Tithing - Another View

[New_Wineskin]

Oh, don't be sorry. I prefer the freedom of functioning with my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus than the chains and shakles of religious pew-bondage (or chairs in some cases).

 

[probinson]

Oh, don't be sorry. I prefer the freedom of functioning with my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus than the chains and shakles of religious pew-bondage (or chairs in some cases).

I must be in the minority here. I belong to a wonderful church where God is moving mightily. Most services are not just the pastor teaching, although some are, but most services are a much more interactive experience where all participate. It is anything but bondage. It is quite freeing. We learn from each other, not just the pastor.

I guess what I'm saying is that not all churches are as you describe them.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Oh boy !! 17 pages and climbing .

 

[BeforeThereWas]

This isn't an attack on my character? All I said was satan knows what scriptures say. It doesn't mean a thing to have knowledge of the scriptures. It means NOTHING. It's only through relationship with the Father that those scriptures come to life.

I agree that the Lord brings His word to life. However, you are also very good at playing like you are a martyr here. Allow me to demonstrate:

Gee, that's a cheap shot isn't it? Or at least I thought it was, so it must be.

Well, let's bring things into sharp focus, shall we. You stated, and I quote:

I'm not accountable to you or anyone else.

Now, if you are accountable to NOBODY else (except the Lord of course, as I will give you the benefit of the doubt), then what else is that but a loose cannon. I quoted where Peter clearly stated that we are ALL to be accountable to one another, but YOU are above such scriptural instructions. A spade, by any other name, is still a spade. You also stated:

I owe you nothing.

Again, I quoted scripture that says otherwise. How many times do you have to speak against the scriptures before you realize just how large a pile of foolishness you are wading through? You are up to your neck in foolishness of your own making, and you presist in bringing yourself further down with your own words, and then accuse me of doing what you are doing to yourself. When will you simply give up?

Calling me spiritually immature, saying I demonize people, calling me a lone star loose cannon. Yep. I can see how that's questioning my stated beliefs.

It sure is. It look slike your beliefs are what have driven you to wallow in the pit of pure nonsense. Your "experiences" have driven you to utter that which is antithetical to God's written word. You may be fooling yourself and a few others here, but I doubt you've fooled everyone.

You have implied time and again that experiences are not important.

Only in relation to your "implied" deification of your experiences above the authority of scripture.

I was simply showing that Jesus said they were.

You showed nothing but how well you take verses out of context in order to weave together a tapestry of total confusion. None of us is perfect, but when one sinks so low as to think that his experiences are an authority above the very inspired word of God, then I have no choice to question such beliefs, and the natural outflow of those beliefs, and their origin.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Yes it is.
You cannot eat money

That was the purpose of the Old testament tithe: to eat it.

Deut 12
17 You must not eat in your own towns the tithe of your grain and new wine and oil, or the firstborn of your herds and flocks, or whatever you have vowed to give, or your freewill offerings or special gifts. 18 Instead, you are to eat them in the presence of the LORD your God at the place the LORD your God will choose—you, your sons and daughters, your menservants and maidservants, and the Levites from your towns—and you are to rejoice before the LORD your God in everything you put your hand to

Ah, but his experience (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) has taught him that we are all misinterpreting those verses, and that they therefore don't mean what they say. Experience has addad a whole new unwritten dynamic to the scriptures that none of us can tap into unless we find this formula that probinson has discovered. So, we're all left with having to wander around, not really able to accpet God's word for what it says unless it's clarified by way of some mystical "experience." It appears as though we all lack this special spiritual talisman that gives us a glimpse into some distant revelation that allows us to say that we are not accountable to one another, even though God's word says that we are.

Whew! This only gets worse the deeper we get into it. We just might need another experiential guru for a second opinion.

Anyone fallen asleep yet, and therefore qualified to fill the slot?

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

The Scriptures are clear that one is not to interpret the Text privately – I have posted the dangers associated with such practices.

Yes, indeed. It ocurred to me that experiential theology opens up the door wide open to private interpretation that nobody else has any way of verifying. I realize you enjoyed the sharing of experience, but after we got deeper into the maze created by this thinking, the more disturbing it became. When I see someone say that they are not accountable to anyone else, which is contrary to clear, historic teaching within scripture, I was left with nothing but to call this out onto the carpet.

Glad to see ya, Andy.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

You simply demand that I live and act according to your revelation and convictions.

Did I say that? Hmm. I can't seem to find such a statement in what I wrote.

I do not agree with your misinterpretation or misapplication of the passages that you quote and simply because you do, doesn't require me to roll over and collapse in fear.

Indeed? Well, all you had to do was offer a counter to what I said if you have reason to doubt the application of what I quoted.

Secondly, I see that there is little sense to try to persuade you of your error.

With what? All you've done is state that you diagree with me. Does that prove something?

Thirdly, I serve Jesus and don't care what you think of me or my logic.

Which Jesus? The One described in the pages of the Bible struck Uzzah dead for his disobedience, justified for benevolent reasons, and yet still wrong. If this is wrong, then what do you have that can counter what I've said that is verifiable from within scripture?

I don't trust the purity of your motives although they may be perfectly pure.

Better watch out. I just might start playing the martyr syndrome and whine about how persecuted I am.

BTW

 

[godson777]

I do not believe that Christians are required by law to give at least 10% of their income to church. I do however believe that Christians should support their church and pastors with consistent, generous, sacrificial giving that should in most cases exceed 10%. I could go on for hours giving scriptures of why I believe this, but I have done that extensively in the "Tithing" thread in the Word of Faith forum, so I will not do it here.

 

[lismore]

I surely do. All of the scriptures posted prior to this point in this thread and on every other tithing thread here on CF. I'm sure you've read them all too.

I won't post a specific scripture, because someone will tear it apart and say I'm being subjective and taking it out of context. So as this affects no one but me, my family, my church and God, I will keep it to myself.

Matthew 7:6
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

This scripture is not directed at you, lismore. .

Prorobinson

Please look at it from my perspective. The scripture is the only common ground we have- I cant live my life according to someone elses experience with God. Im not wanting to take you apart Im wanting to know if tithing cash to a vicar is a command from Jesus for today. If it is then I'd be obliged to do it.

 

[lismore]

I do not believe that Christians are required by law to give at least 10% of their income to church. I do however believe that Christians should support their church and pastors with consistent, generous, sacrificial giving that should in most cases exceed 10%. I could go on for hours giving scriptures of why I believe this, but I have done that extensively in the "Tithing" thread in the Word of Faith forum, so I will not do it here.

sacrificial is when it costs you. 10% is a sacrifice? Even the Moosie gives 20%.

 

[godson777]

sacrificial is when it costs you. 10% is a sacrifice? Even the Moosie gives 20%.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying. Are you for or against what I am suggesting?

I don't have a problem with people who choose to give 10% because its the generous amount that they have decided upon, but when people make it a law and give 10% out of obligation to that law, that is when i see a problem.

 

[lismore]

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying. Are you for or against what I am suggesting?

I don't have a problem with people who choose to give 10% because its the generous amount that they have decided upon, but when people make it a law and give 10% out of obligation to that law, that is when i see a problem.

Hi there

I was agreeing with you and I agree with you again.

The widow giving her all was sacrifice. Me giving 10% of my abundance would not be sacrificial. Going to church once every week would not be sacrifice- praying every day for 5 hours to see the Kingdom come would.

Even a member of the muslim religion gives 20% of their cash to their god and does not see it as a sacrifice.

 

[gypsyskyes]

This thread reminds me of when Jesus was going to heal the blind man on the sabbath and the pharisees were upset because He wasn't abiding by the law to the letter.

I do want to say BTW, my church doesn't tickle the ears, doesn't spend it's income on salaries and buildings, does go out into the community, prisons, hospitals etc, and look for needs that we can fulfill.

I had the same impression of churches you do, but I continued to search for one because I realized the importance of attending a church where I can learn, and have my faith made stronger.

I met a wiccan once, that knew scripture better than I did. It was amazing how everything anyone said about Christianity he could use scripture to prove them wrong. He truly was very knowledgeable in christian history and scripture, he could argue scripture all day long with pastors and layman, but he sure didn't do much for christian encouragement, as a matterof fact, he had several people begin asking him about the teachings of Tao (I think that's the right name).

 

[gypsyskyes]

BTW...so you think charismatics are whackos? Hmmmmm.........maybe you need to explain your "religious beliefs" so we could all be enlightened to what you consider acceptable and righteous.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Hi there

I was agreeing with you and I agree with you again.

The widow giving her all was sacrifice. Me giving 10% of my abundance would not be sacrificial. Going to church once every week would not be sacrifice- praying every day for 5 hours to see the Kingdom come would.

Even a member of the muslim religion gives 20% of their cash to their god and does not see it as a sacrifice.

You know, I've heard many talk about the need for giving sacraficially, but the Law never laid such a requirement upon the Israelites. Wage-earners were not required to tithe, although I'm sure they gave into the temple treasury, paid their temple "tax", etc., but the idea that the poor must give sacraficially to organized religion, TV ministers wearing huge diamond rings, coreographed healings, etc., somehow I just don't see that anywhere in scripture. Paul never put that kind of pressure on the early Church believers. Many were giving sacraficially, such as those in Ephesus. Those people were dirt poor, but they still had food for survival, and shelter. I studied some of the history of that era, and was amazed at how the majority within the Roman provice cities were poor slaves.

Anyway, there are principles within scripture that are sometimes caused to suffer at the hands of unscriptural principles, or at the hands of each other. One fella some years ago bragged to me about one of his elders whose family was living without electricity and gas to their house because he was a "faithful tither." Well, this "principle" he set for himself was casusing other principles in scripture to suffer at the hands of this one, namely 1 Tim. 5:8.

As for the muslims, well, they can't give to a god that doesn't exist.

HK

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I do not believe that Christians are required by law to give at least 10% of their income to church. I do however believe that Christians should support their church and pastors with consistent, generous, sacrificial giving that should in most cases exceed 10%. I could go on for hours giving scriptures of why I believe this, but I have done that extensively in the "Tithing" thread in the Word of Faith forum, so I will not do it here.

I think I saw some of that. All those verses strung together in order to comprise that theological tapestry is similar to what I have seen the mormons do in relation to defending the idea of our eventually rising to the level of being gods, and of many other strange doctrines that are not at all supported by the context or the language. All those verses, in the way they were applied, stand in opposition to other keys within scripture that show supporting organized religion with the primary portion of one's giving to be antithetical to what God established for priorities in our giving.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

This thread reminds me of when Jesus was going to heal the blind man on the sabbath and the pharisees were upset because He wasn't abiding by the law to the letter.

Well, I disagree. The nation-wide survey (some years ago) I saw that was performed by (I think) Chrsitianity Today of 10,000 institutions out of the 600,000 that exist across this country, was quite extensive, and it showed that the vast majority of organizations utilize most of their people's primary giving for their real estate and buildings rather than meeting the needs of the poor. This clearly is antithetical NOT ONLY to the PRINCIPLES set forth by the Law of God (not the letter), but also to the examples within the NT.

If your organization is doing otherwise, then I celebrate that with you. That's great. It's just too bad that most absorb varying portions of what's given for their own sustenance and growth rather than the meeting of needs.

I do want to say BTW, my church doesn't tickle the ears, doesn't spend it's income on salaries and buildings, does go out into the community, prisons, hospitals etc, and look for needs that we can fulfill.

Fantastic. Glad to hear it. That's a blast of refreshing air compared to the usual fare of disobedience that most institutions perpetrate.

I had the same impression of churches you do, but I continued to search for one because I realized the importance of attending a church where I can learn, and have my faith made stronger.

Sounds great.

I met a wiccan once, that knew scripture better than I did. It was amazing how everything anyone said about Christianity he could use scripture to prove them wrong.

Ahh, but the differenece is in context, language, and application. Those kinds of people are easy to bring to silence when faced with their inconsistent applications.

He truly was very knowledgeable in christian history and scripture, he could argue scripture all day long with pastors and layman, but he sure didn't do much for christian encouragement, as a matterof fact, he had several people begin asking him about the teachings of Tao (I think that's the right name).

This is a good example of just how tragic it is that so many professing believers simply refuse to read the scriptures, bathed in prayer, in order to defend their faith in the face of those who know how to twist what is written.

One thing I will say is a word of caution, in that some may come along with a challenge to your sensibilities that is genuine, and writing them off as being legalistic or pagan charlatans simply because you don't like what they are sharing. That doesn't place you in a good light in relation to their message if that message can be shown to be true.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

BTW...so you think charismatics are whackos? Hmmmmm.........maybe you need to explain your "religious beliefs" so we could all be enlightened to what you consider acceptable and righteous.

Wait a minute. Don't push my statement beyond the scope of its meaning. Pushing it to an extreme is not a fair assesment of my meaning. I spoke striclt of a characterization that I called "charismatic whaco-ism." One can be charismatic without being a whaco about it. If I walk into a place and see charismatics wallowing around on the floor, barking like dogs, oinking like pige, crowing like chickens, rolling around like they are in a seizure, etc., then I would say that those people have gone into a much darker realm that does not at all reflect the righteousness of Christ Jesus. That kind of activity gives the impression of being possessed by demons more than it does being filled with the Holy Spirit.

BTW

 

[probinson]

Ah, but his experience (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) has taught him that we are all misinterpreting those verses, and that they therefore don't mean what they say. Experience has addad a whole new unwritten dynamic to the scriptures that none of us can tap into unless we find this formula that probinson has discovered. So, we're all left with having to wander around, not really able to accpet God's word for what it says unless it's clarified by way of some mystical "experience." It appears as though we all lack this special spiritual talisman that gives us a glimpse into some distant revelation that allows us to say that we are not accountable to one another, even though God's word says that we are.

Whew! This only gets worse the deeper we get into it. We just might need another experiential guru for a second opinion.

Anyone fallen asleep yet, and therefore qualified to fill the slot?

BTW

Actually, my experience with you the last few days has taught me that the only thing you're interested in is proving that you are right. You are not interested in a relationship with the Father. You are simply interested in you're point of view of what you think the scriptures say. You can't even fathom that maybe you in your own understanding could be wrong. You're more interested in the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil than you are the Tree of Life.

You are an either incredibly ignorant, or willingly deceitful. I haven't figured out which. You like to twist what I post to make it sound much worse, in many cases putting words into my mouth that I've never said. A martyr? A martyr is one who suffers for the sake of principle. You think because you post a bunch of drivel and slander me that I'm suffering? Yeah. I worry about it all the time. On the contrary my friend. Jesus told me to rejoice when people persecute me and speak all kinds of evil against me because of him. I'm throwing a party over here!

I never said experiences are above the word of God. That is a blatant LIE. I said experiences are important. JESUS said experiences were important. Why do you need to slander me and accuse me of things I never said? I would like you to show me where I said that.

Other people have debated the issues with me. You like to assasinate my character. That tells me all I need to know about you.

 

[probinson]

Prorobinson

Please look at it from my perspective. The scripture is the only common ground we have- I cant live my life according to someone elses experience with God.

Nor am I asking you or anyone else to do that.

Scripture is not the only common ground we have. We should also all have a relationship with the Father. The Father won't tell you one thing and me another. I'm not saying anyone should base their lives on my experiences. I'm saying you should have a realtionship and experience with the Father yourself. IOW, don't take my word for it. Live it for yourself.