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Tithe of the Law

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Hervey, Dec 28, 2001.

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  1. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    psalms 22.3

    I can see the possible confusion, but lets look at the whole statement, and not just part of it, alright. As I know you are putting forth great effort here to show what you believe to be true.

    The first thing I think we can agree on, is that Jesus Christ said - "ye pay tithe" of mint and anise and cummin". So he recognized that they were giving the tithe of these three things - correct ?

    Then he mentions that they "OMITTED" the "weighter" things -- judgment, mercy, and faith - correct ?

    Then he says that you ought to have done these (plural) - speaking about judgment, mercy, and faith - correct ?

    Then he says - "and not to leave the other undone" -- Ask yourself - "The "OTHER" what" ? He already recognized them giving the tithe ! The understanding here is --- "The "OTHER" pertains to the "OTHER" parts of the Law, OF WHICH Jesus mentions them --- judgment, mercy, and faith, is "WHAT" they were leaving "undone", because they already gave the "tithe", as Jesus Christ already recognized this part that they "did", but what they left "UNDONE" was "judgment", "mercy", and "faith".

    Do you see what I am try to explain now ?

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  2. apostle

    apostle An Apostle of Christ

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    I suspect that God will love you no matter what. He loves you whether you pay tithe or not, whether you go to church on Saturday or Sunday, whether you are Catholic or Christian. As long as you have accepted Jesus as your Saviour, you are going to be okay.

    Peace, everyone, let's agree to disagree. For what it's worth, I pay tithe. But if you don't that's fine too.
     
  3. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    hervey
    i dont see it that way.
    he was saying, you pay tithe, but you dont have judgment mercy or faith, so do those 3, but dont stop doing what you already are.

    he told them to pay do those 3, and also said that they needed to continue paying tithe.

    he was saying that werent complete in there obedience to the law, he wasnt saying they were wrong in what they did do.

    he was telling them to complete their actions, not replace their actions.
     
  4. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    This subject, pertaining to my original post , which points out, that the tithe was of "The Law". Which now has deterioated by those who wish to ignore the original intent of this post.

    The "Church" was "never" told to tithe !!

    It was not commanded in any way !!

    Giving, is a principle within the Word of God. And the principle of "giving", is also established in the NT, under the New covenant.

    The "tithe" however was a part of the Law, and it was addressed unto Israel, and not unto the Church.

    If one teaches that the tithe is addressed unto the Church , they have fallen from grace, Christ is of no effect unto you (Gal.chapter5)

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  5. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    ok calm down bro, im not as proud or stubborn as you think.

    i agree it was in the law,
    i basicly agree with everything you have said that "you say" proves your point.
    i have not tried to run from you or your statements, im not trying to avoid anything.

    he told those pharisees to tithe.
    i cant get around that.

    the dispensation of grace was present since john the baptist.
    i cant get around that.

    it was in the law.
    i cant get around that either.

    really, theres alot i dont understand.
    but please see that im not simply avoiding you, im not doing this simply becuase i am stubborn.
    please see that i truely am seeking god, theres much i dont understand, but im doing the best i can.

    christ commanded them to doit, (as for me) that basicly rules out everything else.

    im not saying he contradicts and over rules pauls teachings, they cannot contradict. but christ said it. theres simply something im missong somewhere.
    i trust him, im simply trusting him. when i figure everything out one day ill get back to you on it.
    but please see im not simply being hardheaded.
     
  6. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    well lets look and see

    actually
    your summary of gal 5 was incorrect.

    5.2
    behold i paul say unto you, that if ye BE CURCUMCISED, christ shall profit you nothing.

    5.3
    for i testify again to every man that is CURCUMCISED, that he is a debtor to the whole law.

    5.4
    christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are JUSTIFIED by the law, ye have fallen from grace.

    ok,
    no where in there did it address tithing.
    no where in there did it even say what you have been saying "to obey any of the laws means to be under them all"
    it said curcumsision, thats all it said.

    it said only curcumsision because thats how they were justified before the N.T.
    they werent justified by the tithe.

    totally diffrent thing.

    you could say
    WEEEELLLLLL
    "that means everything else to"

    but dont add to it, we are not lead to think that by only reading those few verses.

    and i do not JUSTIFY myself by tithing.
    i tithe cus he commanded me, but not because i will go to hell if i dont.
    so that aregument is ruled out.

     
  7. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    psalms 22.3

    My last post was not directed towards anything you specifically said. I want to make it clear, that I am not up against any one individual here. I was speaking as a whole, pertaining to where the tread was going.

    Your last comments about the book of Galatians chapter 5 state that the tithe was not mentioned. Well, yes it was, because if you "do" or "preach" any part of "the law", then one has fallen from grace.

    In Galatians 5:6 it is telling is that the law availeth nothing. In Galatians 3:11 it tells us -- "that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God". < This should speak volumes, right here.

    It also says in Galatians 5:6 that - "faith worketh by love", and not "the law".

    It also says in Galatians 5:14 that - "the law is fulfilled in one word - "Love". Not "tithe". The tithe was not of "Love", it was of the "Law" !

    In Galatians 5:18 it tells us - "But if ye be led of the Spirit , ye are not under the law"

    The "tithe" was "under the law" !

    If you are "lead of the Spirit", then you "Love" , not "tithe" !

    What about the woman who was caught in adultry ? Why didn't he allow those men to stone her to death ? They had a right to "do" the law , because they were still "under the law" at the time. The witnesses were there, and Jesus could have told them to go and perform the law, but he didn't, and he "did not" also in Matthew 23:23. Jesus Christ came to "fulfll" the law, not teach the law of Moses ! Did he heal on the sabbath ? Was he accused of healing on the sabbath ?

    Something for you to think about.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  8. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    you said
    Well, yes it was, because if you "do" or "preach" any part of "the law", then one has fallen from grace.
    where is that at in the bible? i know it isnt a quote.

    and really, its not me obeying the law, its me obeying jesus in matt 23.23

    i never said the law availed anything.
    im simply saying that god still wants us to tithe even though it was in the old contract as well. if he liked the old rules and wants them in the new one also, hes god.

    yes, faith works by love.
    i obey god becuase i love god, but it doesnt mean he doesnt tell me what to do. i obey his commandments such as tithe, because i love him.

    if you love god you will obey him, if you say you love him yet dont obey him, you are a liar(not speaking to you personally).
    so yes i fullfil the law through love, i obey his commandements becuase of love, and i beleive tithing is one of them.

    yes he did, and yes he was.

    ok,
    i am not saying we must obey the old laws becuase they are still in effect.
    i am saying we must tithe becuase jesus sanctioned it, even though it was in the old law.
    the old law is dead.
    but jesus gave us commandements that happened to be in the old one as well. and that doesnt mean im under the whole old one.

    the old one said DO NOT KILL, if you refuse to kill today under the N.T., are you under the old law?
    no.

    if gods new law resembles the old one in someways so what?


     
  9. bible

    bible RECESSION.[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my m

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    Taoist
    Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, He came to fulfil it. The Law is still present, it's just that we are no longer held under jdugement by it. Jesus summarised all the Law into 2 commandments - love God, and love our neighbour.
     
  10. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    yeah,
    but i think that sometimes we dont know how to do those 2 things, and we need his other commands to instruct us.
     
  11. kevinmal

    kevinmal New Member

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    i have really been in a lot of discussions about this tithe issue. but when it comes to it Jesus wants all of us and our giving should reflect that. It is a amazing how we get caught up on this subject. We really need to show love and when we show love we naturally give. If god wants you to give He will put in the right place to do so.

    God Bless each of you here


    ------------------
    Kevin
     
  12. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    psaml 22.3

    Jesus Christ said , and I quote >

    Matthew 22:37 - 40 ( which comes before Matthew 23:23)

    Verse 40 - "On these "two" commandments hang "ALL" the law and the prophets"

    Notice the word "ALL" ?

    Galatians 5:14 - "For "ALL" the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"

    Notice the word "ALL" ?

    You teach and preach the "tithe", and "do" the "tithe, then you must be a debtor to "do "all" the law" according to the "Law". > Galatians 5:3 - notice the word "whole" law ?

    Either you "do" Matthew 22:37 - 40 "OR" you can "do" Matthew 23:23 according to your understanding.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey



     
  13. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    he said curcumsision, not tithe.

    do you actually think jesus that if you love people and god that that is all you must do?
    you really think that?

    ok,
    jesus told them to go into all the world.
    he told them to GO, as in its a verb, its an action, they had something they had to do, and if they refused it would have been a sin.

    could they have said
    "well i love god, and i love those people, so i dont need to go"
    NO.

    jesus said to only love, i agree.
    but you must also read something else jesus said to understand that.
    john 14.15
    if ye love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.

    he told us to love god, and love our neighbor, and he said that was enough.
    i agree.
    then how does it make sense for god to tell us to to do other things in matthew 5?
    he gave us several explained commandements or instructions there, he didnt say to just love.

    he said to love, and he also said to do other things, one was tithe.
    you cant deny he said them.
    even FAITH, MERCY, AND JUDGEMENT, does that contradict that all we need is love?

    NO, BECAUSE IF WE LOVE GOD AND ALL OUR NEIGHBORS, WE WILL DO THOSE OTHER THINGS.

    love isnt the only commandement.
    but love does fullfill them all because
    "IF YE LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS".

    he wasnt saying all you must do is love, but that true love would inspire or stimulate the actions that would fullfill them all.

     
  14. MarkS

    MarkS New Member

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    Harvey,
    you mentioned tithing was commanded under the Law - correct.

    However tithing was not introduced by Moses.

    400+ years before the Law we know that Abraham paid tithes to the Priest of the Most High, Melchizedek; and this is found in Genesis 14:20 'And Blessed be God Most High, who delivered your enemies into your hand. Then Abram gave a tenth of everything.

    Later in Genesis 28, you find the Lord dealing with Jacob. And Jacob says in verse 20: "If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear so that I return safely to my father's house, then the Lord will by my God...and of all You give me I will give Your a tenth."

    Now take a very close look at our New Testament in Hebrews chapter 7:
    "For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

    Hbr 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

    Hbr 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

    Hbr 7:4 Now consider how great this man [was], unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

    Hbr 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

    Hbr 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

    Hbr 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

    Hbr 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he [receiveth them], of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

    Notice the "But" in verse 6to verse's 5 'commandment to receive tithes.

    Why?

    Because as stated in verse 7 the less is blessed of the Better, and 8 says "And here men that die receive tithes (This is talking of those Levites under the Law); but there he [receiveth them], of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

    The "HE" here is of course our Lord Jesus, our Faithful High Priest that now receives our tithes.

    Now Galatians is mentioned bunches of times in this thread and I love Galatians.
    Galatians does not condemn tithing however.
    It condemns circumcision. See Gal 5:2 and 3.
    And in verse 6 it states "neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is Faith expressing itself through love."

    If I am lead by the Spirit, then I am not under the Law. The Spirit has Lead me to not be a God-robber as one is called who witholds tithes & offerings in Malachi 3.

    And believe me, I am not under a yoke nor do I experience some sort of bondage, I give cheerfully and I will give more than 10% for it is for My Fathers business that I care for.



    [This message has been edited by MarkS (edited 03 January 2002).]
     
  15. john316

    john316 Member

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    I am very impressed by this thread. All of the posters here obviously know the Bible well, and I have to say that I have learned a lot. Thank you all! [​IMG]
     
  16. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    Hi MarkS:

    Well, why don't we sacrifice a "holy cow" and find out if we can start a new tradition of man ? <grin>

    After reading what you wrote, and said, I take it that you are giving your tithe to Jesus Christ , our High Priest forever ? How does he receive your tithe ? Through the mail, or do you send it via, a spiritual horse ?

    You might think that I am making fun of what you have said, but by no means am I making fun of you or what you said. My words are very serious indeed !

    With this type of thinking of yours, I am expecting you to send me your tithe at once ! The reason I am expecting your tithe to be sent to me at once. The reason being, is because if your reasoning is correct about what you believe, then according to the Law, the priests receieved that tithe. Because it also tells us in Revelation 1:6 that God has made us ( Christians ) "priest" and kings unto God.

    But I don't expect you to start sending me your tithe any time soon.

    Have you read Hebrews 7:12 ?

    7:12 - "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the Law"

    The "change" is based on "Love", as I pointed out in Galatians 5:14 and "ALL" the law is fullfilled

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  17. MarkS

    MarkS New Member

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    Hervey,
    The tithe belongs to the local church. It is where I am fed. Malachi 3:10 tells us where to bring (not send) the tithe.

    -Now your way of thinking gives an idea that Jesus came to abolish the law.

    For instance you might respond to the lines above stating, Malachi 3:10 is from the Law.


    Where you are missing it, is that you equate tithing to being under the Law.

    My friend, if you do not want to tithe that is fine, that is non of my business.

    However because I am child of Faith along with Believing Abraham, I am free. And as I mentioned Abraham paid tithes and so did Jacob.

    You made light of my reference Hebrews 7 and called it my way of thinking, no it is the Word of God.

    Am I in error for paying 10% to my local church out of my freedom, which is of the Blood covenant of Jesus Christ through Faith, and not the circumcission of my flesh, which is the Old covenant?

    If you must challenge me also is saying the House spoken of in Malachi refers to the Temple only, then have a look at 1Tim 3:15 "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth"

    If you must challenge me in saying that this "House of God" is the Body of Christ, then I would suggest you read the entire 3rd chapter of 1 Timothy, where it lays out the guidlines for church leadership, i.e. Deacons and Overseers and such. Let us not pull one verse out of context of the entire chapter.

    I do not mention these scriptures for just for argument sake, it is what I believe and therefore I act accordingly.

    Everyone has a choice to make concerning everything in their life. Concerning tithing I have made my choice based strictly on the Word of God.

    Believe me I was the biggest anti-giver/tither before I received the revelation. So I know where you stand.

    But let those who would tithe, tithe. And if you want to hold on to your 10%, fine.

    As for me and my household we will serve the Lord with our lives, money and time.

    In Him<><

     
  18. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    MarkS:

    Sounds religeous enough !

    Talk about taking things out of context !

    NO, Jesus Christ did not abolish the Law, he "fulfilled" it ! We are no longer "under" the law !

    Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

    Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

    Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

    You include the OT right along with the New. You are mixing and matching soxs .

    Mal. is the OT, and the statements made in Mal. pertain to the old covenant, which was the Law.

    The tithe "clearly", was "under" the law.

    If one tithes, then one negates what it says in II Corinthians 8:12 - 15, and II Corinthians 9:7 - "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give' not grudgingly , or of necessity : for God looveth a cheerful giver"

    It does not matter how cheerful you are in your giving of the tithe, if you do not do what it says in II Corinthians 8:12 thru 15.

    Love IN Christ - Hervey

    [This message has been edited by Hervey (edited 04 January 2002).]
     
  19. MarkS

    MarkS New Member

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    Hervey,
    I see where this is going. It was nice talking to you on this subject. I will humbly excuse myself now from your thread.
    Have a good day.

    The Just.
     
  20. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
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    MarkS:

    Where is this thread going ?

    Remember , a thread goes where you take it.

    This thread is about the Law of the tithe.

    Established in my first post !

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
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