Tithing and First Fruits In Light of 2 Corinthians 9:7

godson777 · Nov 2, 2005

PastorJ said:
Hi Godson,
I personally believe that tithes and firstfruits are 2 different things. Tithe is the tenth of all income. On the other hand, firstfruits were the whole amount of the first increase.

But you would have to look to the law of the Old Covenant for support of this idea. Before the law Abraham tithed from the plunder (not his herds and crops of his own wealth), which was just a custom of His day, and Jacob decided in his own heart that he wanted to give God 10% of all that God gave him. Neither of these men were told by God to tithe, neither said this was the beginning of a principle of tithing, and only one gave from his personal heards and flocks.

If tithing was really an eternal principle that we all must obey then we would have seen it back when Cain and Abel gave their offerings. However, we don't. God looked with favor upon Abel, not because he gave 10% and then an offering above that tithe, but because it was his firstfruits - sacrificial, generous, valuable. When Jacob decided to give God 10% he was giving God his firstfuits. He was not seperating tithing from offeirng from firstfuits.

If you want to know how to give to God then look at the very first offering ever given to God. Abel gave God a sacrificial, generous, valuable offering and it pleased God. When we obey the law of Love of our new covenant we will do the same thing and God will look upon our offering with favour. The laws of tithing have been abolished, and the principle never existed before the law. Before the law, all that existed were customs and the principle of firstfruits.

godson777 · Nov 2, 2005

Prosperity said:
I know that you believe what you are saying, and I will be open to the fact that you might be right. Suffer me my inquiry. Please provide scripture in the New Testament that tells me that Jesus didn't pay all of my debts, including the mandatory 10% tithe, which in your own words is a debt, something that we owe. Why would we still "owe" God tithes if we are debt free?

I do cheerfully give, but it is more difficulty for me to be cheerful when paying a debt.

Again, from the New Testament, please show me clearly in scripture that there is a difference between tithe and offerings. I know the distinction in the old Testament, but I don't see the same legalistic/obligatory approach to giving in the New Testament.

Great post Prosperity!!!

godson777 · Nov 2, 2005

Tithing is all about honoring God with our substance. When we refuse to tithe we are no robbing God of our 50 bucks. We are robbing Him of the honor that is due to Him. The question isnt should we still tithe today? the question is should we still honor God today?
Proverbs 3:9-10 KJV(9) Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase 10) So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

When we honour God with our substance we will be prosperous. However, honouring God with our substance was done differently before, during and after the Law. Before the Law it was done by offering the firstfuits and what was valuable to you (Abel & Jacob), during the Law it was done by paying the three tithes, and after the Law of Moses it is done by operating in love and once again giving God your firstfruits (of which there is no set amount).

We must always honour God. The question is HOW do we honour God? There is a difference between how we honour God under the Law of Moses, and not under the Law of Moses. Under the law of Moses it was all prescribed and set in concrete how it was done, but outside of the Law of Moses it is determined by the generosity and love that it is in your heart.

One more thing I'd like to add:I think you mentioned earlier (something to the effect) that "we dont have to tithe ten percent, but we should tithe something." I have trouble with that statement because the very word "tithe" itself means "tenth". Its a mathmatical impossiblity for instance to tithe 5%.
I think that it just comes down to whether or not you believe we should tithe and I wouldf respect you the same if you didnt.
PJ

I understand that tithe means tenth. I never said that quote you gave. I was talking about giving 5% as opposed to giving 20%.

We don't have to tithe. There is no set amount to give under our new covenant. It is all determined by the heart.

PastorJoey · Nov 2, 2005

godson777 said:
When Jacob decided to give God 10% he was giving God his firstfuits. He was not seperating tithing from offeirng from firstfuits.
QUOTE]

2 Chronicles 31:5 KJV

(5) And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all [things] brought they in abundantly.
Pastor J

godson777 · Nov 2, 2005

PastorJ said:
To try and answer your first question, mabye "owe" wasnt the best choice of words. It just rhymed with sow ! He, He!
I beleive Tithing is not the payment of a debt, but the acknowledgement of a debt." Yes Jesus paid all debts, but tithing even acknowledges that our debt has been paid. I use the customary nt verses that mention tithing, Jesus "this should you do and not leave the other undone" & the book of Hebrews,"there He receives them of whom it witnesses that He liveth" Is Jesus alive? the answer to this, I believe should answer the question of tithing. Just my conviction. I am interested though on you take of it.
Lake

Jesus said to not leave the others undone because the Law of Moses had not yet been nailed to the cross and cancelled.

The Hebrews verse is not saying that the new testament church offered tithes to Melkizidek because he is still alive. It is talking about the Levitical Priesthood and Melkezidek and how he is Jesus and stuff... but its not saying that we offer tithes to him. It is talking about Abraham's tithe from the plunder to Him.

godson777 · Nov 2, 2005

PastorJ said:
godson777 said:

When Jacob decided to give God 10% he was giving God his firstfuits. He was not seperating tithing from offeirng from firstfuits.
QUOTE]

2 Chronicles 31:5 KJV

(5) And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all [things] brought they in abundantly.
Pastor J

Click to expand...

Exactly my point. The tithe and the firstfruits are in many ways the same thing. Paying the tithes was the old covenant way of bringing in the firstfruits. When Jacob decided in his own heart he wanted to give God 10% he was giving his firstfruits.

The point is, outisde the law, we just give firstfruits. If we choose to give God 10% because that is generous then that becomes our firstfruits offering. If we choose to give God 30% because that is generous then that becomes our firstfuits offering.

godson777 · Nov 2, 2005

Prosperity said:
Pastor J,

I forgot to say in my last post;

I don't think that legalistic giving pleases God anymore. We are to give out of love, knowing that our heavenly Father loves us and that we will have a manifold harvest from our love love seeds sown.

I'm starting to think that many members of the congregation give sparingly out of the fear of not having enough. They also compound thier problem when legalistically to try to leverage God to pay them what they believe He owes them. Likewise I think that Preachers preach many legalistic aspects giving because they think it will help to motivate the congregation to give enough to meet the Church's needs.

I think that this accounts for why many Word of Faith people, both the leaders and the led, to live busted and disgusted. They're new covenant people who are teaching and giving legalistically rather that out of their love of God.

I do believe some have garnered some success in legalistic style giving because the giver is giving out of his/her love of God and it is for the sake of that love that Gods rewards them.

I agree.

godson777 · Nov 2, 2005

I agree Prosperity that everything we do for God, rather, allow Him to do thru us, should be done out of a willing heart first. Tithing to me is simply about honoring God, which we are commanded to do so.

We are to live lives that honour God, but we are never commanded to give 10%. Paul even said that the Corinthians didn't have to give anything at all. We are called to walk in love and give firstfruits. There is no set amount!

PastorJoey · Nov 2, 2005

Godson, I respect your beliefs on this matter and I wouldnt try to get you to change them. Stick to it and dont change for nobody, unless it is God who is wanting the change. I have one question for you: "Do you believe that a non tither could walk in the full blessings of God for their lives"?
PastorJ

godson777 · Nov 2, 2005

"Do you believe that a non tither could walk in the full blessings of God for their lives"?

Only if they were living a life of love in which they honoured God by giving Him the firstfruits of their increase which meant that they were giving consistently, generously, sacrificially, cheerfully, and not for the praise of men. To be honest, I doubt that anyone who isn't giving at least 10% will walk in the fullness of the blessing of God, but I refuse to say that there is a law or principle under our new covenant that says that we must give a certain amount, whether that be 10% or 23% or whatever. As Paul says: "He who sows generously will reap generously".

Prosperity · Nov 2, 2005

PastorJ,

We are not far apart.

Would you please specifically address the underscored portion of the following statement I made?

With the afore mentioned serving as a backdrop for the preceding, then why should I try to fulfill any part of the law, since Jesus fulfilled the law and removed the curse from me?

PastorJoey · Nov 2, 2005

Prosperity said:
PastorJ,

We are not far apart.

Would you please specifically address the underscored portion of the following statement I made?

Never write a long response using the reply boxes provided. Write your response on a word document then cut and paste.
I am learning the hard way. Sorry Prosperity. I'll re write later.
Pastor J

godson777 · Nov 2, 2005

PastorJ said:
Never write a long response using the reply boxes provided. Write your response on a word document then cut and paste.
I am learning the hard way. Sorry Prosperity. I'll re write later.
Pastor J

Haha! I hate it when that happens!

Prosperity · Nov 2, 2005

Hi Guys,

I posted this some time back, with no response.

I'd be interested inm what you two guys think of this verse. As I said before, "I don't see the following as two disjointed thoughts. What I do see is a direct relationship between the prosperity of our soul and our health/prosperity."

3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

godson777 · Nov 2, 2005

2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers.

John was praying this over his friend Gaius. Clearly it was the will of God that Gaius be prospering in every sphere of life (finances, relationships, business, family etc) and be in perfect health. God wants you rich and blessed and walking in favour and protection and he wants your body to be fit, healthy and strong.

It is interesting to note that John then linked this "total life prosperity" to the prosperity of the soul of Gaius. I believe that the soul is made up of the mind, the will and the emotions of the person. John was basically saying that "because I see your soul prospering, I want every other area of your life to prosper to the same extent." If Gaius' soul was weak and poor there is no way he could handle wealth and success without changing his focus from the blesser to the blessing. It is commonly said that God doesn't want money to have us, he wants us to have money. Without a prosperous soul ie; a wise and knowlegable mind; healthy, strong, and controlled emotions; and a will that is aligned with God's will (this all comes by reading the Word and spending time in the presence of God), you are vulnerable to begin chasing "all these things" instead of "seeking first the kingdom of God."

It is always the desired will of God, for us to be walking in great and abundant prosperity. However, sometimes, out of God's mercy, He knows that if we do not have a prosperous soul, the blessing of prosperity actually becomes a curse to us because we do not have the wisdom or understanding or maturity to handle it.

John saw the wisdom, maturity, knowlege, and stabillty of Gaius and knew that the blessing of prosperity would truly be a blessing in his life - so he therefore willed and prayed that Gaius would experience total life prosperity to the extent that his soul was prospering.

MORAL OF THE STORY: We should prosper to the extent that our soul can handle it, so that the blessing of prosperity doesn't become a curse in our life that leads us away from God.

PastorJoey · Nov 2, 2005

Prosperity said:
Hi Guys,

I posted this some time back, with no response.

I'd be interested inm what you two guys think of this verse. As I said before, "I don't see the following as two disjointed thoughts. What I do see is a direct relationship between the prosperity of our soul and our health/prosperity."

3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Here is something I wrote on a previous post:
Dr. Murdock has a good definition of biblical prosperity:

"Prosperity is having more than enough to complete a God given assignment".
He also says, "Prosperity means never having to say 'no' to God."

God is for material prosperity, but He is not for any prosperity that exceeds soul/spirit prosperity. The word says,"A false balance is an abomination to the Lord. But a just weight is His delight."
3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. "even as " means, in direct proportion to.

This is more than a formal hallmark greeting as has been taught. How cruel could Paul be to tell his converts that God (all scripture is given by inspiration) wanted them to prosper outwardly as much as inwardly and not really mean it. "even as" means "in direct proportion to" "nothing more nothing less".
It is only wrong when we begin to prosper outwardly more than we are prospering inwardly. Remember, a false balance is an abomination to the Lord.
Pastor J

Prosperity · Nov 2, 2005

We should prosper to the extent that our soul can handle it,...

I read this as, we will prosper to the extent that our soul can think/believe it. In other words, you life will be a direct reflection of how prosperous you soul is.

Proverbs 23:7 For as he thinketh (soul) in his heart (soul), so is he:

Philippians 2:5-7
5 Let this mind (soul) be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought (soul) it not robbery to be equal with God:

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing (soul),and hearing (soul) by the word of God.

Decide (soul) to speak words of life.

Profess it so you mind (soul) can hear (soul) it.

Your thoughts will determine you decisions (soul);
Your decisions will determine your actions;
Your actions will become your habits;
Your habits develop your character; and
Your character will determine your destiny.
Thought life- Decisions- Actions- Habits -Character -Destiny

Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe (soul) that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

Believe (soul) that what you are saying will happen, when you say it. Prophecy over the issues in you life. Give God something to work with.

Prosperity · Nov 2, 2005

So now the question is, "What is a prosperous you soul?"

PastorJoey · Nov 2, 2005

PastorJ,

We are not far apart.

Would you please specifically address the underscored portion of the following statement I made?

Quote

With the afore mentioned serving as a backdrop for the preceding, then why should I try to fulfill any part of the law, since Jesus fulfilled the law and removed the curse from me?

I do not believe that there are any new concepts presented in the law that God did not already require. The law was written because of the rebellious and disobedient hearts of Israel. IT was written to get them back on track with God. It was not some form of punishment, it was guide lines for living a blessed and prosperous life (Joshua 1:6-8).

I don't believe that purposing to obey God's law necessarily equates to trying to fulfill it. It is often quoted, Jesus fulfilled the law so I don't have to. I don't believe that this is accurate. I know what is trying to be said, but it is misleading. People have run wild with that! Instead, Jesus fulfilled the law and bore its curse so that when I miss the mark, the curse is no longer there to pounce on me.
PJ

godson777 · Nov 3, 2005

Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe (soul) that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

Believe (soul) that what you are saying will happen, when you say it. Prophecy over the issues in you life. Give God something to work with.

What do you say to the people who believe that the heart is the spirit and not the soul?

Tithing and First Fruits In Light of 2 Corinthians 9:7

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