Paidiske

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I think that's what they thought they were doing... whether they were entirely successful in all respects is another question.

I've seen some Anglo-Catholics do stuff I think is not in keeping with an Anglican ethos (as defined by the 39 Articles). I have a problem with that level of hypocrisy.

Now, I'm even-handed in my criticism. There are also significant problems with other strands of Anglicanism, and we can all learn from one another.

But I can't embrace every aspect of Anglo-Catholicism as I've encountered it.
 
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gordonhooker

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I think that's what they thought they were doing... whether they were entirely successful in all respects is another question.


I've seen some Anglo-Catholics do stuff I think is not in keeping with an Anglican ethos (as defined by the 39 Articles). I have a problem with that level of hypocrisy.

Now, I'm even-handed in my criticism. There are also significant problems with other strands of Anglicanism, and we can all learn from one another.

But I can't embrace every aspect of Anglo-Catholicism as I've encountered it.

I would not know what you have encountered, but I am comfortable with Anglo Catholicism as I have encountered it, and as a Franciscan Tertiary I embrace it readily.
 
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Albion

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The pastor at church steps into the vestment closet to put on the chausible.

Putting it on a railing would look a bit tacky. Better to not wear it at all, in that case.

Firedragon and Gordon, thanks for your comments. I didn't realize that there were so many different approaches to the matter of putting on the chasuble during the service.
 
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Offeiriad

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As far as I can tell, only wearing the chasuble for the second half of the service was an odd idea that popped up in the earlier days of modern liturgical reforms. I seem to remember that it was popularised by the now defunct (here at least!) Society of the Sacred Mission, at Kelham in Nottinghamshire, UK. Certainly when I was a teenager our Kelham-trained incumbent was prone to doing this. We're talking about the mid to late 1960's Prior to that, if the chasuble was worn at all in the C of E it was worn for the whole service. The development was presented as 'teaching ceremonial', to highlight the Eucharist as a two-part event, with Liturgy of the Word followed by Liturgy of the Sacrament. It has no ancient origin or precedent.

Apart from being distracting without conveying any really useful message, the biggest argument against the practice is that it appears to imply that the Liturgy of the Word is somehow less important, less deserving of solemnity, than the Liturgy of the Sacrament. This has always struck me personally as undermining the equality of Word and Sacrament in Anglican worship.

Hope that helps!

Chris (retired liturgy teacher!)
 
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Fish and Bread

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I've seen some Anglo-Catholics do stuff I think is not in keeping with an Anglican ethos (as defined by the 39 Articles). I have a problem with that level of hypocrisy.

Would you still categorize those practices (Eucharistic Adoration and saying the rosary being two examples you later cite) as hypocrisy by priests who are in jurisdictions where priests do not take oaths relating to believing in the 39 Articles, and where the articles are simply regarded as a historical document?

In such jurisdictions, what gives the 39 Articles any more authority than the very Catholic 4 Articles and 10 Articles, documents that would put evangelical Anglicans on the wrong side of the ledger in terms of their beliefs and practices?

Saints were almost certainly venerated in the ancient Celtic Church and in the Church in England right up until the Reformation, and there was a strong view of the real presence, transubstantiation in many cases or close to it up to that point. Then in the earliest days after the break with Rome, the Church was still very Catholic (Hence the 4 and 10 Articles). So, what gives the more evangelical Reformation era theology automatic preference over the preceding 1500 years of belief and practice in England? I think it's a worthwhile question, especially when it is ultimately book-ended by the Oxford movement in the 19th century. The Reformation was certainly not a blip, nor were the 39 Articles, but are they so definitive to the Anglican ethos that select parishes and priests who lean Catholic can't adopt Catholics beliefs and practice to some degree while remaining in communion when their provinces are not explicitly requiring adherence to the articles?

What about lay people in any jurisdiction (Who, granted, couldn't do Eucharistic Adoration without the help of a priest to consecrate the Eucharist for them, but could certainly pray the rosary)? I can say that when I was a practicing Episcopalian, and got confirmed in the church, I would absolutely not have done so had I been required to adhere to the 39 Articles. But converts and confirmands from within the church are not told that they have to. Neither are deacons, priests, and bishops upon ordination.

I think some of this flows from Roman Catholics fleeing the more conservative restrictive atmosphere of the Roman church, but remaining broadly Catholic in their beliefs and practices, just in a way similar to had the liberals or progressives really prevailed in the battle for the soul of the Roman church after Vatican II (The Episcopal Church's last Presiding Bishop [Primate] prior to the current one was a Roman Catholic convert.). Similarly, a lot of the conservative Anglicans took a hike- to continuing Anglican jurisdictions unaffiliated with Canterbury, to Eastern Orthodoxy, and to Rome (I remember where I was living 11-13 large families en mass left the local Episcopalian parish for the local Roman Catholic parish after Gene Robinson was consecrated a bishop, though this wasn't in his diocese). This creates an interesting flow in of people likely to reject the 39 Articles and flow out of people likely to want people bound to them, and hence... But a key principle of Anglicanism has since the Reformation been that national churches get to decide these things for themselves.

And it is not as though Anglo-Catholicism is something created wholly by Roman converts. The beginning of the movement wasn't, and, in a larger sense, it's worth keeping in mind that when the Roman Catholic Church was outlawed in England, a lot of people probably stuck with the Church of England not necessarily out of preference, but out of prudence. The Roman church is back operating in England, but there are people who's families for constant generations maintained Catholic practices at home while in the Church of England, and who in union with the Oxford Movement want to keep their membership in their church and their beliefs, and to be open about them and have priests who will minister to them.

I don't know. I'm trying not to debate, and I will say I actually think it would be very helpful- to me personally, even- to have a Catholic Church that has split from Rome that operates in the Spirit of Vatican II that was widespread in the Americas. But there isn't one. So people wind up Roman or Episcopalian, there is really no in between available where most Americans live (There are a few scattered random unaffiliated parishes or parishes that associate in a very small church or denomination that are something like that, but it's a big country and so these aren't geographically options for most). The Old Catholic Church in continental Europe has no official constituent church in the US.
 
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Paidiske

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I seem to remember that it was popularised by the now defunct (here at least!) Society of the Sacred Mission...

It's an aside, but they're not quite defunct here. In the last parish where I worked we had a sister of SSM.

No, F&B, I wouldn't be as cranky with people who had never bound themselves to the Articles in the first place. My charge of hypocrisy is levelled particularly at people who have, hand on Bible, made an oath before the bishop, and signed a piece of paper to that effect, and then who go out in ministry and act as if their integrity shouldn't mean something.

I'm big on integrity. If you don't mean it, don't say it.

That said... I was very uncomfortable to discover that other Anglican jurisdictions have abandoned the Articles as any sort of standard of faith. Not because I think they're the best possible standard we could have, or that they couldn't be improved, or even that they're what we'd choose to articulate today, but because I think it's important to actually have a standard to start with, and it bothers me that apparently some provinces think you don't need one...?

And it's not even the Articles to do with polemics against Rome or fairly contemporary-to-their-time issues, but also the basic ones; affirming belief in the Trinity and some basic Christology and so forth. I do actually think we need some sort of statement to which we can point saying, "We bind ourselves to this. It is definitive of our faith."
 
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gordonhooker

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And it's not even the Articles to do with polemics against Rome or fairly contemporary-to-their-time issues, but also the basic ones; affirming belief in the Trinity and some basic Christology and so forth. I do actually think we need some sort of statement to which we can point saying, "We bind ourselves to this. It is definitive of our faith."

I would have thought the "some sort of statement to which we can point" would be the commandments and creeds... I personally don't put a lot of thought into the bun fights and the stone throwing of those who fought over how to cross the 'i's and dot the 't's.

Put it this way if it wasn't for people consistently pushing back at the man made canons of the Church we would not have the blessings of our women Bishops, Priests and Deacons in the Anglican Church of Australia.

I think the history of the Anglican Church goes a lot further back then the time the 39 Articles were written.
 
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Paidiske

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But it's the articles that define how we receive the Creeds. And which commandments...?

(This is the argument I've had with my husband, who belongs to Churches of Christ, with their slogan of "no Creed but Christ." But when I ask them to define what's essential to their faith, they can't tell me).

Of course the church can change. That's kind of a foundational conviction for us. What I'm uncomfortable with is losing a sense that we actually have an agreed standard around which (however fractiously) we find ourselves.

That may be a personality quirk of mine, and I'm not saying everyone else should feel the same way, but I don't think it's intrinsically wrong for me to feel that way either.
 
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Offeiriad

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The C of E requires its ministers to 'assent' to the 39 Articles: whatever that means, it seems to fall short of conviction that they must be whole-heartedly embraced and obeyed. (An old story tells of a priest challenged on this by someone after his induction to a parish. His reply? 'I assent to the 39 Articles of Religion in the same way as I assent to the Oxford Gasworks: I acknowledge their existence, and have no plans for their destruction, but have no intention of ever going there!')

The articles (originally 42) were a statement of identity forged in a particular historical context - it is interesting that an attempt to revise and modernise them in the 1960s died unlamented. They do not form part of the Book of Common Prayer but are printed as an appendix to the 1662 English book. I don't there is a single core doctrine of the Faith that depends solely on the articles for its expression, though obviously this is open to argument from, in particular, the Conservative Evangelical school.
 
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Paidiske

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As it was taught to me, assent to the Articles means you keep your public ministry within their boundaries. You neither do nor preach anything that they would define as unacceptable.

No, it's not about whether I, deep in my most personal heart of hearts, am completely convinced of their utter truth. I'd like to argue with some of them! But I don't argue with them from the pulpit. That's not appropriate.

As an aside, F&B, you once expressed surprise when I said that I didn't consider myself a liberal within my own tradition; this is the sort of thing I meant. I may be an ordained woman, which might look terribly liberal from Rome, but I play by the rules where I am.
 
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Hungarus

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The Old Catholic Church in continental Europe has no official constituent church in the US.

The Old Catholic Union of Utrecht has no constituent church in the US. But the other serious Old Catholic communion, the Union of Scranton, has one, the Polish National Catholic Church. The PNCC, the mother church of the UoS, is a former member church of the UoU.
 
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Fish and Bread

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The Old Catholic Union of Utrecht has no constituent church in the US. But the other serious Old Catholic communion, the Union of Scranton, has one, the Polish National Catholic Church. The PNCC, the mother church of the UoS, is a former member church of the UoU.

The PNCC is regional, ethnically based, and is more conservative that the Old Catholic Church. They broke ties with that body when the Old Catholics started ordaining women. Essentially, the PNCC has it's roots in Rome appointing Irish bishops to control dioceses with mostly Polish parishes and members. The Polish folks didn't think the Irish bishops understood their tradition or were giving them a fair shake, and left. But I am not sure it's really a great alternative for people looking for a more progressive version of what Rome offers- especially if you're not Polish and don't live in the midwest. It's probably a little more progressive than the RCC, but not drastically so.
 
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gordonhooker

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As it was taught to me, assent to the Articles means you keep your public ministry within their boundaries. You neither do nor preach anything that they would define as unacceptable.

No, it's not about whether I, deep in my most personal heart of hearts, am completely convinced of their utter truth. I'd like to argue with some of them! But I don't argue with them from the pulpit. That's not appropriate.

As an aside, F&B, you once expressed surprise when I said that I didn't consider myself a liberal within my own tradition; this is the sort of thing I meant. I may be an ordained woman, which might look terribly liberal from Rome, but I play by the rules where I am.

Given this response from you earlier:

The sort of stuff I'm talking about is things like praying the rosary or adoration of the blessed sacrament.
"Fond things vainly invented" and all that.​

Have you had experience of a fellow Priest preaching about this from the pulpit?

If so, I understand where you are coming from, as a licensed Liturgical Assistant I sign a declaration that I will abide by the canons of Church in carrying out my role as a leader in the Church. That said, I would not include a prayer during the intercessions on Sunday morning "asking the Blessed Virgin to pray to us" but that doesn't mean I would be involved in saying "Angelus Prayer" during the Midday Office with my fellow Franciscan brothers and sisters at the local Anglo Catholic Parish.
 
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Paidiske

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I know of parishes in Melbourne which have Benediction with the Blessed Sacrament. Rosaries are less common although there were some "issues" around praying of rosaries in college chapel.

I wince but don't complain when you kind of get the sorts of prayers like "May the holy angels watch over us, the blessed virgin and all the saints pray for us, and the love and mercy of God surround us..." kind of thing, but I did refuse to participate in the litany that invokes them all one by one by name. (You know, "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us; Saint Gabriel and Saint Michael, pray for us; Saint John the Baptist, pray for us..." and on it goes). I didn't make a scene or anything, just went very quiet and tried to mentally tune out with alleluias or something!
 
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gordonhooker

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Personally I don't have an issue with asking one of the Saints to pray for me, I don't see that to any different then asking to put on the parish prayer list or asking my Spiritual Director to pray for me. Also as a Franciscan and a contemplative I don't see any issue with using prayer beads or prayer robes as a point of focus when in silent prayer, and if I felt so drawn I don't see an issue with using the actual Rosary prayers. In my opinion the post reformation Church in England threw the baby out with the bath water in the attempt to stop the abuses of the doctrine of purgatory and indulges forced upon the Roman Catholic Church congregation, and as such assert that yes there is a document call the 39 Articles and some within the Anglican communion treat them as a confession of faith.
 
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Paidiske

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I don't have a problem with beads or ropes or the like, in fact I quite often use an Anglican rosary, it's the invocation of the saints that I'm really uncomfortable with. Not just because of the Articles, it's something that really feels profoundly wrong to me; like taking what should be directed to God and sharing it around.

I know that, in theory, that's not what's happening, but I feel guilt when I do it, and so I don't do it!
 
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