law (Gn. 14:17-20), nor was it peculiar to the Hebrews. It was practised among other ancient peoples" (TITHES, p 1572). More detailed verification is in the above sources.


Abram, who was familiar with these ancient practices common in Ur, Haran, and amongst the Canaanites, gave, as a freewill offering of thanksgiving, a tenth of the spoils of war; a thank offering of a tithe for the very likely miraculous deliverance of all and for the retrieval of the stolen goods. Perhaps an additional reason for the offering was that it was made to a king-priest, Melchizedek. Nevertheless, it was voluntary. Admittedly, the writer of Hebrews uses Abraham's example to compare it to the tithes the Levites received (Heb 7:5). But more on this later.


WHO WAS MELCHIZEDEK?
The HarperCollins NRSV Study Bible says Melchizedek was a Canaanite priest-king. Footnotes in the Jerusalem Bible (Darton, Longman & Todd: 1966) say that 'several of the Fathers even held the opinion that Melchizedek was a manifestation of the Son of God in person.' The NJB 1985 edition does not include this comment. The Soncino Press Chumash has a footnote saying, The Midrash identifies him with Shem (as do some Targums on the Pentateuch (W.R. Inge & H.L. Goudge, Hebrews, [Cassell: 1924], p 61). The DSS (Dead Sea Scrolls) fragment, 11QMelch, which identifies him as 'the Elohim who takes his place in the divine council in the midst of the elohim (cf. Ps 82:1).'G. Vermes, The Dead Sea Scrolls in English, [Penguin:1990], pp 300-301), has:
  • He [The Almighty God] will assign them (i.e., the captives given liberty) to the Sons of Heaven and to the inheritance of Melchizedek; for He will cast their lot amid the portions of Melchizedek, who will return them there and will proclaim to them liberty, forgiving them the wrong-doings of all their iniquities.
Gerhard von Rad in his Genesis commentary, (SCM: 1972), makes these comments (p 179):
  • Ps. 110 connects the Melchizedek tradition with the Davidic throne and since Ps. 76.2 uses the name Salem for Jerusalem, one must here hold to the identification with Jerusalem. The supposition of a pre-Israelite city-king of Jerusalem does not cause the least difficulty since the discovery of the correspondences between the Syro-Palestinian city-kings and the Pharaoh during the fourteenth century B.C. In it were discovered letters from a prince of Jerusalem. The name Melchizedek is certainly old-Canaanite (cf. Adonizedek, Josh 10.1). The combination of both offices, priest and king, in one person was not unusual in the ancient Near East (e.g., in Phoenicia).
The commentator goes on to say that this priest-king was a heathen (p 180), but adds:
  • ... the most important thing is that Abraham received the blessing of the precursor to David and the Davidic dynasty, that even Abraham had recognized his duty toward Jerusalem and its king (p 181).
The Jesuit, Leopold Sabourin, in The Psalms: Their Origin and Meaning, (Alba House: 1974), expresses similar views:
  • Melchizedek, king at Salem, the Jebusite city, was a priest of el-elyon (God-Most-High: Gn 14:18), worshipped by the Phoenicians and the Canaanites. In a way David installed Yahweh in Zion, to replace the former divinity. In return (cf. Ps 2:6), Yahweh proclaimed David king and priest according to the order of Melchizedek (Ps 110:4) and made with his family an eternal covenant (cf. also Pss 89:3,4,28,29,36; 132:10ff) [p 358].
The Westminster Dictionary of the Bible, (New York: 1944), has this interesting comment:
  • Melchizedek, as described in Heb. 5:10; 6:20; ch. 7, was without father, without mother, without genealogy. This statement means that his pedigree is not recorded (cf. Ezra 2:59,62). This mode of expression is ancient. Thus Urukagina, king of Lagash (c. 2450 B.C.), who is famous for his economic reforms, said that he had neither father nor mother, but that the god Ningirsu appointed him; he was probably a usurper. Melchizedek is further described as having neither beginning of days nor end of life, of whom it is testified that he lives. He suddenly emerges from the unknown and as suddenly disappears; it is not known whence he came or whither he went; neither birth nor death is assigned to him; he is a type of undying priesthood.
The identity of Melchizedek and his significance are controversial. If a claim is made that he is literally without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life (Heb 7:3), that he is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, then we have Jesus Christ living and ruling in a Jebusite city in the days of Abraham. The Jebusites were heathen. Who were his helpers in his temple? Would some of them have formed a pre-Levitical priesthood? Such questions seem to be unaddressed when claims are made that Melchizedek was the pre-incarnate Christ directly ruling over a heathen city.
 
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grateful heart

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The secret to telling if God is deciding the amount to give or if you are...the amount you can't afford is the amount God is asking you for.

If you can afford it you are not using any faith. If it is something that takes no effort or no sacrifice or no faith then it is like the religious who gave much ($1000's) if you cannot afford it it is like the widow with the mite (lets say $2.00) she could not afford it and Jesus used her as an example of how we should give.

So anyone who says they are giving what they can afford are in practice saying "I do not have faith in God over my finances" or at least not understanding the principle.

Anyone who does not believe in tithing must believe in giving more then 10% for it to be biblical ( the scripture stating we must be more righteous then the scribes and teachers to inherit heaven)

Anyway Like I said: be convinced before God because He will judge us all.

peace
A question, i am not saying you are wrong im just wondering inregards to Giving to be a stretch, do u have any verses to back this up?this would be appreciated
 
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someone_else

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wow this got deep.. anyway i have skimeed through all that but not read it all.

i have a question. what do you see as the diffrence bettween "tith" and "giving"?

what im seeing is this.

i dont agree with tith but i will still give money to my church. what the diffrence either way your giving money to the church. the diffrence i see is simply in the additude
 
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grateful heart

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Hi Someone_else

Tithe= 10% that was described by the OT in regards to first fruits to the prieste
Offerings= everything else "a free gift"

Basically the main reason why i do not agree with tithes not including Biblial verses etc is that it is restrictive and a law, and i dont want to be judged by the law as Jesus states i would be if i adhered to the OT Law, Also it cant be regarded as religious to people that have the wrong heart(isnt it better if they didnt give than gave with a hardened heart?)
I give money too- My church- compassion, different charitable organisations, if i feel god is telling me to give time, money, anything else to a person, family organisation etc etc, and always be cheerful about it. sowing a good seed

does this make sense?
 
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someone_else

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grateful heart said:
Hi Someone_else

Tithe= 10% that was described by the OT in regards to first fruits to the prieste
Offerings= everything else "a free gift"

Basically the main reason why i do not agree with tithes not including Biblial verses etc is that it is restrictive and a law, and i dont want to be judged by the law as Jesus states i would be if i adhered to the OT Law, Also it cant be regarded as religious to people that have the wrong heart(isnt it better if they didnt give than gave with a hardened heart?)
I give money too- My church- compassion, different charitable organisations, if i feel god is telling me to give time, money, anything else to a person, family organisation etc etc, and always be cheerful about it. sowing a good seed

does this make sense?

yeah it makes sense. when i said "tith" "giving" i was not talking about offering i see offerings as above my regular giving.

i dont see a problem with how you give. i guesse my point is we both give to our churchs we just call it diffrent things in the end its the same thing "giving to my church"
 
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theywhosowintears

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grateful heart said:
Hi Someone_else

Tithe= 10% that was described by the OT in regards to first fruits to the prieste
Offerings= everything else "a free gift"

Basically the main reason why i do not agree with tithes not including Biblial verses etc is that it is restrictive and a law, and i dont want to be judged by the law as Jesus states i would be if i adhered to the OT Law,

does this make sense?

I am not sure if it does make sense to me, because I don't remember any verses where Jesus says I would be judged by the law if I adhere to OT law.

I know some of the Epistles mention a similar vein of thinking however it is more about circumcision (into the OT system) which is not necesary as we have a new sign of our new covenant which would be Baptism.

look forward to hearing your thoughts
 
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