Tithing

[Andyman_1970]

Actually, you unwittingly pulled the rug out from under organized religion when admitting that "money" is needed for the support of what you call the "church". NOTE your use of the small "c" as opposed to a capital "C".

This only proves that anything that stands or falls on account of money is clearly man-made. The local Church, which is not dependent upon money for its survival and continuance, exists in spite of money, not because of it.

Dr. Don Dean

I agree - my statement was made to address those who "argue" that the Church "must" have money to operate.........

 

[Swordman007]

I agree - my statement was made to address those who "argue" that the Church "must" have money to operate.........

Thank you.

For the sake of clarification, I think that if people join a denominational or so-called non-denominational "church" fraternity, and reap benefit from it, then they should help support it monetarily, but trying to built giving to them upon the scriptures is dishonesty at its worst coming from men and women who should know better if they claim to know the scriptures.

Dr. Don Dean

 

[Andyman_1970]

Thank you.

For the sake of clarification, I think that if people join a denominational or so-called non-denominational "church" fraternity, and reap benefit from it, then they should help support it monetarily, but trying to built giving to them upon the scriptures is dishonesty at its worst coming from men and women who should know better if they claim to know the scriptures.

Dr. Don Dean

I couldn't agree with you more.

The funny thing is, we got a letter from our pastor that I read this morning, essentially "asking" for money to help pay off our building project - one of the phrases (there were so many, this was the one that stuck out to me) was "you're never more like God than when you give"...........right, no pressure there..................I guess someone forgot to read what Paul says about giving and being pressured to give.

Anyway....................

 

[philp310man]

Do you think as a Christian you are obligated to support your church in either of time, talent or treasure?

Ron

 

[Andyman_1970]

Do you think as a Christian you are obligated to support your church in either of time,?

Since all time is God's time, and for a follower of Jesus according to Col. 3:17 everything we do we are to do in the Name of Jesus - so regardless of what I doing or where I'm at (as opposed to God's work only being done in church) I'm to be doing God's work.

talent or treasure?

Yes.

 

[Nemo0213]

I don't think its the tithe necessarilly. Its got more to do with a heart condition. If you can't bring yourself to give 10% how can you bring yourself to give all of what God wants you to give. So I see it as a lesson not only in being faithful (yes, I know there is no scriptural basis in the new testament for it), but also as a tool to break your love of money. Think about it if you have nothing to give your money to you start hording it instead. I have met quite a few people who do not tithe, they tell me they don't have too, I agree with them, they tell me that instead of tithing they give to other causes like charities or mission work. When i ask them what charities and what missions,so I can give there also, they suddenly remember they haven't given in a few months and can't remember which ones they did give to. So i believe that we aren't commanded in the NT to tithe, but it is a good spiritual discipline to learn.

 

[muffler dragon]

I don't think its the tithe necessarilly. Its got more to do with a heart condition. If you can't bring yourself to give 10% how can you bring yourself to give all of what God wants you to give. So I see it as a lesson not only in being faithful (yes, I know there is no scriptural basis in the new testament for it), but also as a tool to break your love of money. Think about it if you have nothing to give your money to you start hording it instead. I have met quite a few people who do not tithe, they tell me they don't have too, I agree with them, they tell me that instead of tithing they give to other causes like charities or mission work. When i ask them what charities and what missions,so I can give there also, they suddenly remember they haven't given in a few months and can't remember which ones they did give to. So i believe that we aren't commanded in the NT to tithe, but it is a good spiritual discipline to learn.

Whereas, I believe that the modern-day tithe doctrine has no contextual Scriptural support whatsoever.

Is it a good spiritual discipline to learn? I can't say that I necessarily agree with that either. I am not a big advocate of the "ends-justify-the-means". Since I consider the modern-day tithe doctrine bankrupt; I don't think that anything that emulates it is beneficial either. I guess I do throw the baby out with the bath water on this one.

 

[Swordman007]

I couldn't agree with you more.

The funny thing is, we got a letter from our pastor that I read this morning, essentially "asking" for money to help pay off our building project - one of the phrases (there were so many, this was the one that stuck out to me) was "you're never more like God than when you give"...........right, no pressure there..................I guess someone forgot to read what Paul says about giving and being pressured to give.

Anyway....................

It is a shame that anyone who is supposed to be knowledgable of the scriptures would perpetrate this level of dishonesty. Money given to meet needs brings reward in Heaven, where buildings do not. Loving others is infinitely more pleasing to the Lord than worthless buildings that glorify mankind and his ingenuity and economic prowess in getting people to give the largest and primary portion of their giving for such baubles.

Don

 

[Swordman007]

Do you think as a Christian you are obligated to support your church in either of time, talent or treasure?

Ron

That all depends upon how you define "church". The local Church is all the believers in each city and the surrounding locale. The local Church, therefore, is not in need of money for its own support, but there are those in each local Church who need assistance to help get their feet back on the ground.

If you are talking about institutional "church" organizations, then you are speaking of that which is not representative of the local Church in any locale. Institutional "churches" represent themselves and their denominational ageda if they have such an affiliation, and they look to their own interests and what best serves them. Organized religion is one of the main, devisive forces that keeps the Church in each locale from being unified under the Headship of Christ Jesus. If each local Church were truly unified and functional, then abortion and many of the other symptoms of our country would not be the problem that they are today.

I also realize there will be those who take great exception to such a strong statement, but I have yet to see one "church" organization that pushes for absolute unity of all believers in its locale, without any regard for its own financial well-being. Well, I cannot appologize for caring so little for that which is less than the flory of what Jesus put into motion through His own blood, sweat and tears.

Dr. Don Dean

 

[YahwehLove]

It is a shame that anyone who is supposed to be knowledgable of the scriptures would perpetrate this level of dishonesty. Money given to meet needs brings reward in Heaven, where buildings do not. Loving others is infinitely more pleasing to the Lord than worthless buildings that glorify mankind and his ingenuity and economic prowess in getting people to give the largest and primary portion of their giving for such baubles.

Don

well said

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
(Mat 23:23)

 

[Swordman007]

I don't think its the tithe necessarilly. Its got more to do with a heart condition. If you can't bring yourself to give 10% how can you bring yourself to give all of what God wants you to give.

Is this a question or an accusation? If you do not mind, would you provide for us any verse that reveals that our giving to man-made organizations that most choose to call "church" is synonymous with giving to the Lord? How do those buildings glorify the Lord? How does their absorbing the vast majority of people's giving exemplify obedience to the Word and Will of God? What can we therefore say about the heart condition of those who claim to know the word of God, and yet still teach that which is demonstratably false?

So I see it as a lesson not only in being faithful (yes, I know there is no scriptural basis in the new testament for it), but also as a tool to break your love of money.

So, what you are saying is that choosing not to give to man-made organizations is synonymous with loving money? How much more faithful is that man who gives to the family down the street whose husband and father lost his job, rather than giving to the local neighborhood "church" organization that does little to nothing for those living next door? Sorry, but this rings very hollow when one considers the track record organized religion has earned with such devotion to its building projects and operational expenditures.

Think about it if you have nothing to give your money to you start hording it instead. I have met quite a few people who do not tithe, they tell me they don't have too, I agree with them, they tell me that instead of tithing they give to other causes like charities or mission work. When i ask them what charities and what missions,so I can give there also, they suddenly remember they haven't given in a few months and can't remember which ones they did give to. So i believe that we aren't commanded in the NT to tithe, but it is a good spiritual discipline to learn.

That may be true for those who do have a problem with greed. I give some to charities, and hold most of it to build our new home, which I will be using to lend a helping hand to those in need, such as abused women and children so that they have a safe place to go for a roof over their heads and hot food to eat without having to worry about paying. It will have other uses as well that can and will be to the glory of the Lord.

Dr. Don Dean

 

[Swordman007]

Hey John,

Did you request permission from Michael Castro to present his paper?

The reason I ask is that Michael would not be able to defend anything that someone brings forth against his paper. Something to keep in mind should this proceed.

If Castro did not want his wrok to be quoted and challenged, then he should not have published it openly on the NET. Hwever, I will send him a note of invitation to engage this issue in this thread if he so chooses. If he chooses to not participate, then he is relinquishing his own defense of the arguments he put forth.

Dr. Don Dean

 

[Swordman007]

I have sent a message, inviting the author to participate in this forum if he so chooses.

Now, here is another statement in that article that creates serious problems:

Notice Genesis 14:20: "And blessed be the most High God, which has delivered your enemies into your hand. And he [Abram] gave Him [Melchisedec] tithes of all."

One will search in vain in that section of scripture where Abraham tithed on the basis of any known requirement, nor is there any indication of a continued practice by even Abraham himself, for we have reason to believe that he ever saw Melchizideck again in his earthly life. Additionally, Abraham gave a tithe of property that he knew was not his, although it was under his control. I have been amazed at the number of people who, when it is convenient, assume that Abraham's character was such that he was like the Vikings (who did not exist at that time), in that the loot belonged to the victor. The text gives no indication whatsoever that Abraham had any intention to keep the loot. In fact, we see just the opposite in his actions and words, and yet allegedly knowledgable people continue to assume just the opposite of what is clearly portrayed within the text.

He then concludes:

Today, Christ is our High Priest "of the order of Melchisedec." The priesthood was changed and the law concerning who received the tithes also changed. But the law of tithing was, and is, in effect. When Christ became our High Priest, the tithes stopped going to the Levites and started going to Christ's ministers-spiritual Levites-those in whom God is working to proclaim His gospel to this world. This is what the apostle Paul was saying in Hebrews 7. Since Christ is our High Priest with the same rank as Melchisedec, and the Levites received tithes, how much the more should Christ receive them?

This falls within the fallacies of False Analogy, and Non-Sequitur (it does not follow). The context had to do with Christ being our High Priest, utilizing the tithe as the measure, not at all stated as an ongoing requirement in and of itself. It is utterly fallacisou to assume a particular to be applied in general without any direct, supporting statement to that effect, which in this case, is completely absent from the text.

Dr. Don Dean

 

[muffler dragon]

If Castro did not want his wrok to be quoted and challenged, then he should not have published it openly on the NET. Hwever, I will send him a note of invitation to engage this issue in this thread if he so chooses. If he chooses to not participate, then he is relinquishing his own defense of the arguments he put forth.

Dr. Don Dean

I have conversed with Michael about this issue. JSynon got this work from me. That's why I asked.

Furthermore, Michael cannot post in this forum regarding the thread, because he is Jewish. Therefore, your invitation is in vain. Besides, I am not quite sure what it would matter as I've not read any dissension regarding his work in this thread.

 

[muffler dragon]

I have sent a message, inviting the author to participate in this forum if he so chooses.

Now, here is another statement in that article that creates serious problems:


One will search in vain in that section of scripture where Abraham tithed on the basis of any known requirement, nor is there any indication of a continued practice by even Abraham himself, for we have reason to believe that he ever saw Melchizideck again in his earthly life. Additionally, Abraham gave a tithe of property that he knew was not his, although it was under his control. I have been amazed at the number of people who, when it is convenient, assume that Abraham's character was such that he was like the Vikings (who did not exist at that time), in that the loot belonged to the victor. The text gives no indication whatsoever that Abraham had any intention to keep the loot. In fact, we see just the opposite in his actions and words, and yet allegedly knowledgable people continue to assume just the opposite of what is clearly portrayed within the text.

He then concludes:


This falls within the fallacies of False Analogy, and Non-Sequitur (it does not follow). The context had to do with Christ being our High Priest, utilizing the tithe as the measure, not at all stated as an ongoing requirement in and of itself. It is utterly fallacisou to assume a particular to be applied in general without any direct, supporting statement to that effect, which in this case, is completely absent from the text.

Dr. Don Dean

You may or may not be aware of this, so I'll put it forth bluntly. Michael's paper does not support the modern-day tithe doctrine.

I have skimmed through the entire piece. I haven't dissected it, because I know what his basic premise boils down to. Plus it's a matter of having another person's perspective. I have three things that I email upon request to people regarding the tithe. I have a couple more that I do not send.

All in all, I have all the bases covered regarding any part of the tithe that people want to discuss: pre-Torah, Torah, and present (without Torah through Christian eyes).

 

[YahwehLove]

It is utterly fallacisou to assume a particular to be applied in general without any direct, supporting statement to that effect, which in this case, is completely absent from the text.

Mind if I use this in another thread ?
It seems to be an epidemic

 

[JSynon]

Yeah. I've emailed it to quite a few folks on the forum.

Thank you very much muffler. You say you have three things that you email to people, but I only remember you sending me two: that paper and a tithe summary text file. Would you mind sending the other one to JSynon@yahoo.com?

If Christians insist on following the Levitical Law they would have to find Levite Priests that serve in the Temple Sanctuary to give their tithes of animals, fruit and grain (mint, dill, and cummin). When was the last time you dropped this in the offering plate?

Today I was talking with my girlfriend's brother-in-law and he claims that the tithe that went to the Levites should now go toward the advancement of the Church. He explained that they tithed animals, fruit, and grain back then because that was their bartering material, whereas now we use money and should tithe money. Could you please explain why this and the statement in the OP is fallacious?

One last claim he makes involved Matthew 22 when Jesus told the Pharisees to render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's. He claims that this "rendering to God" is our tithe.

It is hard convincing him otherwise, anything I could show him would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Swordman007]

Today I was talking with my girlfriend's brother-in-law and he claims that the tithe that went to the Levites should now go toward the advancement of the Church. He explained that they tithed animals, fruit, and grain back then because that was their bartering material, whereas now we use money and should tithe money. Could you please explain why this and the statement in the OP is fallacious?

When Israel was waiting on the other side of the river from the "Promised Land," ask him how the prostitutes were paid for their services if gold and silver were not in use at that time. What did they do, bring in a sack of groceries? I would agree that a goat or some other items of value may have been accepted, but the idea that there was no other system of exchange is a denial of what we do know about the ancient economies of that era.

One last claim he makes involved Matthew 22 when Jesus told the Pharisees to render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's. He claims that this "rendering to God" is our tithe.

Well, then, your friend has a problem on his hands. Read the text once again, and you will see the question put forth was not at all about tithes, but about taxes (tribute). What he is perpetrating is termed eisegesis rather than exegesis, for one will give himself a migraine trying to find a parellel between the context and tithing.

What was to be rendered unto God is obedience. The way Jesus stated His words makes it clear that what was to be rendered unto Caesar was to given to him (the money in Jesus' hands), and what was to be rendered unto the Lord was to be given to Him. That defies the idea that money was at all the object(s) of Jesus' words. We will recall that the Lord declared that He preferreed mercy and justice to the stench of the sacrifices. It is interesting how some people will rely upon the spiritual substance of Jesus' words when it is convenient, but when money is involved, and/or their own ideology, they suddenly become quite material in their view of the Master's words.

Also, Jesus was addressing a people who were still under the obligations of the Law. What about all those people living in the cities who did not have lands, orchards, or herds? Did they pay tithes? Did the cerpenter give one table out of every ten to the Levite? Not at all. Did he give a tenth of all his sales to the Levite. Not at all.....at least, he was not required to do so in accordance with the Law. The tithe was strictly produce and herds, not money, even though money DID exist at that time, and was put into the offering box.

Here is another consideration that most people never think to address. WAGES. What is one's wage? It is not increase, but rather a direct exchange of one's labors and time for money. Right? How, then, did this truth get twisted into one's wage(s) being reclassified as increase by organized religion? This is purely roman catholic in origin. Most people are so lacking in critical thinking skills, unlike the Bereans, that they have never given this any thought. When it really comes down to it, most hard laborers do not get what they are actually worth, so they are actually losing, and yet they are targets of organized relgion parading itself as being the "work of God". Organized religion is mostly self-seeking, self-absorbed, and self-centered. It stands upon the integrity of God's word in the minds of the ignorant masses, and yet there is not one shred of evidence we can observe within the actions of organized religion that they do with the tithe what is not only demanded within the word of God, but also consistent with the example put forth therein.

Paul, when speaking of the itinerant Church planter, made the case for such a man being worthy of partaking of the fruit of his labors, of which we can all agree, but that did not include the massive resources being blown for real estate, architecture, sound equipment, the creation of the "clergy" class, etc., etc.

If you have any other questions, then fire away. Every argument I have seen in favor of tithing today, outside of personal choice, are demonstratably nothing more than little boats with large holes in their hull.

Dr. Don Dean

 

[lovemysoldier]

In no way do I claim to be an expert in theology, I just want to share my two cents. I believe that Jesus taught and encouraged tithing. I believe that His teachings on the subject of tithing is clearly demonstrated in the story of the ten servants and in the chapter about the widow’s offering.

Luke 19:11-27 (New Living Translation)

Story of the Ten Servants

11The crowd was listening to everything Jesus said. And because he was nearing Jerusalem, he told a story to correct the impression that the Kingdom of God would begin right away. 12He said, "A nobleman was called away to a distant empire to be crowned king and then return. 13Before he left, he called together ten servants and gave them ten pounds of silver[a] to invest for him while he was gone. 14But his people hated him and sent a delegation after him to say they did not want him to be their king.

15"When he returned, the king called in the servants to whom he had given the money. He wanted to find out what they had done with the money and what their profits were. 16The first servant reported a tremendous gain--ten times as much as the original amount! 17`Well done!' the king exclaimed. `You are a trustworthy servant. You have been faithful with the little I entrusted to you, so you will be governor of ten cities as your reward.'

18"The next servant also reported a good gain--five times the original amount. 19`Well done!' the king said. `You can be governor over five cities.'

20"But the third servant brought back only the original amount of money and said, `I hid it and kept it safe. 21I was afraid because you are a hard man to deal with, taking what isn't yours and harvesting crops you didn't plant.'

22" `You wicked servant!' the king roared. `Hard, am I? If you knew so much about me and how tough I am, 23why didn't you deposit the money in the bank so I could at least get some interest on it?' 24Then turning to the others standing nearby, the king ordered, `Take the money from this servant, and give it to the one who earned the most.'

25" `But, master,' they said, `that servant has enough already!'

26" `Yes,' the king replied, `but to those who use well what they are given, even more will be given. But from those who are unfaithful,[b] even what little they have will be taken away. 27And now about these enemies of mine who didn't want me to be their king--bring them in and execute them right here in my presence.' "

Jesus also complimented the tithing practices of an old widow in the following passage:

http://www.gospelcom.net/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=29

Luke 21:1-4

The Widows Offering

1While Jesus was in the Temple, he watched the rich people putting their gifts into the collection box. 2Then a poor widow came by and dropped in two pennies.[a] 3"I assure you," he said, "this poor widow has given more than all the rest of them. 4For they have given a tiny part of their surplus, but she, poor as she is, has given everything she has."

 

[YahwehLove]

Jesus also complimented the tithing practices of an old widow in the following passage:

Buts thats just the point.
She didnt tithe.
she gave ALL she had.

THAT attitude is NT giving.
The tithe passed with the old covenant