Tithing - Another View

[BeforeThereWas]

Actually, my experience with you the last few days has taught me that the only thing you're interested in is proving that you are right.

Nope. I'm here to prove that God's word is right, moreso than your subjective experiences that contradict what is written in God's word. You can call it my interpretation all you want, but at least I quoted the relevant passages that have clear application to what I was saying, because if they didn't, then there are those in this thread who would have already had me nailed to the wall, and rightfully so. I welcome people nailing me to the wall if it can be shown that I am clearly in the wrong. Your protests, on the other hand, have been mostly sails with no wind behind them.

You are not interested in a relationship with the Father.

That's the only relationship that makes life worth living, so you are once again wrong. That stack is getting awfully high. You should be choking by now, but you keep piling it on.

You are simply interested in you're point of view of what you think the scriptures say.

Is that right? I suppose the evidence for this statement is proven back when I said "...correct me if I'm wrong." Those are not the words of someone who's only interested in their own view. Getting deeper yet... They don't make boots high enough to stay above this...

You can't even fathom that maybe you in your own understanding could be wrong.

Sure I could be wrong, but you haven't shown us anything with any substance behind it for proving whether it be true or not.

You're more interested in the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil than you are the Tree of Life.

(yawn) This monologue is somewhat boring.

You are an either incredibly ignorant, or willingly deceitful. I haven't figured out which.

Is this supposed to mean something?

You like to twist what I post to make it sound much worse, in many cases putting words into my mouth that I've never said.

Right. The evidence for your accusation is in the fact that I quote you directly, and you do not quote me verbatim and discuss what's wrong. Sheesh! The least you could do is get your fact straight.

A martyr? A martyr is one who suffers for the sake of principle. You think because you post a bunch of drivel and slander me that I'm suffering?

No. I didn't say that you are suffering. I made specific mention of a phenomenon known as "martyr syndrome." I didn't put that word in your mouth.

On the contrary my friend. Jesus told me to rejoice when people persecute me and speak all kinds of evil against me because of him. I'm throwing a party over here!

So you admit to thinking that you are being persecuted because of Jesus? The believers who were put to death in Rome would have a hayday with you and your persecution complex.

I never said experiences are above the word of God. That is a blatant LIE. I said experiences are important. JESUS said experiences were important. Why do you need to slander me and accuse me of things I never said? I would like you to show me where I said that.

Ok. Here we go again. Post #92:

So where is the explanation for all of my experience with tithing?

You stated over and over that you do this on the basis of your experience, and you also stated your unwillingness to consider what I showed that the very word of God teaches in the Bible because of your experience. Now, one doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to put two and two together here and see quite clearly the comparative level of importance that your experience holds in your thinking. I never said tithing was wrong, only that handing it over to organized religion that abuses it is wrong. I demonstrated from scripture that the first fruits, tithe, primary portion, or whatever you want to call it, ALL (100%) went for the meeting of needs. You poo-pooed all that based upon your subjective experiences. Now, how hard is it to figure out just how high a pedestal you have placed your experiences, and that you have pitted them against the clear teachings of the Bible?

Other people have debated the issues with me. You like to assasinate my character. That tells me all I need to know about you.

Here is the "martyr syndrome" again. When you use overly strong terminology like "assasinate", (which is a gross exageration) that speaks quite clearly of a complex that brinks on the border of a psychotic syndrome that clearly is imbalanced. Your character might very well be a fine one. However, your tactics are, by far, less than admirable.

BTW

 

[probinson]

Nope. I'm here to prove that God's word is right...

Because I'm sure God needs YOU to prove that His word is right.

Right. The evidence for your accusation is in the fact that I quote you directly, and you do not quote me verbatim and discuss what's wrong. Sheesh! The least you could do is get your fact straight.

You quote me directly? Show me a direct quote where I said experiences are more important than God's word.

Emphasis added-

..and you also stated your unwillingness to consider what I showed...

YOU showed me something and I won't believe YOU. That makes me so unwilling. I don't care what YOU show me. I only care what GOD shows me.

Now, one doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to put two and two together here and see quite clearly the comparative level of importance that your experience holds in your thinking.

Sure. My experience holds a lot more weight than what YOU say. I won't deny that.

I never said tithing was wrong, only that handing it over to organized religion that abuses it is wrong. I demonstrated from scripture that the first fruits, tithe, primary portion, or whatever you want to call it, ALL (100%) went for the meeting of needs.

You never said tithing was wrong? Huh? Talk about getting deep...

And how does a church know what the "primary portion" or the "firstfruits" are? If I give, say $100. How does the church know what is the "primary portion"? Should I have to tell the church my annual income so that they can calculate my primary portion so that they don't use "one red cent" for something else?

You poo-pooed all that based upon your subjective experiences.

I poo-pooed? I said far more money that comes into our church goes to help people than does for upkeep of the building. We own the building and the acres of land it sits on. I see thousands, not hundreds, thousands of dollars used to buy people groceries, pay their utility bills, make mortgage payments so people don't lose their homes. Our church membership at the moment stands at 30, most of which are older widows. And God gives us the ability to do all of this based on the faithful tithes and offerings of our members. It is well known in our small town that if you need help, you should call our church. Even people from other churches call our church when they need help. We're using more than the primary portion of our giving to help others. As I said before, this argument does not apply to me personally because our church is not misappropriating funds.

Now, how hard is it to figure out just how high a pedestal you have placed your experiences, and that you have pitted them against the clear teachings of the Bible?

Oh I see the problem here. You think that your opinion is the same thing as the clear teachings of the Bible. I respectfully disagree.

Here is the "martyr syndrome" again. When you use overly strong terminology like "assasinate", (which is a gross exageration) that speaks quite clearly of a complex that brinks on the border of a psychotic syndrome that clearly is imbalanced. Your character might very well be a fine one. However, your tactics are, by far, less than admirable.

So what is it, BTW? Am I a martyr like you originally said, or am I exhibiting some kind of "psychotic martyr syndrome"? My tactics are less than admirable? I think if you take a look back through the posts, you'll find that you are the one throwing out personal attacks. And since you completely blew it off the first time, I'll post this again:

You're more interested in the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil than you are the Tree of Life.

 

[lismore]

Anyway, there are principles within scripture that are sometimes caused to suffer at the hands of unscriptural principles, or at the hands of each other. One fella some years ago bragged to me about one of his elders whose family was living without electricity and gas to their house because he was a "faithful tither." Well, this "principle" he set for himself was casusing other principles in scripture to suffer at the hands of this one, namely 1 Tim. 5:8.


HK

I can relate to that. 20 years ago my mother went into debt because of the tithe. 5 years ago my cousin went into debt because of the tithe. Neither of them tithe now. Neither of them attend church now- they were put off. They were cajoled into tithing with emotional hype and second hand testimony.

The key to staying the course I have found is having a relatio with the Lord where you pray and he answers back. If your faith is depending on someone else's experience i.e tithe then you are stirring your tea with a chocolate spoon.

Lismore

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Because I'm sure God needs YOU to prove that His word is right.

Only to those to whom He can't seem to get through.

You quote me directly? Show me a direct quote where I said experiences are more important than God's word.

I never said you stated that directly. Please read my posts for what they say.

You never said tithing was wrong? Huh? Talk about getting deep...

Well, here's a prime example. I quoted you where you said that you are not accountable to anyone, but you didn't quote me saying that tithing, in and of itself is wrong. Very interesting indeed.

And how does a church know what the "primary portion" or the "firstfruits" are? If I give, say $100.

God would show them if they were truly in tune with His Spirit. Of course, they first must have a desire to be obedient to His word, to which most give lip service, to which their actions are not always consistent.

Should I have to tell the church my annual income so that they can calculate my primary portion so that they don't use "one red cent" for something else?

That would be between you and them. I visited an organization that had two boxes in the foyer, one for the primary portion for meeting needs, and another for the secondary giving, which was used for the expenditures of the organization. What was placed into the primary portion box was always much larger than the secondary, but the organization never suffered loss, and actually flourished quite nicely.

Even people from other churches call our church when they need help.

That alone gives testimony to the fact that I am right. Most organizations mishandle what's given to them, especially when they won't help their own people.

We're using more than the primary portion of our giving to help others. As I said before, this argument does not apply to me personally because our church is not misappropriating funds.

That's good to hear.

Oh I see the problem here. You think that your opinion is the same thing as the clear teachings of the Bible. I respectfully disagree.

Well, all you have to do is produce relevant verses and we shall see.

So what is it, BTW? Am I a martyr like you originally said, or am I exhibiting some kind of "psychotic martyr syndrome"?

Naw. I never said you were a martyr. There's a difference between BEING a martyr and acting out the syndrome.

You're more interested in the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil than you are the Tree of Life.

Yeah, yeah. (yawn) One-upmanship is rather boring. How about something of real substance that we all can sink our teeth into. How about some scripture? You know? Those things that are numbered and listed in your Bible?

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I can relate to that. 20 years ago my mother went into debt because of the tithe. 5 years ago my cousin went into debt because of the tithe. Neither of them tithe now. Neither of them attend church now- they were put off. They were cajoled into tithing with emotional hype and second hand testimony.

The key to staying the course I have found is having a relatio with the Lord where you pray and he answers back. If your faith is depending on someone else's experience i.e tithe then you are stirring your tea with a chocolate spoon.

Lismore

Excellent point. Pro-required-tithing defenders seem to go deaf when confronted with testimony of faithful tithers not having their needs met. When the magical formula comes crashing down around their ears, some resort to accusations of there being some "secret sin" in the life of the person who was tithing, and yet still ran into hardship. That's similar to Jesus' disciples asking him if the man who was lame was that way because of the sins of his parents.

BTW

 

[probinson]

I can relate to that. 20 years ago my mother went into debt because of the tithe. 5 years ago my cousin went into debt because of the tithe. Neither of them tithe now. Neither of them attend church now- they were put off. They were cajoled into tithing with emotional hype and second hand testimony.

The key to staying the course I have found is having a relatio with the Lord where you pray and he answers back. If your faith is depending on someone else's experience i.e tithe then you are stirring your tea with a chocolate spoon.

Lismore

I mean no disrespect, but was it because of the tithe that they went into debt, or was it because they were not good stewards with their money?

A few years back, I went into debt because I made some stupid choices with my money. Used credit too much, bought things I didn't really need, etc. I put myself in a place where I could not "afford" to tithe when you looked at my checkbook versus my bills. But I've kept my faith in God and His word and continued to tithe faithfully. God has supplied my needs, because He is my source. Today, I am still paying the price for my financial missteps, but with God's help, I am on track to conquer this debt far quicker than I could if I tried to do it myself.

 

[probinson]

Excellent point. Pro-required-tithing defenders seem to go deaf when confronted with testimony of faithful tithers not having their needs met. When the magical formula comes crashing down around their ears, some resort to accusations of there being some "secret sin" in the life of the person who was tithing, and yet still ran into hardship. That's similar to Jesus' disciples asking him if the man who was lame was that way because of the sins of his parents.

BTW

Tithing is not some "magical formula". I don't know anyone who thinks that. I can't answer why some people don't have their needs met. Maybe (usually) it's because they are really bad stewards with their money. Tithing doesn't absolve us from fiscal responsibility. That's an extreme that most tithers do not support.

 

[Andry]

You're more interested in the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil than you are the Tree of Life.

Allow me to jump in and comment on this part.

If you "tithing" brings life to you, continue. I've previously posted that.

But you seem to not want to accept nor understand, even with the absence of any Scripture, that you are not Biblically tithing. If you were Biblically tithing, when was the last time you took your tithe to where God sent you, and then celebrated with it, ie. eat it? Also, when was the last time you took your tithe to your hometown (even if it's where you live now), and had a feast with it with the marginalized of society? If you were doing those things - even with your monetary tithe - then at least you would be acting according to Scripture, just that you did not have any livestock or grain or produce.

Instead, the actions you are going through are man-made church 'doctrine'. But what's really happening, despite your unwillingness to accept the Biblical definition of the tithe, is that you have been putting the principles of sowing and reaping in motion. So yes, that'll produce what you've sowed - whether giving money to the church, food to the foodbank, volunteer work at the local hospice, etc. etc. And you believe that the 'tithe' you give to church brings life to you. Therefore I can only say amen and praise God for that.

So while I'm not trying to dissuade you from your consistent and generous giving of your income to your church - in your case, 10%+ (the 'offering') - and yes, to me, it is not a matter of who's right and who's wrong - the definitions of the Biblical tithe is very clear and fully articulated to such a degree that there really isn't any room for private interpretation. Ask any rabbi. And then ask if they still tithe today.

 

[Andyman_1970]

If you were Biblically tithing, when was the last time you took your tithe to where God sent you, and then celebrated with it, ie. eat it? Also, when was the last time you took your tithe to your hometown (even if it's where you live now), and had a feast with it with the marginalized of society?]

Or when was the last time you purchased "stong drink" (per Deut 14) with your tithe............I don't hear that from many pulpits..........

Ask any rabbi. And then ask if they still tithe today.[/FONT]

Once again, excellent point Andry, Jews today don't even tithe, and that command was orginally for them specifically.

 

[probinson]

Allow me to jump in and comment on this part.

If you "tithing" brings life to you, continue. I've previously posted that.

But you seem to not want to accept nor understand, even with the absence of any Scripture, that you are not Biblically tithing. If you were Biblically tithing, when was the last time you took your tithe to where God sent you, and then celebrated with it, ie. eat it?

Every Sunday AM and PM, Wednesday PM, and Friday PM I go to where God has called me. We then celebrate together in the place that God has blessed us with. Sometimes we even have dinners, where we eat together.

It's not that there aren't any scriptures. It's that we interpret them and apply them differently. The scriptures people use to say tithing has been done away with are the same scriptures that I believe show us the complete opposite.

But what's really happening, despite your unwillingness to accept the Biblical definition of the tithe, is that you have been putting the principles of sowing and reaping in motion. So yes, that'll produce what you've sowed - whether giving money to the church, food to the foodbank, volunteer work at the local hospice, etc. etc. And you believe that the 'tithe' you give to church brings life to you. Therefore I can only say amen and praise God for that.

Agreed. Sowing and reaping is definitely at work here in my life.

So while I'm not trying to dissuade you from your consistent and generous giving of your income to your church - in your case, 10%+ (the 'offering') - and yes, to me, it is not a matter of who's right and who's wrong - the definitions of the Biblical tithe is very clear and fully articulated to such a degree that there really isn't any room for private interpretation. Ask any rabbi. And then ask if they still tithe today.

I still respectfully disagree with your view on tithing. But it's refreshing to hear posts like this that actually debate issues. I must say that even though you and I or Andyman and I don't see eye to eye, I enjoy debating with you because we debate the issues at hand without throwing around terms like "whacko" and "psychotic". As such, I receive your posts with the love they are offered in.

The point I'm trying to drive home by repeatedly posting about the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life is that too many people are concerned with who's right and who's wrong and not at all concerned with seeking God.

I had a teacher that recently posed this question to us: "What was good about the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?" The answer? Nothing. It was that very knowledge of good and evil that separated man from God. Adam suddenly understood and had knowledge that he was naked and hid himself from God. He became more concerned about his knowledge of nakedness than he did about seeking God, so much so that he ran from God and HID!

All I'm trying to say in this debate to anyone and everyone reading is this: SEEK GOD. That's my bottom line. Don't lean on my understanding or your understanding or anyone else's understanding, but rather seek God for yourself and you will find Him.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Tithing is not some "magical formula". I don't know anyone who thinks that. I can't answer why some people don't have their needs met. Maybe (usually) it's because they are really bad stewards with their money. Tithing doesn't absolve us from fiscal responsibility. That's an extreme that most tithers do not support.

The difference is that you are talking about tithers in general. I'm talking only about those who believe that it's a requirement for all who follow Christ. They leave virtually no room for circumstances. To them, tithing is some magic formula for providing all one's needs. I reject this because God nowhere promised that the result of living in a world filled with sin would suddenly change just because one tithed faithfully.

For example, many like pointing at Malachi. Well, they fail to realize that the promises were of national proportions, not directed at each and every individual. To say that they were of individual scale is to say that tithing causes all suffering (whether financial, physical, mental, or spiritual) and sickness to simply vanish for all those who tithe faithfully. This is nowhere indcated in the text, nor does it mesh with reality.

Just wanted to clarify that.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Allow me to jump in and comment on this part.
...the definitions of the Biblical tithe is very clear and fully articulated to such a degree that there really isn't any room for private interpretation.

Excellent point. It can be said, therefore, that the majority of organized religion has indeed perpetrated private interpretation in order for them to justify absorption of the majority of what's given to them for their own sustenance and expansion, all the while pointing at the Law, which is what Manalchi was addressing. Some even stumble headlong into the fallacy of pointing at Abraham and Jacob, neither of whom were meant to be examples for us today in relation to tithing.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Or when was the last time you purchased "strong drink" (per Deut 14) with your tithe............I don't hear that from many pulpits..........

(I hope you don't mind my inserting the "r" in "strong" for you.) Uh, oh. We can't have strong drink being promoted from the pulpit. Didn't you know? Strong drink is evil, in and of itself. Just ask the Mennonites (except those who pull up behind the liquor store so that others don't see them, and load up by the case load).

Once again, excellent point Andry, Jews today don't even tithe, and that command was orginally for them specifically.

Actually, some still do over in Israel. Of course, they can't do it in accordance with all the Law since the temple no longer exists, but they do bring produce and livestock to certain places and provide for those they consider to be Levites as well as the needy.

BTW

 

[gypsyskyes]

Wait a minute. Don't push my statement beyond the scope of its meaning. Pushing it to an extreme is not a fair assesment of my meaning. I spoke striclt of a characterization that I called "charismatic whaco-ism." One can be charismatic without being a whaco about it. If I walk into a place and see charismatics wallowing around on the floor, barking like dogs, oinking like pige, crowing like chickens, rolling around like they are in a seizure, etc., then I would say that those people have gone into a much darker realm that does not at all reflect the righteousness of Christ Jesus. That kind of activity gives the impression of being possessed by demons more than it does being filled with the Holy Spirit.

BTW

With that I agree!!

I understand your discontent with churches. I knew I had to find one that could help me grow and give me the support I needed to stay on track. My husband and I went to several, of different religions and most, as you say, were more concerned with the building, or tickling ears, or preaching what they were "allowed" to preach instead of what God put on their heart.

I agree with you 100% about reading scripture in prayer. I do an online bible study to make sure I stay in scripture. And I am careful about how man interprets scripture to me.

I believe God teaches us all and all of us need different teachings at different stages in our walk. I just happen to be on the list of those that need to have strong or stronger faith. And what better way than to put me in a position to have to depend on God?

I might add, I've had several circumstances this year where if it wasn't for my faith, I don't think I would have made it, especially emotionally.

Peace and God Bless

 

[gypsyskyes]

I don't think tithing is a magical formula, I think as I said, it teaches faith. And for me, my faith is stronger because of it. It does seem kind of magical, though, come to think of it, when I tithe and can still meet all my financial obligations.

In my opinion, if I was to take all you say to heart, BTW, and didn't know clearly what God wants me to do, then I could very easily sleep later on Sunday,(churches are no good except for the preachers and the building commitees) and have some extra money, (tithing isn't required, the bible says I don't have too).

In your opinion, do you think that would please God? This is just a question to get your point of view, nothing more.

 

[Andry]

In your opinion, do you think that would please God? This is just a question to get your point of view, nothing more.

God is already pleased with you. What makes you think you can please him more?

 

[lismore]

I mean no disrespect, but was it because of the tithe that they went into debt, or was it because they were not good stewards with their money?

A few years back, I went into debt because I made some stupid choices with my money. Used credit too much, bought things I didn't really need, etc. I put myself in a place where I could not "afford" to tithe when you looked at my checkbook versus my bills. But I've kept my faith in God and His word and continued to tithe faithfully. God has supplied my needs, because He is my source. Today, I am still paying the price for my financial missteps, but with God's help, I am on track to conquer this debt far quicker than I could if I tried to do it myself.

No disrespect taken.

In my mothers case she was looking after her brother who was not capable of earning money at that point and was not eligible for benefits. After taking care of all her fincanical outlets she had to go into debt to pay the tithe to a demanding Home Fellowship group. One month she used her tithe money to go on a weekend break for a rest and was terribly rebuked for this . In the end she had to sell possessions to pay the tithe, when she started to sell mine (I was a child at the time) she was advised to call time on religion. She had sold her car, living in rented house while the recipients of the tithe were buying their house. She had to sell all my childhood toys while I was a child in order to pay some of the debts.

In my cousins case, she was paying off her student loan, living and working in a strange country and after paying the tithe could not afford to live without going into debt. Her mother who was wealthy was cajoling her into the tithe for an organisation of HER choice.

Giving should be between a person and the lord- a secret.

Manipulation and cajoling is wrong.

 

[lismore]

God is already pleased with you. What makes you think you can please him more?

Then if you're not giving to please God, who are you giving to please?

 

[Andry]

Then if you're not giving to please God, who are you giving to please?

Because he's been so kind.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

With that I agree!!

I understand your discontent with churches. I knew I had to find one that could help me grow and give me the support I needed to stay on track.

Amen. This is why we all need mutual accountability, which is what Peter insisted upon in 1 Peter 5. I hope you found a group where you can all be an intimate part of each other's lives in Christ Jesus. Mutual accountability is usually lost in larger organizations.

I agree with you 100% about reading scripture in prayer. I do an online bible study to make sure I stay in scripture. And I am careful about how man interprets scripture to me.

That's what I call taking personal responsibility for what one believes. Amen! to that.

I believe God teaches us all and all of us need different teachings at different stages in our walk. I just happen to be on the list of those that need to have strong or stronger faith. And what better way than to put me in a position to have to depend on God?

I don't think any of us should have it any other way. We can teach and correct one another, but it ultimately comes down to the Lord as the final authority.

Blessings

BTW