Tithing - Another View

[lismore]

You may notice a trend in this post, people who don't tithe are bitter about titheing, those who do are enthusiastic about it. Dose anybody else find that odd? I don't, because God has increased thier wealth ten fold just as He promised, it's not a wonder they're grateful.

I dont give give in order just to get back its because its the right thing to do.

what you give to get 10x back? Where is this promise please?

 

[probinson]

I hesitantly re-enter this debate....

Let me say this: Show me all your scripture. Say that tithe was food. Say it's being "legalistic" to "only" give 10% (who said 10% was ALL you could give anyway?).

Tithing is about obedience. It is showing reverence to God. When we obey, we are blessed. The times when I've tithed even when I "couldn't afford to", God has shown Himself mighty on my behalf. It's saying, God, I trust in You and You alone. As others have said, it's the only place in the Bible where God tells us to test Him. I have. It works.

I live in a small town. Business is floundering. I have a degree in Computer Aided design. Not much work in my field in this area. But God has given me a position in a business that in the world's eyes, is floundering, but He has prospered me tremendously because my faithfulness to tithe AND give offerings.

I started working here almost 3 years ago. Work is now a whole 4 minutes from my house, so the current gas price increase has hardly phased me at all. I've been through six different lay-offs/downsizing/outsourcing. People that had been here for 30+ years were let go. We went from a company of 1,000 people 3 years ago to a company of about 150 people now. I'm still here. Not only that, but in 3 short years, I make nearly 50% more than when I started here. This year, they made the announcement that there would be no raises. But guess what?! I was promoted with a 20% increase! To talk to most people here, it's taken them 20 years to increase 50% in their salary. God is working mightily on my behalf. But it's because of my faithfulness and obedience to tithe and give offerings, even when it isn't easy.

No one will ever convince me otherwise. I've seen it work. I know what happens when I tithe, and I know what happens when I don't. If I'm obedient, He pours out blessings beyond my wildest imaginations.

 

[Doug45]

This is your defense? I don't have to read anything into the scriptures. The simple fact stands undisputed, at least successfully, that the word of God made no command whatsoever for wage earners of Israel to give the Levite a tenth of his wages. Now, if you have something that shows otherwise, apart from vain reasonings that find no support from scripture, then I'm more than willing to look it over, and I'm sure everyone else here would like to see it as well.

BTW

Funny, your distinction between increase and earnings is good logic and acceptible reasoning on your part, but the same analogy with an opposite perspective isn't worth your consideration.

That is simply an unteachable and isolated spirit. You keep saying that your perspective is founded in the word and therefore undisputable and correct but not all people here agree with your perspectives or interpretation of the scripture are in fact legitimate. This attitude would suggest that your perspective of the truth is = to the truth. I would suggest that this is arrogance.

If you believe that everything that you perceive to be true is in fact true then you have no more need for learning because you know it all and those concepts that you know are the truth.

You might consider answering Andrew's post #71 in light of your convictions.

My perception is that you can't handle working for $ and giving the 'control' of how they are used up to anyonelse. Therefore, it is easier to interpret the scripture in a manner that suits your need. This is contrary to the spirit of what occurs when the church really functions. See Acts 5.

Blessings,

Doug

 

[Doug45]

The context doesn't appear to support your assumption.

BTW

Convenient observation.


Doug

 

[Doug45]

The problem is that people are handing over the primary portion of their giving to organized religion, which abuses that giving.

Not your responsibility. They answer for their own sin.


[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
We too are kings and priests unto the Most High God:

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

How true but irrelevant unless you are suggesting that we should tithe to you?
[/font]BTW

Doug

 

[Andry]

You may notice a trend in this post, people who don't tithe are bitter about titheing, those who do are enthusiastic about it. Dose anybody else find that odd? I don't, because God has increased thier wealth ten fold just as He promised, it's not a wonder they're grateful.

I take exception to that. Not offense, mind you - exception. Hang out here a wee longer, and you will find that many of us who are non-tithers are generous givers. We are not "non-tithing" to excuse us from giving.

Not sure if you've read all the posts in this thread, but as I previously stated, I don't tithe. But I give more than the tithe.

Some of us may give 10% of our income - which is a wonderful starting point - but none of us here Biblically tithe.

Our blessings from the Lord does not come whether we tithe or not, but because of the work of the cross - because he loves us. We can't earn anymore of his blessings. Of course we strive to be obedient, but it's not to earn more blessings (I know you didn't say this, but just me rambling). Now there are the principles of sowing and reaping - which can be a different thread altogether - but it's got as much or as little to do with the tithe as it does with simply giving or sowing.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Let me say this: Show me all your scripture. Say that tithe was food. Say it's being "legalistic" to "only" give 10% (who said 10% was ALL you could give anyway?).

Pete, not to "pick" on you - but just to generally address this question:

Deut 14

Lev 27

Numbers 18

So my question would be, show me where God "switched" it from what He specifically defined it as, who He specifically designated it was to go to, and where it was specifically designated to be taken.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I take exception to that. Not offense, mind you - exception. Hang out here a wee longer, and you will find that many of us who are non-tithers are generous givers. We are not "non-tithing" to excuse us from giving.

Not sure if you've read all the posts in this thread, but as I previously stated, I don't tithe. But I give more than the tithe.

Some of us may give 10% of our income - which is a wonderful starting point - but none of us here Biblically tithe.

Our blessings from the Lord does not come whether we tithe or not, but because of the work of the cross - because he loves us. We can't earn anymore of his blessings. Of course we strive to be obedient, but it's not to earn more blessings (I know you didn't say this, but just me rambling). Now there are the principles of sowing and reaping - which can be a different thread altogether - but it's got as much or as little to do with the tithe as it does with simply giving or sowing.

Once again, amen brotha..............

 

[Andyman_1970]

If I'm obedient, He pours out blessings beyond my wildest imaginations.

So God's love for us is not unconditional???

 

[Andry]

Once again, amen brotha..............

Dude....you're a 'tithe-magnet'. (and also my "Torah-reference go-to-guy").

 

[Freakconformist]

I dont give give in order just to get back its because its the right thing to do.

what you give to get 10x back? Where is this promise please?

Malachai 3:10
Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.

You're right, 10x's is just an expression we use in our church it's not biblical. God says He will give back more. And it's all for the good if you don't expect any good from it, but it is God's promise, so you can expect it non-the less.

I take exception to that. Not offense, mind you - exception. Hang out here a wee longer, and you will find that many of us who are non-tithers are generous givers. We are not "non-tithing" to excuse us from giving.

Not sure if you've read all the posts in this thread, but as I previously stated, I don't tithe. But I give more than the tithe.

Some of us may give 10% of our income - which is a wonderful starting point - but none of us here Biblically tithe.

Our blessings from the Lord does not come whether we tithe or not, but because of the work of the cross - because he loves us. We can't earn anymore of his blessings. Of course we strive to be obedient, but it's not to earn more blessings (I know you didn't say this, but just me rambling). Now there are the principles of sowing and reaping - which can be a different thread altogether - but it's got as much or as little to do with the tithe as it does with simply giving or sowing.

I'm not sure you read my whole post...

If somebody rather give a 100% of anything rather then one cent of money, let him.

Of coarse, my pastors considers anything given beyond the tithe as an offering. Which is also not offencive to God so I still don't see what people are arguing about.

Edit: I see alot of corolation between tithing and how God blesses us. It seems significant to me that this (Malachi 3:10) is the only place in the Bible where God says we can test Him. In all other cases He says "You shall not test your Lord, Your God." Of coarse when I refer to "tithe" I speak of more the just money, so I think this is where you mis-interpeted me.

As I see it, it maybe an arrogence to persume of God, but it's just as arrogent to refuse His blessings.

 

[probinson]

Pete, not to "pick" on you - but just to generally address this question:

Deut 14

Lev 27

Numbers 18

So my question would be, show me where God "switched" it from what He specifically defined it as, who He specifically designated it was to go to, and where it was specifically designated to be taken.

No problem my friend. I don't think you're picking on me.

As I look back over my life, I've felt the deisre to tithe, not because I was taught that way, but because I've learned this from my relationship with the Father. The times when I've stopped tithing for whatever reason (selfishness, insufficient funds to "afford" to tithe, etc.) my finances have been in a mess. As soon as I repent and begin to tithe again, the blessings start to flow.

Now 2 things are possible here. Either the devil has deceived (read, blessed) me so that I could be a larger blessing to my church and my community, OR I've received a revelation from God on tithing. Call me crazy, but I don't think the devil would bless me just to "hold me in bondage" about tithing.

Tithing is not about your money (food, grain, animals, etc.) and the amount you give. Tithing is about my Father in heaven commanding me to give 10% and me obeying willingly. That is pleasing to the Father. It's pleasing to me as a father when I say something to my son and he obeys me, not because he has to, but because he wants to.

So where is the explanation for all of my experience with tithing? Should I throw the last 20 years of experience and blessings out the window (I started tithing when I was 8 on my $1.00/week allowance) because you read scripture differently than I do? Please explain to me how every time I stopped tithing through my life, I immediately encountered financial hardship. Coincidence? And how every time I repented and started tithing again God's blessings began to flow again and the hardships just disappeared. Another coincidence?

So God's love for us is not unconditional???

Who said anything about God's love? God's blessings. Not God's love. God loves us unconditionally yes, but the Bible says that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. Sounds conditional to me.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Malachai 3:10
Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.

Malachai is specifically referring to the tithe as defined in the Torah, which was ALWAYS grain/produce/animals used to take care of the needs of the Preists/poor/fatherless/widow/alien. The Torah is chock full of commands that the rich should not get richer at the expense of the poor, and that those who have have a God given responsibility to take care of those who do not have - remember in Malachi's day there was a terrible famine, thousands of people were starving to death in Israel, so Malachi is specifically referring to taking care of the needs of those who are hungry (sounds alot like Jesus in the end of Matthew 25).

The idea that the passage in Malachai refers to us today and our giving of currency has no Biblical basis, no historical basis, and no cultural basis (that would be Jewish).

 

[Andyman_1970]

No problem my friend. I don't think you're picking on me.

As I look back over my life, I've felt the deisre to tithe, not because I was taught that way, but because I've learned this from my relationship with the Father. The times when I've stopped tithing for whatever reason (selfishness, insufficient funds to "afford" to tithe, etc.) my finances have been in a mess. As soon as I repent and begin to tithe again, the blessings start to flow.

Now 2 things are possible here. Either the devil has deceived (read, blessed) me so that I could be a larger blessing to my church and my community, OR I've received a revelation from God on tithing. Call me crazy, but I don't think the devil would bless me just to "hold me in bondage" about tithing.

I don’t hold you in “bondage” for tithing (well technically giving 10%), that’s great, I celebrate the movement of God where ever it occurs, I believe all followers of Jesus should be generous with what God has given us.

Tithing is not about your money (food, grain, animals, etc.) and the amount you give.

Biblically it is – how do we know what we are suppose to do, how are we suppose know about God and such if we don’t use the Holy Scriptures as our baseline? How can one say a tithe is XYZ when the Bible specifically says otherwise. If in fact the Holy Scriptures “approve” of currency to be given, to someone other than the Levites, for the use of something other than taking care of the Levites/poor/fatherless/widow/alien I would like to know, please feel free to share that with us.

Tithing is about my Father in heaven commanding me to give 10% and me obeying willingly.

How do you know He commands you to tithe, was it from the Scriptures or did He “tell” you personally?

Read Psalm 119 is speaks of those being blessed for keeping God’s commands, the word there used for “statues” in verse 2 specifically refers to the Torah – which as I’ve shown specifically defines the tithe. It goes on to say that His Word (that would again be the Scriptures Old Testament in this case, and specifically the Torah) are a guide and lamp unto our feet. So how can one know they are doing what God intends them to do apart from referencing the Scriptures?

That is pleasing to the Father. It's pleasing to me as a father when I say something to my son and he obeys me, not because he has to, but because he wants to.

See my comments on Psalm 119 - how do you it's pleasing to the Father apart from His Holy Word??

So where is the explanation for all of my experience with tithing? Should I throw the last 20 years of experience and blessings out the window (I started tithing when I was 8 on my $1.00/week allowance) because you read scripture differently than I do? Please explain to me how every time I stopped tithing through my life, I immediately encountered financial hardship. Coincidence? And how every time I repented and started tithing again God's blessings began to flow again and the hardships just disappeared. Another coincidence?

I would never argue that God does not “approve” of giving – however to assert that one is somehow being “obedient” by an arbitrary giving 10% of their income thinking it is somehow a Biblical tithe is not accurate – no one has Biblically been able to provide anything to the contrary (in it’s proper context of course).

Who said anything about God's love? God's blessings. Not God's love. God loves us unconditionally yes, but the Bible says that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. Sounds conditional to me.

The implication that one does things and thus earns God’s favor is contrary to the unconditional nature of His love. Remember Jesus also says that God blesses those who don’t even acknowledge Him with the rains to make their crops grow.

 

[probinson]

Biblically it is – how do we know what we are suppose to do, how are we suppose know about God and such if we don’t use the Holy Scriptures as our baseline? How can one say a tithe is XYZ when the Bible specifically says otherwise. If in fact the Holy Scriptures “approve” of currency to be given, to someone other than the Levites, for the use of something other than taking care of the Levites/poor/fatherless/widow/alien I would like to know, please feel free to share that with us.

The Holy Scriptures also say that if your eye causes you to sin, you should pluck it out. Has your eye caused you to sin? Did you pluck it out?

God is not limited by the Holy Scriptures. Nothing God tells someone will go contrary to scripture, but it may go contrary to how we see it or what we've been taught or our own human wisdom. I've seen the principle of tithing work, again and again and again.

As I've said before, it's pointless to argue this. You'll not convince me and I'll not convince you, so we must just agree to disagree. Cool?

 

[Andyman_1970]

The Holy Scriptures also say that if your eye causes you to sin, you should pluck it out. Has your eye caused you to sin? Did you pluck it out?

Context my friend context, the Scripture also implies it’s permissible to own slaves. I guess I just can’t run all “fast and loose” with interpreting the Scriptures.

God is not limited by the Holy Scriptures. Nothing God tells someone will go contrary to scripture, but it may go contrary to how we see it or what we've been taught or our own human wisdom. I've seen the principle of tithing work, again and again and again.

So once again, please, share with the audience, where God changed the tithe and that the giving believers do today is a tithe Biblically. I agree that the principle of giving is a wonderful Biblical principle, but to assert that somehow we tithe today is not Biblically accurate.

Here’s my problem with taking the Scriptures out of context and why I’m so rabid and will be until the day I die about using context to understand the Scritpures.

When the Bible are divorced of the historical, cultural and linguistic context in which they were written a dangerous "space" of understanding is created for people to remake Jesus into whatever they decide He should be.

This happened in the 20’s and 30’s in Germany. The German theologians at the time were so “gun shy” of persuing the historical aspect of Jesus because of the teachings of Albert Schweitzer and such those in Germany in the 20’s and 30’s totally denied the historical aspect of Jesus and the Bible. Instead they formed their understanding on ideas and docrtrines like Karl Barth’s church Dogmatics and Rudolf Bultman’s existential theology. This denial of the historical aspect of Jesus and the Bible resulted in this “space” of understanding for the Nazi ideology to take hold in which they remade Jesus to fit their Arian mold – so much so that they declared Jesus was not particularly Jewish so much so they taught He was anti-Jewish – according to Ernst Käsemann's speech in 1953.

This is exactly why I’m so rabid about context, I think it is extremely dangerous when people use that “space” of understanding to remake Jesus into anything that suits their ideology.

As I've said before, it's pointless to argue this. You'll not convince me and I'll not convince you, so we must just agree to disagree. Cool?

I’m down with that brotha…………

 

[non-religious]

[Andyman_1970]Context my friend context, the Scripture also implies it’s permissible to own slaves. I guess I just can’t run all “fast and loose” with interpreting the Scriptures.



So once again, please, share with the audience, where God changed the tithe and that the giving believers do today is a tithe Biblically. I agree that the principle of giving is a wonderful Biblical principle, but to assert that somehow we tithe today is not Biblically accurate.

Here’s my problem with taking the Scriptures out of context and why I’m so rabid and will be until the day I die about using context to understand the Scritpures.

When the Bible are divorced of the historical, cultural and linguistic context in which they were written a dangerous "space" of understanding is created for people to remake Jesus into whatever they decide He should be.

This happened in the 20’s and 30’s in Germany. The German theologians at the time were so “gun shy” of persuing the historical aspect of Jesus because of the teachings of Albert Schweitzer and such those in Germany in the 20’s and 30’s totally denied the historical aspect of Jesus and the Bible. Instead they formed their understanding on ideas and docrtrines like Karl Barth’s church Dogmatics and Rudolf Bultman’s existential theology. This denial of the historical aspect of Jesus and the Bible resulted in this “space” of understanding for the Nazi ideology to take hold in which they remade Jesus to fit their Arian mold – so much so that they declared Jesus was not particularly Jewish so much so they taught He was anti-Jewish – according to Ernst Käsemann's speech in 1953.

This is exactly why I’m so rabid about context, I think it is extremely dangerous when people use that “space” of understanding to remake Jesus into anything that suits their ideology.

Excellent post

 

[probinson]

This happened in the 20’s and 30’s in Germany. The German theologians at the time were so “gun shy” of persuing the historical aspect of Jesus because of the teachings of Albert Schweitzer and such those in Germany in the 20’s and 30’s totally denied the historical aspect of Jesus and the Bible. Instead they formed their understanding on ideas and docrtrines like Karl Barth’s church Dogmatics and Rudolf Bultman’s existential theology. This denial of the historical aspect of Jesus and the Bible resulted in this “space” of understanding for the Nazi ideology to take hold in which they remade Jesus to fit their Arian mold – so much so that they declared Jesus was not particularly Jewish so much so they taught He was anti-Jewish – according to Ernst Käsemann's speech in 1953.

This is exactly why I’m so rabid about context, I think it is extremely dangerous when people use that “space” of understanding to remake Jesus into anything that suits their ideology.
I’m down with that brotha…………

I never thought I'd see a thread on CF invoke Godwin's Law. And in comparison to tithing and blessings?

Nazis and tithing?! Come on bro!

 

[Doug45]

Context my friend context, the Scripture also implies it’s permissible to own slaves. I guess I just can’t run all “fast and loose” with interpreting the Scriptures.
/QUOTE]

Please help me to understand why you feel that probinson's statement about plucking your eye out if it causes you to sin has any connection to slavery? I looked at the context in the Sermon on the Mount quickly and don't see any mention either justifying or speaking against slavery.

I am left to believe your casual flipping off the question with the 'context' excuse in response to one passage and a demand for absolute compliance to the letter in another instance is hypocritical. I wouldn't want to be left with that thought so please help me fiind the verse that connects Jesus statement in the Sermon to slavery and therefore creates a problem in context for you.

Doug

 

[Freakconformist]

Malachai is specifically referring to the tithe as defined in the Torah, which was ALWAYS grain/produce/animals used to take care of the needs of the Preists/poor/fatherless/widow/alien. The Torah is chock full of commands that the rich should not get richer at the expense of the poor, and that those who have have a God given responsibility to take care of those who do not have - remember in Malachi's day there was a terrible famine, thousands of people were starving to death in Israel, so Malachi is specifically referring to taking care of the needs of those who are hungry (sounds alot like Jesus in the end of Matthew 25).

The idea that the passage in Malachai refers to us today and our giving of currency has no Biblical basis, no historical basis, and no cultural basis (that would be Jewish).

Again you are not reading my whole post. I said it several times. Tithe doesn't just refer to money, it can refer to many things.
Room and board for a evicted mamber of the church? Donating food and/or clothing to the poorer members of the church? Old child's toys to the Children's Church? Prayer and/ or counciling for members of the church who have hit a rough spot?
Or you can make your tithe more personal, giving God a part of your life that has been keeping you back. Like an addiction, or something you've been idolizing. These are the kind of the I think God rather see then money, which is useless to Him anyways.

As for saying that the Old Testiment doesn't apply to the modern Christian... I'm sorry but that's just self delusion. Jesus saved us from the wages of sin, that doesn't mean that God "changed His mind". Things very much still apply, the Bible and was compelated with the blessing of God, to be a guide for us today. Everything in the Bible applys to us, not just the parts we like.