Tithing

[lovemysoldier]

Buts thats just the point.
She didnt tithe.
she gave ALL she had.

THAT attitude is NT giving.
The tithe passed with the old covenant

Good post! Yes it is true, she gave all that she had to God's Kingdom. We could all learn a lot from this woman. We should give without measure and with joyful hearts.

Acts 2:43-47 (New Living Translation)

The Believers Meet Together

43A deep sense of awe came over them all, and the apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders. 44And all the believers met together constantly and shared everything they had. 45They sold their possessions and shared the proceeds with those in need. 46They worshiped together at the Temple each day, met in homes for the Lord's Supper, and shared their meals with great joy and generosity-- 47all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their group those who were being saved.

 

[JSynon]

What he is perpetrating is termed eisegesis rather than exegesis

Exactly, thank you for your comments Dr. Dean.

lovemysoldier, I do not think that parable has anything to do with tithing.

 

[Swordman007]

In no way do I claim to be an expert in theology, I just want to share my two cents. I believe that Jesus taught and encouraged tithing. I believe that His teachings on the subject of tithing is clearly demonstrated in the story of the ten servants and in the chapter about the widow’s offering.

Understood. However, I would like to ask you a question, if I may: Could we ever expect Jesus to have done anything BUT uphold the Law, including the tithe? He was here to fulfill the Law, not to destroy it. For Him to fulfill it, He was bound by purpose to uphold ALL the Law, not just portions of it. He was not yet dealing with that which was yet to come, which was to be what we now call the New Covenant.

Don

 

[muffler dragon]

Thank you very much muffler. You say you have three things that you email to people, but I only remember you sending me two: that paper and a tithe summary text file. Would you mind sending the other one to JSynon@yahoo.com?
Today I was talking with my girlfriend's brother-in-law and he claims that the tithe that went to the Levites should now go toward the advancement of the Church. He explained that they tithed animals, fruit, and grain back then because that was their bartering material, whereas now we use money and should tithe money. Could you please explain why this and the statement in the OP is fallacious?

Swordman already dealt with this briefly, but I figured I would give you another portion of Scripture to show that his logic does not fit the mold.

Deuteronomy 14
22"You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year.


23"You shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and your flock, so that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.


24"If the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the LORD your God chooses to set His name is too far away from you when the LORD your God blesses you,


25then you shall exchange it for money, and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses.


26"You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.


27"Also you shall not neglect the Levite who is in your town, for he has no portion or inheritance among you.


28"At the end of every third year you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in that year, and shall deposit it in your town.


29"The Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance among you, and the alien, the orphan and the widow who are in your town, shall come and eat and be satisfied, in order that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.

Couple points:

1) the tithe could be exchanged for money for travel purposes. Therefore, money existed at the time of the tithe.
2) this passage is about a celebration that people would party with their own tithe.
Think about how many times that's been preached from the pulpit.

One last claim he makes involved Matthew 22 when Jesus told the Pharisees to render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's. He claims that this "rendering to God" is our tithe.

It's all about context, John. Context is something that your brother-in-law does not have.

Context meaning:

1) the tithe was not money.
2) the tithe was instituted for sustenance for the Levitical priesthood who could not own property or livestock. The L-rd was their inheritance.

It is hard convincing him otherwise, anything I could show him would be greatly appreciated.

If your brother-in-law doesn't want to listen or isn't open to convincing; then I suggest you drop it. There's no point in it. He will feel justified regardless. The thing about tithing is that it can become an elitist position of sorts.

Best wishes.

m.d.

 

[muffler dragon]

In no way do I claim to be an expert in theology, I just want to share my two cents. I believe that Jesus taught and encouraged tithing. I believe that His teachings on the subject of tithing is clearly demonstrated in the story of the ten servants and in the chapter about the widow’s offering.

Dear lovemysoldier:

The story of the ten servants has nothing to do with tithing; especially concerning a Judaic perspective.

Regarding the widow's offering. You will note:

1) It is not called a tithe.
2) However, the tithe was still present during the time of Y'shua (Jesus), because the Temple was still standing.

With the Temple standing, the Levitical priesthood were performing services and thus the tithe stood at that time.

m.d.

 

[JSynon]

Thank you for your comments muffler.

2) the tithe was instituted for sustenance for the Levitical priesthood who could not own property or livestock. The L-rd was their inheritance.

The way he sees it is that without our tithes today the Church would not be able to accomplish what they do: help the poor, participate in local and global outreaches, etc. (and in some cases build unnecessarily large "church buildings").

Again, thank you for your comments and that last article you sent me. Oh, and by the way, my name is Joshua, not John.

 

[muffler dragon]

Thank you for your comments muffler.
The way he sees it is that without our tithes today the Church would not be able to accomplish what they do: help the poor, participate in local and global outreaches, etc. (and in some cases build unnecessarily large "church buildings").

Feel free to let him know that there are other forms of giving: offerings and almsgiving. I have no problem with either of those.

Again, thank you for your comments and that last article you sent me. Oh, and by the way, my name is Joshua, not John.

I am terribly sorry. I don't know why my brain was stuck on that. I am very sorry, Joshua.

m.d.

 

[Andyman_1970]

It is a shame that anyone who is supposed to be knowledgable of the scriptures would perpetrate this level of dishonesty.

The sad thing is even though he's been to seminary, learning Hebrew and Greek and what not - he would totally disagree with my point of view.

Money given to meet needs brings reward in Heaven, where buildings do not. Loving others is infinitely more pleasing to the Lord than worthless buildings that glorify mankind and his ingenuity and economic prowess in getting people to give the largest and primary portion of their giving for such baubles.

I couldn't agree more - loving others IS how you Love God.

My wife and I after some serious prayer and contemplation - stopped giving to the building fund and now specify our offering to go to the benevolence fund only.

 

[Swordman007]

Swordman already dealt with this briefly, but I figured I would give you another portion of Scripture to show that his logic does not fit the mold.

Does not fit what mold? That sounds rather cryptic. Which mold are you talking about, the pro-tither's mold or the anti-tither's mold?

Couple points:

1) the tithe could be exchanged for money for travel purposes. Therefore, money existed at the time of the tithe.

I was going to point this out, but could not do so on account of typing time restrictions.

2) this passage is about a celebration that people would party with their own tithe. Think about how many times that's been preached from the pulpit.

Never. At least, I have never heard it talked about from any "preacher" seeking to "fleece the sheep" of what they could otherwise give to legitimate causes that glorify the Lord.

1) the tithe was not money.
2) the tithe was instituted for sustenance for the Levitical priesthood who could not own property or livestock. The L-rd was their inheritance.

You left out three other important groups who also benefitted from the tithe, which are the orphans, widows, and strangers.

If your brother-in-law doesn't want to listen or isn't open to convincing; then I suggest you drop it. There's no point in it. He will feel justified regardless. The thing about tithing is that it can become an elitist position of sorts.

That fella's understanding of scripture is based upon an emotional appeal that, in most cases, ends up giving the individual the feeling that he has license to settle upon his interpretation, even though it is realistically a misinterpretation. I have learned to never underestimate the power of the emotion that is dished out from pulpits around the world, emotion that is routinely mistaken for the leading of the Holy Spirit by the masses who refuse to engage critical thinking against anything they are spoon-fed from their "pastor".

This tragedy, unfortunately, will continue till the end of time.

Don

 

[muffler dragon]

Does not fit what mold? That sounds rather cryptic. Which mold are you talking about, the pro-tither's mold or the anti-tither's mold?

Not meant to be cryptic whatsoever. I was simply showing Scripture that does not support a pro-tithe doctrine.

You left out three other important groups who also benefitted from the tithe, which are the orphans, widows, and strangers.

This wasn't done out of ignorance, but instead, because we're talking about how the "church" will try to incorporate the tithe for the clergy or operational costs of the church. The orphans, widows, and foreigners in your midst are all taken care of through almsgiving as well. That's why I do not always incorporate. Whereas, regarding the Levites: they had the tithes and the sacrificial offerings.

That fella's understanding of scripture is based upon an emotional appeal that, in most cases, ends up giving the individual the feeling that he has license to settle upon his interpretation, even though it is realistically a misinterpretation. I have learned to never underestimate the power of the emotion that is dished out from pulpits around the world, emotion that is routinely mistaken for the leading of the Holy Spirit by the masses who refuse to engage critical thinking against anything they are spoon-fed from their "pastor".

This tragedy, unfortunately, will continue till the end of time.

Don

Oh-so-very true.

 

[YahwehLove]

Dear lovemysoldier:

The story of the ten servants has nothing to do with tithing; especially concerning a Judaic perspective.

Regarding the widow's offering. You will note:

1) It is not called a tithe.
2) However, the tithe was still present during the time of Y'shua (Jesus), because the Temple was still standing.

With the Temple standing, the Levitical priesthood were performing services and thus the tithe stood at that time.

m.d.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
(Luk 16:16)

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men seize it. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
(Mat 11:12-13)

The Law WAS until John.
Do you think that we could take Islam from the Muslim and they wold all just let it die instantly?
The tithe continued becuase the Jewish people who didnt accept their christ didnt know it was all over for their covenant.

 

[Swordman007]

The way he sees it is that without our tithes today the Church would not be able to accomplish what they do: help the poor, participate in local and global outreaches, etc. (and in some cases build unnecessarily large "church buildings").

It looks like you first need to get the definitions of key words straightened out before getting any deeper into the tithe issue. He obviously has a messed up understanding of what the Church truly is in relation to scripture's definition versus the false understanding drilled into people's heads by organized religion over a period of about 1700+ years.

Individual congregations are not representative of the local Church. They are nothing more than man-made fraternities when one considers the division they so aptly maintain within the local Church. The local Church is ALL the believers within a given locale, such as a city and its immediate surrounding area. I have never seen an institutional "church" organization at all represent all the believers in any given city or town. Have you? I also have yet to see any local Church assemble together here in America, therefore being an expression of the unity Christ Jesus prayed would exist in not only our inner reality, but also the outward expression of His body.

Your brother-in-law is correct, in that organized religion cannot survive without money. None of us was suggesting that people stop supporting their man-made organization, but that the primary portion of their giving go to meet the needs that are genuine, not contrived within architecture and program-based needs.

Don

 

[Swordman007]

The Law WAS until John.
Do you think that we could take Islam from the Muslim and they wold all just let it die instantly?
The tithe continued becuase the Jewish people who didnt accept their christ didnt know it was all over for their covenant.

A false perception on the part of the Jews does not govern the continuance of the Law of tithes. It is impossible for the Jews to legitimately continue the system of tithes without the existence of the temple, for the tithe is tied directly to that place, and without it, they have no storehouse. I realize the people had storehouses on their farms/ranches that was cleaned out every third year (if I recall correctly) by the Levite, but they are no longer situated to carry out the requirements of the Law, except, perhaps. in a symbolic, ceremonial manner.

 

[YahwehLove]

Your brother-in-law is correct, in that organized religion cannot survive without money. None of us was suggesting that people stop supporting their man-made organization, but that the primary portion of their giving go to meet the needs that are genuine, not contrived within architecture and program-based needs.

Amen.
It shows that man who teaches the gospel is to make his living from the gospel.
And that elders are worthy of double honor.
Then I see gifts being taken up to give to Jerusalem.

I love this little passage.
It really shows the heart of things where money is concerned.

For if the eagerness is present, it is acceptable according to what one has, and not according to what one does not have.

For it is not that others may have ease, but you trouble; but by equality in the present time; your abundance for their need, that their abundance also may be for your need; so that there may be equality; as it is written, "He gathering much, he had nothing left over; and he gathering little did not have less."
(2Co 8:12-15)

If the church did that, I doubt there would be any hungry.
Altho there wouldnt be 3 churches per block in the US either.

 

[YahwehLove]

A false perception on the part of the Jews does not govern the continuance of the Law of tithes. It is impossible for the Jews to legitimately continue the system of tithes without the existence of the temple, for the tithe is tied directly to that place, and without it, they have no storehouse. I realize the people had storehouses on their farms/ranches that was cleaned out every third year (if I recall correctly) by the Levite, but they are no longer situated to carry out the requirements of the Law, except, perhaps. in a symbolic, ceremonial manner.

I understand this from THEIR perspective and agree.
But the fact is that the covenant which required a compulsory tithe was nailed to the cross with Christ.

Proof of this is that no tithe is ever taught or prcticed by the chruch in the NT.

 

[lovemysoldier]

I am not an expert on tithing and would like to learn more if everyone would care to explain and/or share with me their beliefs. I believe that tithing isn't required but encouraged by God. My worldy wealth and gifts were given to me on loan from our creator to invest in His glory and Kingdom. Just like in the story of the ten servants, the servants that God blessed were expected to use their gifts for the glory of God. To whom much is given much is expected. The first Christian church shared all that they had with each other and with the needy. This selfless love was everything that Jesus represented to me. If we are called to love and serve each other, how can it realistically be done without money? Wouldn't it be better to give a needy person food or money instead of telling them that they will be in our prayers? The law doesn't force me to give, God's love drives me to.

 

[muffler dragon]

I am not an expert on tithing and would like to learn more if everyone would care to explain and/or share with me their beliefs. I believe that tithing isn't required but encouraged by God. My worldy wealth and gifts were given to me on loan from our creator to invest in His glory and Kingdom. Just like in the story of the ten servants, the servants that God blessed were expected to use their gifts for the glory of God. To whom much is given much is expected. The first Christian church shared all that they had with each other and with the needy. This selfless love was everything that Jesus represented to me. If we are called to love and serve each other, how can it realistically be done without money? Wouldn't it be better to give a needy person food or money instead of telling them that they will be in our prayers? The law doesn't force me to give, God's love drives me to.

Everything that you write above, lovemysoldier, has absolutely nothing to do with the tithe or the modern-day doctrine that is taught from the pulpit.

You are giving out of the pricking of your conscience, and that is simply a matter of obedience. Offerings, gifts, and almsgiving are all a part of the puzzle nowadays. The tithe is not.

The tithe was instituted to provide sustenance primarily for the Levitical priesthood, who were in service at the Temple. They were not allowed to own property or livestock, because G-d was their inheritance. Therefore, the tithe of the Jewish people were brought to the Temple for the Levites to survive.

Furthermore, the tithe is never money. The only time tithe and money are in the same sentence in the Tanakh ("Old' Testament) is when the tithe is exchanged for money in order to travel long distances.

If you would really like to delve into this further, then I would welcome anything you ask in a PM.

Have a pleasant evening.

m.d.

 

[lovemysoldier]

Everything that you write above, lovemysoldier, has absolutely nothing to do with the tithe or the modern-day doctrine that is taught from the pulpit.

You are giving out of the pricking of your conscience, and that is simply a matter of obedience. Offerings, gifts, and almsgiving are all a part of the puzzle nowadays. The tithe is not.

The tithe was instituted to provide sustenance primarily for the Levitical priesthood, who were in service at the Temple. They were not allowed to own property or livestock, because G-d was their inheritance. Therefore, the tithe of the Jewish people were brought to the Temple for the Levites to survive.

Furthermore, the tithe is never money. The only time tithe and money are in the same sentence in the Tanakh ("Old' Testament) is when the tithe is exchanged for money in order to travel long distances.

If you would really like to delve into this further, then I would welcome anything you ask in a PM.

Have a pleasant evening.

m.d.

Please explain to me why you found my beliefs unfounded? I really want to know so I can grow stronger in my faith. God's love is what should drive people to help the church and their fellow man, not the desire to obey a law. My intention of my previous post was to illustrate that God wants us to serve our fellow man with love and vigor the way Jesus did for us, using all of the gifts and resources available. Isn't that the essence of what tithing is about? To give and love without measure to God's people and for God's cause?

 

[JSynon]

I am terribly sorry. I don't know why my brain was stuck on that. I am very sorry, Joshua.

No problem muffler, take care.

 

[muffler dragon]

Did you read my post above?

My intention of my previous post was to illustrate that God wants us to serve our fellow man with love and vigor the way Jesus did for us, using all of the gifts and resources available.

I think this is a great desire.

Isn't that the essence of what tithing is about? To give and love without measure to God's people and for God's cause?

No, that is not what the tithe is about. The tithe was a form of sustenance for a people that could not have such without it. And the tithe was never currency: it was always livestock or produce. What you can do with your resources is give as gifts, offerings, and almsgiving. Do you understand the differences that I am presenting?

m.d.