Tithing to crooked churches

cloudyday2 · Jul 31, 2017

juvenissun said:
You still do not learn (a pattern I learned pretty fast).
Follow your analogy (which is not an appropriate one), tithing should be like paying tax. Do you know how is your tax money used?

Governments publish how they spend tax revenues. It is 100% transparent - with the exception of the secret programs that are often concealed within the budgets of public programs.

Hank77 · Jul 31, 2017

juvenissun said:
Follow your analogy (which is not an appropriate one), tithing should be like paying tax.

Why do you believe that?

juvenissun · Jul 31, 2017

Hank77 said:
Why do you believe that?

I don't.
It is an inappropriate analogy.

juvenissun · Jul 31, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
Governments publish how they spend tax revenues. It is 100% transparent

What if a government does not do that? What can you do about it?
If a church does not do that, what can you do about it?

Understand the nature of tithing and stop complaining.

dysert · Jul 31, 2017

You should try to find out if the church is really crooked. I would not tithe - or even attend - a crooked church.

dzheremi · Jul 31, 2017

Any church or other organization that expects you to give to them without being honest about where the money is going strikes me as very shady. I not only would not give to such an organization, I would also explain to the relevant authorities why I do not feel comfortable giving, so that they may either open their books to everyone or live without my money.

If you're above the board, you don't need to hide anything, and if you aren't, you don't deserve anything anyway.

cloudyday2 · Jul 31, 2017

dysert said:
You should try to find out if the church is really crooked. I would not tithe - or even attend - a crooked church.

Unfortunately there is no smoking gun without openness. A church member would prefer to believe that the church is operating honestly, so there is a tendency to ignore what should be obvious warning signs - such as the secrecy and autocracy in their finances and decision making.

In the case of my family, we were converts to Eastern Orthodoxy so we weren't sure what was normal and abnormal in that denomination. That has been another factor in my family's willingness to go with the flow for 20 years. I have talked to EO members on CF, and apparently this is abnormal.

cloudyday2 · Jul 31, 2017

juvenissun said:
What if a government does not do that? What can you do about it?
If a church does not do that, what can you do about it?

Understand the nature of tithing and stop complaining.

That attitude might have made since in the Middle Ages when a Christian had no choice in his/her church and no input into the church's management. Today is different. We choose our church and denomination. Most churches are managed by the congregation through elected board members with open budgets. (Maybe this isn't true of the Catholic Church to the same degree - IDK) To have this fatalistic, thrall-like attitude about the church's finances seems absurd after having carefully picked-out a church from a buffet of options.

ViaCrucis · Jul 31, 2017

RDKirk said:
This is an important point. Jews today do not "tithe."

That's because they actually know what the Law says (and the Law is extremely detailed about tithing), and they know that under today's circumstances, they can't obey the Law on tithing.

So Jews have not just made up something and called it "tithing." They admit, "We ain't tithing" and pray for forgiveness for not doing what was commanded.

What Christian churches call "tithing" is totally pulled out of thin air. No such practice is given in scripture. God described the practice of "tithing" in very precise terms, and He never described anything different and called it "tithing."

God never changed His OT definition of the tithe. Nowhere does Jesus ever say, "Moses commanded you to tithe in that way, but I tell you to tithe in this way...."

It should be remembered that during the writing of the New Testament, Jews were still doing OT tithing in Jerusalem and the Church was using the OT as scripture. If Peter or Paul or John had ever said, "We must tithe," that would have been the OT practice that was still going on. So they never said "tithe," nor did they ever describe a practice for the Church anything like it.

What they did practice (with plenty of NT witness) was giving until everyone's needs were met.

Agreed. The Church historically has taught that generous giving is what matters; those who have help out those who have not. And in the past such offerings did not consist solely of money, but often goods: food, clothes, and other necessities which could then be distributed for the needs of the Faithful and the community at large.

Today money is the chief means of offering because most people live in urban societies--relatively few of us are baking, cooking, growing crops, or making clothes; but we do often donate food and clothing.

The point of offerings in a Christian context is not to satisfy the legal requirement of the tithe; but rather loving and compassionate service to one another as the Body of Christ and for the good of our neighbor.

Which is precisely why churches which refuse to be transparent about their finances should be held with suspicion. There's no good reason I can think of to keep that hidden.

-CryptoLutheran

Arthra · Aug 5, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
From a religious perspective, is tithing to a crooked church an act of obedience to God? Does the tither have a responsibility to ensure that the church is using the money in a way that would please God?

Baha'is don't "tithe" but we do contribute and treasurers provide receipts as well as sharing how the contributions are used. We can also earmark contributions for specific purposes.

It's possible there are penalties involved for religious bodies that are misusing their funds:

http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6334&context=jclc

cloudyday2 · Aug 5, 2017

Arthra said:
It's possible there are penalties involved for religious bodies that are misusing their funds:

http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6334&context=jclc

Thanks, I hadn't thought of the legal aspects, but it makes sense that the tax exemptions make this an issue.

cloudyday2 · Aug 5, 2017

BTW, I think I have finally persuaded my mother to give her 10% to charities that have positive ratings for open finances and efficient use of donations.

If God exists, then I think He would want people to invest their donations to help the needy instead of to strengthen a religious institution. Obviously churches need some money too to allow people to gather and perform the desired rituals, but too much of that is spent on fancy candlesticks and so forth.

Of course if God doesn't exist, then we might as well invest our donations to help the needy.

RDKirk · Aug 5, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
BTW, I think I have finally persuaded my mother to give her 10% to charities that have positive ratings for open finances and efficient use of donations.

If God exists, then I think He would want people to invest their donations to help the needy instead of to strengthen a religious institution. Obviously churches need some money too to allow people to gather and perform the desired rituals, but too much of that is spent on fancy candlesticks and so forth.

Of course if God doesn't exist, then we might as well invest our donations to help the needy.

If the congregation is doing what it's supposed to be doing, that should involve far more than rituals:

And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. -- Acts 2

Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. -- Acts 4

I was a member of a congregation in Honolulu where the pastor vowed to carry out that "guarantee," saying up front, "No member of this congregation will ever worry about where to live, what to eat, or what to wear. We will make sure those needs are met for every faithful member."

And the Holy Spirit caused members of that congregation to give generously and gladly. That's how it's supposed to work.

cloudyday2 · Aug 5, 2017

RDKirk said:
If the congregation is doing what it's supposed to be doing, that should involve far more than rituals:

And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. -- Acts 2

Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. -- Acts 4

I was a member of a congregation in Honolulu where the pastor vowed to carry out that "guarantee," saying up front, "No member of this congregation will ever worry about where to live, what to eat, or what to wear. We will make sure those needs are met for every faithful member."

And the Holy Spirit caused members of that congregation to give generously and gladly. That's how it's supposed to work.

Wow! That is surprising that you guys were able to make it work.

Tithing to crooked churches

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