Tithing - Another View

[BeforeThereWas]

Then apparently you aren't looking hard enough.

It sounds like you assume all churches today are large greedy creatures of industry, popping our good little zombified christians.

I think everyone has a right to participate in these forums, but if misrepresentation of another's posts, and adding to them what was never said, is the only way you have anything at all to say, then it would be better if you didn't say anything at all. The wind blew your own spittle back into your own face.

In accuality there are many, many small churches out there meeting out of homes and school gynasiums earnestly studying the word of God.

Those are exactly what I am a part of. So you see, you're going after someone who's on YOUR side where home fellowships are concerned.

These people understand that the church isn't a building or an organization but a small fragment of the larger Church of everybody who professes Faith in Jesus Chirst.

Then you obviously haven't read through this entire thread, and other similar threads like it, on this very board.

Yes, giving to "organized religion" is giving to God. giving anything in the name of Jesus is giving to God.

I'm glad that the word of God doesn't agree with you. The Law was VERY specific as to WHO the tithe was to be given, and HOW it was to be used. Didn't you read all those references I posted in support of this fact? Obviously not.

It doesn't matter if the recipicant is a greedy blood sucking organism, it's what is in your heart that matters.

This clearly is your own opinion that certainly didn't originate from scripture. The evidence of this is in the fact that you quoted not one reference from the word of God. God expects us to use our intellect and reason that He has given to us.

My question now is what is everybody arguing about? Everybody seems to arguing for the same thing. If somebody rather give a 100% of anything rather then one cent of money, let him.

Well, I can understand this coming from you, considering your stance; in that we don't have to exercise good stewardship, God-given intelligence, discernment, and obedience in our giving.

In all honestly the Church doesn't need to be provided for, even my small church can go without tithe, because God provides for His children. The tithe is for the well being of your heart.

You may notice a trend in this post, people who don't tithe are bitter about titheing, those who do are enthusiastic about it.

That's like saying, "Those who don't jump off buildings are bitter about it, and those who do are enthusiastic about it!" What kind of reasoning is that?

God has increased thier wealth ten fold just as He promised, it's not a wonder they're grateful.

And you have a sure fire acid test for determing that? Come on. Who are you trying to fool?

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I hesitantly re-enter this debate....

Let me say this: Show me all your scripture. Say that tithe was food.

I proved this back in post #32 of this very thread.

Say it's being "legalistic" to "only" give 10% (who said 10% was ALL you could give anyway?).

I don't recall anyone saying that. Can you give us the post number? If not, then why say this at all?

Tithing is about obedience. It is showing reverence to God.

The scriptures disagree with you. Again, see post #32. Scripture says that the REASON for the tithe was that there may be food for the Levites, orphans, widows and strangers in the land.

Can you give us a reference where the Lord said that the purpose of the tithe was for obedience and reverence?

How does giving your tithe to organized religion that almost always abuses it a means of reverencing God?

When we obey, we are blessed. The times when I've tithed even when I "couldn't afford to", God has shown Himself mighty on my behalf. It's saying, God, I trust in You and You alone. As others have said, it's the only place in the Bible where God tells us to test Him. I have. It works.

That's a great sentiment, but what's your acid test?

No one will ever convince me otherwise.

The scriptures call this phenomenon "stiff-necked."

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Funny, your distinction between increase and earnings is good logic and acceptible reasoning on your part, but the same analogy with an opposite perspective isn't worth your consideration.

That is simply an unteachable and isolated spirit.

Why? Simply because I disagreed with you? Disagreement with you makes you an authority to judge the spirit of another? Guess what. That's called ad hominem. If you can defend your position more reasonably, logically and scriptuirally, then by all means, I'm listening. However, judging my spirit on the basis of your flawed reasoning and logical fallacies hardly give you license to judge me or anyone else.

You keep saying that your perspective is founded in the word and therefore undisputable and correct but not all people here agree with your perspectives or interpretation of the scripture are in fact legitimate. This attitude would suggest that your perspective of the truth is = to the truth. I would suggest that this is arrogance.

Suggest away, but when you offer nothing with coherent continuity, then I have nothing else to go on but the fact that what I have said has withstood the flatulent winds of nonsense.

You might consider answering Andrew's post #71 in light of your convictions.

Already did.

My perception is that you can't handle working for $ and giving the 'control' of how they are used up to anyonelse.

Only fools cast their resources out the window without regard for how they are used, especially the primary portion of one's giving. Look, Jesus specifically instructed the rich young ruler to sell what he had, and to give it to the poor, NOT to the temple treasury, NOT to the Levites, NOT to the priests, NOT to Caesar, but to the poor. My confidence is in what the Lord says, not in myself, anything, or anyone else, contrary to your attempt at usurping the throne of Christ Jesus.

Have a nice day.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Convenient observation.


Doug

You harangue about my lack of accepting what you say, and yet this pretty well sums up the extent of your rebuttals. How could anyone with half their brain tied behind their back accept this as being at all of any use as an appologetic? Please enlighten me.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

The problem is that people are handing over the primary portion of their giving to organized religion, which abuses that giving.

Not your responsibility. They answer for their own sin.

Not my responsibility? Whatever happened to mutual accountability within the body of Christ?

1 Pet 5:5 "Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble."

DEMONSTRATE that I am wrong, and then we can proceed.

Besides, I am a part of the Church, and when I see going on what is clearly antithetical to the examples and commands of scripture, then turning my back on it will only serve to solidify my being a partaker of the guilt.

Ezek 3:20 "Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

Perhaps you don't take scripture seriously enough, but I happen to consider that God means exactly what He says, that He's LIVING serious (as opposed to DEAD serious).

BTW

 

[Andry]

Again you are not reading my whole post. I said it several times. Tithe doesn't just refer to money, it can refer to many things.

The Biblical tithe was never money. Show one Scripture where it was money.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I never thought I'd see a thread on CF invoke Godwin's Law. And in comparison to tithing and blessings?

Nazis and tithing?! Come on bro!

Settle down Pete.

First once again context is lost on you, and with my own post no less. Please re-read it. I was in no way comparning tithing to Nazi's. My whole point if you'll re-read the post was why I take interpreting God's Word in it's context so seriously and why I consider misinterpreting God's Word and lifting it out of it's context so very dangerous because of what history (there's that word again) has taught us man and fallible understanding will try to overide the orginal authors intent.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Context my friend context, the Scripture also implies it’s permissible to own slaves. I guess I just can’t run all “fast and loose” with interpreting the Scriptures.

Please help me to understand why you feel that probinson's statement about plucking your eye out if it causes you to sin has any connection to slavery? I looked at the context in the Sermon on the Mount quickly and don't see any mention either justifying or speaking against slavery.

Ok, first remember Jesus and Paul are Jewish rabbi’s, and as such many times they us symbols, images, metaphor and pictures to describe thing or to make a point. Jesus in His discourse on the mount is essentially laying out His interpretation of Torah, this was known as a rabbi’s yoke (sound familiar?) – their set of interpretation. This is where context comes in, by understanding the culture and history of the 1st century it sheds light on the meanings of what the authors of the Scripture were saying.

Jesus in the plucking out the eye statement is making a point about the seriousness of sin. Remember in that same passage He tells those who thought that just because they did not physically murder someone it was ok to hate that person – Jesus indicates they are wrong in their understanding (that even hate equals murder). So understanding how rabbi’s taught and taking the “plucking out of the eye” verse in context with it’s surrounding passages it’s not hard to see Jesus was not commanding such an action He was making a point with a vivid word picture.

Just to clarify please note I said the Scriptures imply it’s permissible to own slaves, I did not imply Jesus says that on the discourse on the mount. Paul however several times, and even in the Old Testament indicate that slave ownership is acceptable.

I am left to believe your casual flipping off the question with the 'context' excuse in response to one passage and a demand for absolute compliance to the letter in another instance is hypocritical. I wouldn't want to be left with that thought so please help me find the verse that connects Jesus statement in the Sermon to slavery and therefore creates a problem in context for you.

I have never demanded absolute compliance with the Scriptures (God however………), there is no “context” excuse with the eye plucking (see my above comments), however the tithe commands in the Torah are different – they are direct commands from God, not God using vivid language to make a point as in Jesus’ case.

To clarify I didn’t connect the discourse on the mount with slavery, I was merely pointing out the folly of Pete’s comment which was:

(my quote)Biblically it is – how do we know what we are suppose to do, how are we suppose know about God and such if we don’t use the Holy Scriptures as our baseline? How can one say a tithe is XYZ when the Bible specifically says otherwise. If in fact the Holy Scriptures “approve” of currency to be given, to someone other than the Levites, for the use of something other than taking care of the Levites/poor/fatherless/widow/alien I would like to know, please feel free to share that with us.

(Pete's response) The Holy Scriptures also say that if your eye causes you to sin, you should pluck it out. Has your eye caused you to sin? Did you pluck it out?

So you can see that Pete here is implying that one can know if they are “on the right track” in living out their life for God apart from the Scriptures – he retorted with the plucking statement, a dig at my adherence to the Scriptures, my slavery comment was to only further the ridiculousness of using the Scripture out of context.

What disturbs me the most about this is that there seems to be this absence or belittlement of using God’s Word as a guide for our lives, not to mention the utter lack of it’s use contextually. I have a hard time understanding people who claim to be disciples of Jesus and yet seemingly ignore something that was at the center of the life and the foundation of the minsitry of the one they claim to follow……..it’s very disturbing to me, and IMO very dangerous.

So once again I’ll post this question that I post many many times on all the tithe threads I post on:

If in fact the Holy Scriptures “approve” of currency to be given, to someone other than the Levites, for the use of something other than taking care of the Levites/poor/fatherless/widow/alien I would like to know, please feel free to share that with us.

I’ll be waiting for an answer on this one…………………………

 

[probinson]

Settle down Pete.

First once again context is lost on you, and with my own post no less. Please re-read it. I was in no way comparning tithing to Nazi's. My whole point if you'll re-read the post was why I take interpreting God's Word in it's context so seriously and why I consider misinterpreting God's Word and lifting it out of it's context so very dangerous because of what history (there's that word again) has taught us man and fallible understanding will try to overide the orginal authors intent.

You may not have been comparing tithing to nazis, but you were certainly trying to say that my revelation of tithing is comparable to Hitler and the nazis misinterpretation of scripture. Referencing nazis and Hitler in any discussion, particularly one about tithing, is just absurd. Are you really concerned that I'm going to start a nazi regime? No? Then why bring it up?

Please hear me clearly: I tithe because of the revelation I have from God regarding tithing. I don't hurt you or anyone else at all by doing so. God blesses me and my family because of it. My wife and I are in agreement about this. If you don't want to tithe, or if you want to get hung up on, this is not tithing, it's giving, go on with your bad self! I won't try to stop you or convince you to do anything different. What's the problem??

 

[probinson]

No one will ever convince me otherwise.

The scriptures call this phenomenon "stiff-necked."
BTW

You might want to take another look. The scriptures call this "phenomenon" building your house on a rock, not tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

Everyone is ignoring my experience. Does that count for nothing? Is it simply coincidence that I can look back and every time I stopped tithing for any reason over the last 20 years, I almost immediately had a financial hardship, and every time I repented and started tithing again, my financial hardships have disappeared?

Scripture and "context" can not be your God. God must be your God.

 

[gypsyskyes]

If you think that giving to organized religion is synonymous with giving to God, then I would have to ask where you get that from scripture. I can't find anything that even closely resembles what today are called "churches".

Well, when I read scripture, I don't nitpickm it apart, I pray for God to speak to me, to lead me. With that in mind, God has taught me faith through tithing.

My church is non denominational and spends a great portion of what is taken in on the needy, families going through hardships. We put people up in motels (a nice one I might add), if they lack a roof over their head, or can't go home, we provide and deliver food to those in need of such. Our roof leaks on occasion and we hold church in a strip mall.

 

[gypsyskyes]

Pete....I'm glad to see someone else with a testimony on tithing. Even though it's not a very popular one.

I seriously considered not tithing one month because of unexpected medical bills and a friend of mine asked me if I was going to let the devil steal my testimony. I tithed, everything worked out fine.

Keep the faith

 

[stelow]

Grace principles of giving, motivated by the love for God, out-give legalistic forced principles of giving such as tithing.

Christ is the high priest of the church, which means every believer. Now every believer is personally a priest -- not giving tithes to other priests, but, as priests themselves, offering sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving.

Christ is the head and the priesthood of believers is his body, this means his "power" flows into us and becomes our power.

Therefore, the church does not need to use the weak Mosaic Law-power of tithing to further its goals; it has the eternal "indestructible" life-power of grace and faith from Jesus Christ!

[Hebrews 7:17 – 19] 17For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

God bless. Bro stelow

 

[BeforeThereWas]

You might want to take another look. The scriptures call this "phenomenon" building your house on a rock, not tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

That is certainly admirable, and scriptural within its proper framework.

Everyone is ignoring my experience. Does that count for nothing?

Sure it counts, but basing your entire construct of what you consider to be theological truth, even in the face of biblical teachings that contradict those "experiences," should be seen as highly questionable.

Which is the higher authority to you, your experience, or the word of God in what it actually says?

Can you show me where the tithe was used for ANYTING but the meeting of needs?

That's all I ask right now. Please show me how your handing over the primary portion of your giving to be abused by organized religion is at all spiritual when such is antithetical to biblical teachings, examples and commands.

Is it simply coincidence that I can look back and every time I stopped tithing for any reason over the last 20 years, I almost immediately had a financial hardship, and every time I repented and started tithing again, my financial hardships have disappeared?

Coincidence? Who knows. You are still employed, along with 149 other people. Well, how many of that 149 don't tithe, and yet they too are still there? How many people are above you who have been promoted, and do not tithe? If experience were an authoritative source of our beliefs, then we may as well join hands with the Krishna crowd, because they create their own reality and experiences on a daily basis as their sole source of reality.

The Lord causes it to rain upon the fields of the righteous and the unrighteous alike, blessing both. What we are supposed to occupy our lives with is obeidnce, as is stated in John 14:15, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Scripture and "context" can not be your God. God must be your God.

And where have you shoved your "experience" in relation to the word of God?

Is it above, or below God's word?

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I stated:

If you think that giving to organized religion is synonymous with giving to God, then I would have to ask where you get that from scripture. I can't find anything that even closely resembles what today are called "churches".

Then you said:

Well, when I read scripture, I don't nitpickm it apart, I pray for God to speak to me, to lead me. With that in mind, God has taught me faith through tithing.

Paul had this to say in 1Thes. 5:21, "Prove all things...." As you can see, he said that we are to prove ALL things, not just most, and not just some, but ALL things. Nitpick? You bet. I want to make sure there is no leaven in the loaf, otherwise the whole loaf ends up leavened. (1 Cor. 5:6)

My church is non denominational and spends a great portion of what is taken in on the needy, families going through hardships. We put people up in motels (a nice one I might add), if they lack a roof over their head, or can't go home, we provide and deliver food to those in need of such. Our roof leaks on occasion and we hold church in a strip mall.

I see. So, of the monetary support handed over to your organization, its own expenditures are secondary to the meeting of needs?

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

My church is non denominational and spends a great portion of what is taken in on the needy, families going through hardships.

Let me ask you: Do you not trust yourself to meet needs directly?

Why use organized religion to do what we all should be doing ourselves?

Why support something that does what we should all be doing on our own without any expenditure of our resources for things that will perish with this earth?

That which was laid at the apostle's feet was distributed to the needy, with not one red cent poured into real estate and buildings. Doesn't that strike you as being odd in relation to what we see going on around us today?

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Grace principles of giving, motivated by the love for God, out-give legalistic forced principles of giving such as tithing.

Christ is the high priest of the church, which means every believer. Now every believer is personally a priest -- not giving tithes to other priests, but, as priests themselves, offering sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving.

Christ is the head and the priesthood of believers is his body, this means his "power" flows into us and becomes our power.

Therefore, the church does not need to use the weak Mosaic Law-power of tithing to further its goals; it has the eternal "indestructible" life-power of grace and faith from Jesus Christ!

[Hebrews 7:17 – 19] 17For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

God bless. Bro stelow

Well said.

BTW

 

[gypsyskyes]

Paul had this to say in 1Thes. 5:21, "Prove all things...." As you can see, he said that we are to prove ALL things, not just most, and not just some, but ALL things. Nitpick? You bet. I want to make sure there is no leaven in the loaf, otherwise the whole loaf ends up leavened. (1 Cor. 5:6)



I did prove it, as I said BTW, it's the only place in the bible God says to test Him. I did. I explained it in a earlier post. I wasn't tithing, I was told by a co worker the scriptures in Malachi, I told God , in prayer, I would test Him as He said.. I tithed and that week I received more than I tithed.

See, BTW, in prayer, I told God, I will test you on this, I will tithe and if that's what you would have me to do, then bless me where I will have no doubt. Now, should I just ignore that and do what I want to do anyway? There is nothing, that any person can say to me that will change my mind. This is between me and God. And anyone that would tell me not to tithe, after God showed me that's what He would have me do, is a temptation from Satan to steal my testimony on faith.




I see. So, of the monetary support handed over to your organization, its own expenditures are secondary to the meeting of needs?

Yes, we have no building, and the roof leaks. When in a church, and I've been to several, if the church was more focused on the building fund, or the new carpet, instead of helping those in need, I changed churches. I don't think you do see.






Let me ask you: Do you not trust yourself to meet needs directly?

I do, that is my offering. God blesses me that I might bless others. The blessings being the result of my tithing.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Why use organized religion to do what we all should be doing ourselves?

Because , when working to take care of one's self and family ; when taking care of all of one's responsibilities outside of the meetings , people are adults . They could be a soldier and fighting to keep themselves and others alove . They could be corporate executives in charge of huge projects and many employees . They could be judges or jurors deciding the fate of people . They could be government leaders making huge decisions that effect the whole world . However , once together in a religious meeting , they are all told that they can't do anything without one or few telling them what to do . They are not to be trusted and that chaos would ensue if left to themselves . They are considered and treated as children and - the saddest part - they accept that role .

 

[probinson]

Because , when working to take care of one's self and family ; when taking care of all of one's responsibilities outside of the meetings , people are adults . They could be a soldier and fighting to keep themselves and others alove . They could be corporate executives in charge of huge projects and many employees . They could be judges or jurors deciding the fate of people . They could be government leaders making huge decisions that effect the whole world . However , once together in a religious meeting , they are all told that they can't do anything without one or few telling them what to do . They are not to be trusted and that chaos would ensue if left to themselves . They are considered and treated as children and - the saddest part - they accept that role .

Is this what most churches are like? Because this certainly isn't what my church is like and absolutely NOTHING like what our pastor teaches us. I feel sorry for anyone in a church like described above.