Tithing - Another View

[BeforeThereWas]

And I say can the same thing you said to me: This explains almost all of what you've written. Apparently you believe it is impossible to converse with God with certainty, or have a real relationship with the Father.

Not at all. You got me all wrong. I'm a firm believer in the Father speaking to His people. I also know that He would never instruct anyone to do that which is contrary to His written word.

My feelings and God speaking to me are 2 completely and entirely different things that are not even closely related to each other.

That's good to hear.

I can talk to God just like I talk with my wife. My relationship with the Father is that real. It has nothing to do with my "perception" or my "thinking" or my "feelings". It is a real relationship.

What I had been asking is how you know with certainty that it's God when you receive what you THINK is His speaking for you to do that which is contrary to examples and commands within scripture?

And who said that tithting would mean that you wouldn't face battles in your life? I didn't say that. Again, you're putting words into my mouth.

I believe I stated that more as a matter-of-fact rather than it being an accusation.

Yep. I believe everyone of us should tithe. You don't. What's your point? I'm entitled to my beliefs, you're entitled to yours.

The point is that we can't both be right. Either there is a biblical, NT requirement for us to tithe, or there is not. If you're going to stand upon the OT Law as your defense of required tithing within the Church today, then there has to be something from scripture upon which you rely for such an authoritative belief. Malachi was talking to a people who were under the requirements of ALL the Law. We are not under those requirements. The tithe was tied directly to the temple and the Levites, both of which have lost their earthly importance since WE are now the temple of the Holy Spirit, and WE are now priests unto the Most High.

What makes no sense is your insistence to make me change what I believe.

What makes even less sense is that you think this is about you. This has been about your statements, such as the alleged requirement for the Church to tithe. I can't find where you defended this from scripture, except in Malachi, which has an absolute context that no mere man is authorized to transplant at will.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm posting my beliefs and my experiences. I'm posting to tell people to seek God. Not probinson or BeforeThereWas. The fact that you keep pointing to your own knowledge and understanding and not to God is "deafening" to me.

Then why not point at scripture where you get your ideas. If they are from God, then there will be some parellel in there somewhere rather than our having to just take your word for it. Your experiences are relative, whether they line up with scripture or not. You made this quite clear from the start.

What is absolutely astounding to me is, that you, who I do not know at all, are trying to tell me that I should forgo all that God has done for me in the past 20 years, change my beliefs and trust YOU and not God. Well my friend, I can not and will not do that.

Well, I never said you had to believe anything. I was simply trying to get to the bottom of where you get all this stuff you said we should all be doing, all without any scriptural backing, except to make a few references to Malachi and your relative experiences. That's no basis upon which to rely for any authoritative advancement of a teaching. If you want people to take you seriously, then rely on scripture, and stand upon what it actually says within its given context, not your experiences, which are mostly meaningless to those of us who have no way of relating directly. You say tithing is still required, well, what gives you the authority to state this in relation to all the rest of us? That's not telling you anything about what you should believe, it's a question to try and get you to legitimately defend your belief in what all the rest of us should be doing. See the difference?

BTW

 

[probinson]

Well, as much as I've "enjoyed" this discourse, I must bow out once again. There really is nothing further to say. Anyone that's read this far has seen quite clearly where we stand and why we believe what we do. No sense in beating a dead horse. Let the record show that I believe everyone should tithe. BTW, does not believe this is a requirement any longer. Let me steal a tagline from Fox News:

We report, you decide. Or IOW, seek God for yourself.

Your experiences are relative, whether they line up with scripture or not. You made this quite clear from the start.

Firstly, just because my experiences don't line up with YOUR knowledge of the scripture or church orthodoxy or man's opinions does not mean that they don't line up with scripture.

Second, I'm not the one who said experiences are relative. I believe that was Jesus, when he said:

Matthew 7:20
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Luke 6:43
"No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.

 

[gypsyskyes]

Really? So, if you walk up to your "pastor" and tell him that the Lord laid a message upon your heart to speak from the podium, that he would relinquish it over to you for the Sunday morning "service"?

BTW

Yes!! He has done that.

Sorry you can't find a church that you feel comfortable with attending and supporting. Of course, churches aren't supposed to be there to tickle your ears, so sometimes it;s not the most comfortable place to be. It would by far be easier to gather with friends of like thinking that require nothing in return and say nothing contrary to your own thinking and behavior.

Hmmm...when Gideon spoke with God, I wonder if anyone questioned whether that was permissible or believable. When Jesus visited the disciples after his death, I wonder how many ran to the OT to see if that was scriptural that He would appear to THEM.

If God doesn't speak to you, you need to get a closer relationship with Him. I see a lot of argumentative posts here. Almost a determination to prove someone wrong. Someone that claims to have a relationship with God.

But that is what the scholars of Jesus's time did to Him too, isn't it?

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Let the record show that I believe everyone should tithe. BTW, does not believe this is a requirement any longer. Let me steal a tagline from Fox News:

We report, you decide. Or IOW, seek God for yourself.

The problem is that you have presented nothing from scripture that supports your belief that we all should be tithing, except a slight reference to the letter of the Law. That is the central rub of this whole thing.

Firstly, just because my experiences don't line up with YOUR knowledge of the scripture or church orthodoxy or man's opinions does not mean that they don't line up with scripture.

Then why not quote and expound upon those quotes that you think support your position? That appears to have been too much to ask, because you have failed to do even that when asked numerous times.

Second, I'm not the one who said experiences are relative. I believe that was Jesus, when he said:

Matthew 7:20
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Luke 6:43
"No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.

Well, you appear to be well seasoned at using scripture as a pop gun to take cheap shots at others. This certainly doesn't exemplify spiritual maturity. I fully understand your wanting to bow out. I would too if I had perpetrated this shameful display of immaturity.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Sorry you can't find a church that you feel comfortable with attending and supporting.

Oh, don't be sorry. I prefer the freedom of functioning with my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus than the chains and shakles of religious pew-bondage (or chairs in some cases). Many are mistaken in thier understanding of the purpose for the gathering of believers, which is most unfortunate.

Of course, churches aren't supposed to be there to tickle your ears, so sometimes it;s not the most comfortable place to be.

Isn't that what they do as a matter of course? Why else would all those people desire to sit there being a passive audience, doing only that which is expected on cue?

It would by far be easier to gather with friends of like thinking that require nothing in return and say nothing contrary to your own thinking and behavior.

You really must attend a TRUE home fellowship. A genuine gourp that seeks the experience of Christ Jesus is anything but an exercise in everyone being of like mind in all things.

Hmmm...when Gideon spoke with God, I wonder if anyone questioned whether that was permissible or believable.

Apples to oranges.

When Jesus visited the disciples after his death, I wonder how many ran to the OT to see if that was scriptural that He would appear to THEM.

Well, at least you have a sense of humor.

If God doesn't speak to you, you need to get a closer relationship with Him. I see a lot of argumentative posts here. Almost a determination to prove someone wrong. Someone that claims to have a relationship with God.

I also have seen that emotional hype is seen by some as evidence for truth.

But that is what the scholars of Jesus's time did to Him too, isn't it?

Charles Stanley had much to say about the spirit of anti-intellectualism. You might want to go to his site and read what he had to say about that.

BTW

 

[probinson]

The problem is that you have presented nothing from scripture that supports your belief that we all should be tithing, except a slight reference to the letter of the Law. That is the central rub of this whole thing.

Let's consider something, shall we. Satan knows what the scriptures say. He used them to try to trip up Jesus. Simply knowing what scriptures say is proof of absoulutely nothing. It does not mean that you have a revelation of them or that they are real in your life.

Then why not quote and expound upon those quotes that you think support your position? That appears to have been too much to ask, because you have failed to do even that when asked numerous times.

Because I'm not your God and I'm no one else's God. I'm not accountable to you or anyone else. I owe you nothing. I've told you time and again to go to God, with an open heart and willingness to listen. The point that should be abundantly clear by now is that I point people to God, you point people to your wisdom.

Well, you appear to be well seasoned at using scripture as a pop gun to take cheap shots at others. This certainly doesn't exemplify spiritual maturity. I fully understand your wanting to bow out. I would too if I had perpetrated this shameful display of immaturity.

Why must you continually make attacks on my character? Does tearing me down make your point look better?

I quoted Jesus. Jesus. Let me say it again: Jesus said you will know them by their fruit. I didn't say that. Jesus did. Take it up with Jesus if you don't like it. Don't try to tell me that I'm taking a cheap shot at you.

I see when you use scripture, it's spiritual, and when I use scripture, I'm taking cheap shots. How can I debate with that? That's why I will no longer discuss tithing.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Let's consider something, shall we. Satan knows what the scriptures say. He used them to try to trip up Jesus. Simply knowing what scriptures say is proof of absoulutely nothing. It does not mean that you have a revelation of them or that they are real in your life.

Is demonization of others the only weapon you have at your disposal in your arsenal? This smacks of charismatic whacko-ism. It belittles the very scriptures Jesus and His disciples referenced often. You obviously reject anything another has to say from scripture when it goes against the grain of your emotional, experientialistic style of interpretation. Context and wording within scripture appear to be quite meaningless to you. Why is that?

Because I'm not your God and I'm no one else's God.

I never said you were.

I'm not accountable to you or anyone else. I owe you nothing.

Indeed?

1 Pet 5:5 "Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble." (KJV)

Rom 13:8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law." (KJV)

So much for scripture, huh, and what it actually says? Lone star, loose cannons are all over the place out in the world.

I've told you time and again to go to God, with an open heart and willingness to listen. The point that should be abundantly clear by now is that I point people to God, you point people to your wisdom.

The above quotes are not my wisdom. Those verses stand upon their own merit. A god of one's own making can never save him. I agree that we should approach and listen to the Lord, but I still say that His word is reliable and useful.

Why must you continually make attacks on my character? Does tearing me down make your point look better?

I have questioned your stated beliefs, not your character. Why can't you differentiate between the two?

I quoted Jesus. Jesus. Let me say it again: Jesus said you will know them by their fruit. I didn't say that. Jesus did. Take it up with Jesus if you don't like it. Don't try to tell me that I'm taking a cheap shot at you.

It's your timing and application of that statement that I found to be highly suspect and questionable.

I see when you use scripture, it's spiritual, and when I use scripture, I'm taking cheap shots.

In this instance you were.

How can I debate with that? That's why I will no longer discuss tithing.

Suit yourself.

BTW

 

[Andyman_1970]

The principle, described in Malachi, in the Bible, in the Holy Scriptures, that when I'm obedient to tithe, God opens up the windows of Heaven and pours out blessings that I don't have room enough to receive.

You realize that Malachi was talking about the tithe as defined in the Torah which is grain/produce/animals and never currency. So it appears that this revelation you've been "given" is contrary to God's Word - please explain.

Also, please show in God's Word where tithing is a prinicple that can be loosely interpreted as you do?

You realize that God got very upset with Israel when they did not take His Holy Word seriously??????????

 

[probinson]

Is demonization of others the only weapon you have at your disposal in your arsenal? This smacks of charismatic whacko-ism. It belittles the very scriptures Jesus and His disciples referenced often. You obviously reject anything another has to say from scripture when it goes against the grain of your emotional, experientialistic style of interpretation. Context and wording within scripture appear to be quite meaningless to you. Why is that?

This isn't an attack on my character? All I said was satan knows what scriptures say. It doesn't mean a thing to have knowledge of the scriptures. It means NOTHING. It's only through relationship with the Father that those scriptures come to life.

Indeed?

1 Pet 5:5 "Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble." (KJV)

Rom 13:8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law." (KJV)

So much for scripture, huh, and what it actually says? Lone star, loose cannons are all over the place out in the world.

Gee, that's a cheap shot isn't it? Or at least I thought it was, so it must be.

I have questioned your stated beliefs, not your character. Why can't you differentiate between the two?

Calling me spiritually immature, saying I demonize people, calling me a lone star loose cannon. Yep. I can see how that's questioning my stated beliefs.

It's your timing and application of that statement that I found to be highly suspect and questionable.

You have implied time and again that experiences are not important. I was simply showing that Jesus said they were.

 

[probinson]

You realize that Malachi was talking about the tithe as defined in the Torah which is grain/produce/animals and never currency. So it appears that this revelation you've been "given" is contrary to God's Word - please explain.

Also, please show in God's Word where tithing is a prinicple that can be loosely interpreted as you do?

You realize that God got very upset with Israel when they did not take His Holy Word seriously??????????

Contrary? I looked up contrary in the dictionary just for fun. When it came to "contrary words", it said opposites, or antonyms. Are you telling me that currency is the opposite or antonym of grain, produce or animals?

 

[lismore]

Contrary? I looked up contrary in the dictionary just for fun. When it came to "contrary words", it said opposites, or antonyms. Are you telling me that currency is the opposite or antonym of grain, produce or animals?

Yes it is.

You cannot eat money

That was the purpose of the Old testament tithe: to eat it.

Deut 12
17 You must not eat in your own towns the tithe of your grain and new wine and oil, or the firstborn of your herds and flocks, or whatever you have vowed to give, or your freewill offerings or special gifts. 18 Instead, you are to eat them in the presence of the LORD your God at the place the LORD your God will choose—you, your sons and daughters, your menservants and maidservants, and the Levites from your towns—and you are to rejoice before the LORD your God in everything you put your hand to



nehemiah 8:10 Nehemiah said, "Go and enjoy choice food and sweet drinks, and send some to those who have nothing prepared. This day is sacred to our Lord. Do not grieve, for the joy of the LORD is your strength."


11 The Levites calmed all the people, saying, "Be still, for this is a sacred day. Do not grieve." 12 Then all the people went away to eat and drink, to send portions of food and to celebrate with great joy, because they now understood the words that had been made known to them.


Amos 4:4 "Go to Bethel and sin;
go to Gilgal and sin yet more.
Bring your sacrifices every morning,
your tithes every three years. [b]

 

[probinson]

I must say, for the most part, minus the personal attacks on my character, this has been a very profitable debate for me. The reason I enjoy these types of debates is because they challenge me.

Over the last few days, I've revisited my studies on tithing. I sat down and spent time in the Word with God and went to Him with an open heart. I looked at all the scriptures that have been posted by others here in many different translations. I must say, I saw things I've never seen before. I saw, in a renewed light, the importance of tithing. I saw just how much we can be a blessing and God can bless us if we're obedient to His Word.

Now, I can't explain this, so please don't ask me to. I am not a Bible scholar, nor do I aspire to be one. Thankfully, God accepts me just as I am and can show me His Word. Besides that, it's better to seek God for yourself on any issue than to seek the counsel of mere man.

I just wanted to share how this debate has helped me to grow in my relationship with the Father, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[lismore]

Over the last few days, I've revisited my studies on tithing. I sat down and spent time in the Word with God and went to Him with an open heart. I looked at all the scriptures that have been posted by others here in many different translations. I must say, I saw things I've never seen before. I saw, in a renewed light, the importance of tithing. I saw just how much we can be a blessing and God can bless us if we're obedient to His Word.

.

Do you have a scripture about tithing you could share?

 

[probinson]

Do you have a scripture about tithing you could share?

I surely do. All of the scriptures posted prior to this point in this thread and on every other tithing thread here on CF. I'm sure you've read them all too.

I won't post a specific scripture, because someone will tear it apart and say I'm being subjective and taking it out of context. So as this affects no one but me, my family, my church and God, I will keep it to myself.

Matthew 7:6
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

This scripture is not directed at you, lismore. Quite frankly, I'm tired of people taking my relationship with God and the fruit of it and trampling it saying that it does not matter and then turning and attacking my character. You can see my stance on tithing by reading the earlier posts in this thread. I can only reiterate what I've said: seek God for yourselves.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I surely do. All of the scriptures posted prior to this point in this thread and on every other tithing thread here on CF. I'm sure you've read them all too.

I won't post a specific scripture, because someone will tear it apart and say I'm being subjective and taking it out of context. So as this affects no one but me, my family, my church and God, I will keep it to myself.

The Scriptures are clear that one is not to interpret the Text privately – I have posted the dangers associated with such practices.

Matthew 7:6
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

This scripture is not directed at you, lismore. Quite frankly, I'm tired of people taking my relationship with God and the fruit of it and trampling it saying that it does not matter and then turning and attacking my character.

Pete, I want to go on record and say that I think your experience that you have with giving is awesome, I celebrate that with you. The passage in Matthew has to do with judging others, Pete I do not judge you, you’re my brother in Christ as such I love you, but I do respectfully disagree with you on a few issues. However according to the Scriptures if someone is holding onto a false teaching we are to gently correct them. Now, I should probably ask you to forgive me as I have not been terrible, or perhaps perceived as being gentle, for that I ask your forgiveness.

However with all due respect that does not change the fact that Biblically you, nor has anyone else been able to Biblically substantiate their interpretation of Malachi 3.

 

[Doug45]

Then you turned around and said:



Well, with this kind of logic, we could justify almost anything, right?

Wrong! Read the word of God:

2 Sam. 6:6-7
6 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it.
7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.

See? Uzzah thought the same way you think. He went ahead and disobeyed by trying to justify his disobedience with what he thought was benevolent. After all, the Ark, a national treasure that saved many lives in battle, could have fallen off the cart and end up damaged. Instead, God demonstrated His displeasure with ANY measure of disobedience, no matter WHAT justificationsa man may make up for himself.

So you see, there's no such thing as degrees of disobedience on the basis of contrived justifications. Disobediance is just that, and nothing else. God could certainly have extended mercy to Uzzah for doing what he thought was right, but instead brought about the end of his earthly life.

What kind of testimony is that to say that we can justifiably disobey the Lord? I hope you aren't in a postition to teach others, who have less critical thinking skills at their command, this kind of rubbish.

BTW

You simply demand that I live and act according to your revelation and convictions. Sorry, not going to happen. You have said that I am disobeying the scripture (actually your interpretation of the scripture which may or may not be truth). I do not agree with your misinterpretation or misapplication of the passages that you quote and simply because you do, doesn't require me to roll over and collapse in fear. Secondly, I see that there is little sense to try to persuade you of your error. Thirdly, I serve Jesus and don't care what you think of me or my logic.

I am quite open to receive instruction from the Lord and many other poeple within the Body of Christ, but that relationship is established in trust. Personally, as I discern your spirit, I am not ready to receive from you. I don't trust the purity of your motives although they may be perfectly pure.

I am fairly sure that you serve Jesus. So I will leave the matter with Him.

Blessings,

Doug

 

[probinson]

Pete, I want to go on record and say that I think your experience that you have with giving is awesome, I celebrate that with you. The passage in Matthew has to do with judging others, Pete I do not judge you, you’re my brother in Christ as such I love you, but I do respectfully disagree with you on a few issues. However according to the Scriptures if someone is holding onto a false teaching we are to gently correct them. Now, I should probably ask you to forgive me as I have not been terrible, or perhaps perceived as being gentle, for that I ask your forgiveness.

However with all due respect that does not change the fact that Biblically you, nor has anyone else been able to Biblically substantiate their interpretation of Malachi 3.

Hey Andyman,

It's no problem. I enjoy debating with you. You're one of the few here that can debate the issues without slinging the mud. I too apologize if I've been offensive to you in any way.

We do disagree on this, and that's not likely to change. So what do we do then? We can either keep reiterating what we've already said and beat this horse senseless, or we can agree to disagree. I'm for the latter.

 

[Doug45]

The Scriptures are clear that one is not to interpret the Text privately – I have posted the dangers associated with such practices.

Andyman_1970,

Actually, the thing that is most disturbing is that you would cite this passage in support of your position and others here. The interpretation that you present and chose to try to manipulate others into believing is held by such a relatively few across the Body of Christ. Interestingly, though not exclusively, to quote Amazon.com, people who buy this book often buy the book entitled 'There is no Good Organized Church'. It is surprising that no one has cited this passage to confront your thinking.

The higher way for all of us might be to eat from the 'Tree of Life' rather than from the 'Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil'. The Father commanded us not to eat of the fruit long before tithing was an issue.

Just an observation.

Doug

 

[Andyman_1970]

Andyman_1970,

Actually, the thing that is most disturbing is that you would cite this passage in support of your position and others here.

Actually Doug if you would carefully reread my post, I use it in reference to Pete not sharing his Scriptural foundation on his position.

If you would do some research, among Christian scholars and theologians they are quite unanimous in that tithing is not for today, not to mention the Text clearly has not ordained a “switch” from what God commanded it to be to what it is referred to today. The sad thing is most Christians don’t bother to question the idea when it is preached from the pulpit and don’t bother to actually read what God’s Word says in Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy instead of doing as Paul encourages in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 “test everything hold on to the good”.

The interpretation that you present and chose to try to manipulate others into believing is held by such a relatively few across the Body of Christ.

The idea that the tithe is actually for today and that Malachi actually refers to Christians today is held by a relatively small fringe group of fundamentalist/Charismatic sects.

Interestingly, though not exclusively, to quote Amazon.com, people who buy this book often buy the book entitled 'There is no Good Organized Church'. It is surprising that no one has cited this passage to confront your thinking.

I’ve never bemoaned the organized church, I have however and will continue to hold that the most accurate way to interpret Scripture is to view it in it’s historical, cultural and linguistic context – otherwise man is free to reinvent Jesus anyway they see fit, or make the Bible “approve” such disgusting things like slavery.

The higher way for all of us might be to eat from the 'Tree of Life' rather than from the 'Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil'. The Father commanded us not to eat of the fruit long before tithing was an issue.

I agree.

Just an observation.

And a pretty good one at that.

 

[probinson]

If you would do some research, among Christian scholars and theologians they are quite unanimous in that tithing is not for today, not to mention the Text clearly has not ordained a “switch” from what God commanded it to be to what it is referred to today. The sad thing is most Christians don’t bother to question the idea when it is preached from the pulpit and don’t bother to actually read what God’s Word says in Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy instead of doing as Paul encourages in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 “test everything hold on to the good”.

The idea that the tithe is actually for today and that Malachi actually refers to Christians today is held by a relatively small fringe group of fundamentalist/Charismatic sects.

I would like to point out that the majority is not always right. Just take a look at the children of Israel, who wandered around lost in the wilderness for 40 years on a trip that should have taken 2-3 weeks, because they listened to the majority.

Just another observation.