TIME TO UNLEARN THE LIES ABOUT GOD’S WORD

[Leaf473]

I suggest that it is knee-to-the-groin obvious that the Bible presents an evolving narrative.

Not that this will deter those who are determined to freeze all its statements in time as if God is not actually doing anything in the world.

I hear what you're saying.

And I do think that sometimes people have to hear things several different ways in order for it to sink in.

 

[Leaf473]

Do it here. Start by addressing post # 107 linked that is quoting Hebrews 10:1-12 showing that the Mosaic "shadow laws" of animal sacrifices and sin offerings for remission of sins written in the book of the covenant are not shadow laws pointing to Jesus in the new covenant that are in disagreement with you that you simply ignored earlier.

What I am interested in discussing is Hebrews 10. We can discuss post 107 insofar as it overlaps with Hebrews 10.

We can see that it talks about the law having a shadow. The writer uses the singular Law to refer to the entire law.

Just like I might give Joe three instructions and say Now pay attention to the instruction you heard today.

Going with the idea that the entire law casts a shadow, every law in the entire law will form part of the shadow. So the law doesn't just cast a shadow from part of itself. I believe that may be different from what you were saying in post 107.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I hear what you're saying. And I do think that sometimes people have to hear things several different ways in order for it to sink in.

For me I believe the Word of God as shown in Isaiah 6:9-10 repeated by Jesus in Matthew 13:13-15 and Paul in Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27 that many people willfully close their eyes and ears to hearing and seeing what God's Word says which is why Jesus says that many will be called but only the few will be chosen. Let's pray none of us are in this group of people and are open to seeing and hearing what Gods' Word says even if it does not agree with out teachings. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that lead us to break the commandments of God according to the scriptures *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29; Matthew 15:3-9. We should not be afraid of coming to the scriptures to see if what we believe is true or not true as we are told in the scriptures to examine our selves to see if we are in the faith or not *2 Corinthians 13:5. Sadly however it is written that; "this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God." - John 3:19-21.

You take Care now.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What I am interested in discussing is Hebrews 10. We can discuss post 107 insofar as it overlaps with Hebrews 10.

Here you go I will re-post what you stated earlier and my response from the scriptures that are in disagreement with you to be helpful..

Leaf473 said: ↑ Good point, that Shadow laws are not a thing. There are three passages that are usually brought up when talking about shadows. One in Colossians and two in Hebrews. BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Shadow Those passages say that things like feast days and the ark are shadows, and that the law has a shadow. None of them say that the law is a shadow or that some laws are shadows imo.

Perhaps you need to look a bit more closely...

• Hebrews 10:1-5
  [1], For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, and not the very image of the things, can never WITH THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
  [2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshipers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
  [3], But IN THOSE SACRIFICES there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
  [4], For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS should take away sins.
  [5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING you would not, but a body have you prepared me.
  [6], IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN you have had no pleasure.
  [7], Then said I, SEE, I COME IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.
  [8], Above when he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERING FOR SIN YOU WOULD NOT, neither had pleasure therein; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW;
  [9], Then said he, See, I come to do your will, O God. HE TAKES AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.

TAKEN FROM THE SCRIPTURES ABOVE...

• The law having a shadow of things to come in regards to those sacrifices offered year by year - Hebrews 10:1

• The context is the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings - Hebrews 10:1-6

• These shadows laws from the volume of the BOOK (context sin offerings) are pointing to Christ - Hebrews 10:1; Hebrews 10:7

• The law being referred to is the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings - Hebrews 10:8

• These laws of animal sacrifices are taken away because they are fulfilled in Christ and a change of covenants -Hebrews 10:9

..........

The "shadow laws" of animal sacrifices written in the Mosaic book of the covenant all point to Jesus and are fulfilled in the new covenant to who they pointed to.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Leaf473]

For me I believe the Word of God as shown in Isaiah 6:9-10 repeated by Jesus in Matthew 13:13-15 and Paul in Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27 that many people willfully close their eyes and ears to hearing and seeing what God's Word says which is why Jesus says that many will be called but only the few will be chosen. Let's pray none of us are in this group of people and are open to seeing and hearing what Gods' Word says even if it does not agree with out teachings. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that lead us to break the commandments of God according to the scriptures *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29; Matthew 15:3-9. We should not be afraid of coming to the scriptures to see if what we believe is true or not true as we are told in the scriptures to examine our selves to see if we are in the faith or not *2 Corinthians 13:5. Sadly however it is written that; "this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God." - John 3:19-21.

You take Care now.

I agree 100%!

May the Lord bless you and keep you!

 

[Leaf473]

Here you go I will re-post what you stated earlier and my response from the scriptures that are in disagreement with you to be helpful..

Perhaps your the one that needs to look closely...

• Hebrews 10:1-5
  [1], For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, and not the very image of the things, can never WITH THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
  [2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshipers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
  [3], But IN THOSE SACRIFICES there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
  [4], For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS should take away sins.
  [5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING you would not, but a body have you prepared me.
  [6], IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN you have had no pleasure.
  [7], Then said I, SEE, I COME IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.
  [8], Above when he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERING FOR SIN YOU WOULD NOT, neither had pleasure therein; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW;
  [9], Then said he, See, I come to do your will, O God. HE TAKES AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.

TAKEN FROM THE SCRIPTURES ABOVE...

• The law having a shadow of things to come in regards to those sacrifices offered year by year - Hebrews 10:1

• The context is the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings - Hebrews 10:1-6

• These shadows laws from the volume of the BOOK (context sin offerings) are pointing to Christ - Hebrews 10:7

• The law being referred to is the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings - Hebrews 10:8

• These laws of animal sacrifices are taken away because they are fulfilled in Christ and a change of covenants -Hebrews 10:9

..........

The "shadow laws" of animal sacrifices written in the Mosaic book of the covenant all point to Jesus and are fulfilled in the new covenant to who they pointed to.

Hope this is helpful.

That's correct, Shadow laws are not a thing in the sense that it is not a phrase that occurs in the Bible.

Would you agree with that so far?

I'm not asking you at this point to agree that the concept of Shadow laws doesn't occur in the Bible, just that the phrase itself doesn't occur. Or if it does occur, perhaps just in certain translations?

 

[Leaf473]

Here you go I will re-post what you stated earlier and my response from the scriptures that are in disagreement with you to be helpful..

Perhaps you need to look a bit more closely...

• Hebrews 10:1-5
  [1], For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, and not the very image of the things, can never WITH THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
  [2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshipers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
  [3], But IN THOSE SACRIFICES there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
  [4], For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS should take away sins.
  [5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING you would not, but a body have you prepared me.
  [6], IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN you have had no pleasure.
  [7], Then said I, SEE, I COME IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.
  [8], Above when he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERING FOR SIN YOU WOULD NOT, neither had pleasure therein; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW;
  [9], Then said he, See, I come to do your will, O God. HE TAKES AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.

TAKEN FROM THE SCRIPTURES ABOVE...

• The law having a shadow of things to come in regards to those sacrifices offered year by year - Hebrews 10:1

• The context is the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings - Hebrews 10:1-6

• These shadows laws from the volume of the BOOK (context sin offerings) are pointing to Christ - Hebrews 10:1; Hebrews 10:7

• The law being referred to is the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings - Hebrews 10:8

• These laws of animal sacrifices are taken away because they are fulfilled in Christ and a change of covenants -Hebrews 10:9

..........

The "shadow laws" of animal sacrifices written in the Mosaic book of the covenant all point to Jesus and are fulfilled in the new covenant to who they pointed to.

Hope this is helpful.

What translation are you quoting from, there?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That's correct, Shadow laws are not a thing in the sense that it is not a phrase that occurs in the Bible.

Would you agree with that so far?

I'm not asking you at this point to agree that the concept of Shadow laws doesn't occur in the Bible, just that the phrase itself doesn't occur. Or if it does occur, perhaps just in certain translations?

All I see in this post is that you are seeking to explain away what is plainly written in the scriptures as shown in post # 144 above and earlier while not addressing anything from the linked post and scriptures provided that are in disagreement with you.

.............

Hebrews 10:1 (KJV) [1], For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW (σκιά G4639) OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, and not the very image of the things, can never WITH THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Note: The Greek word used in context to the laws for remission of sins being "shadow laws" pointing to Christ and fulfilled in Christ is G4639 is σκιά (skiá) and means "shade" or "a shadow". Therefore the laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifice from the Mosaic book of the law were all "shadow laws" pointing to Christ who they are all now fulfilled in under the new covenant. The old covenant laws for remission of sins where the shadows pointing to the body of Christ. - No more old covenant laws for remission of sin through animal sacrifices and sin offerings that all pointed to Jesus as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all (see Hebrews 10:10 see contexts of Hebrews 9:1-27 and also, John 1:29; 26).

Take Care.

 

[Leaf473]

All I see in this post is that you are seeking to explain away what is plainly written in the scriptures as shown in post # 144 above and earlier while not addressing anything from the linked post and scriptures provided that are in disagreement with you.

.............

Hebrews 10:1 (KJV) [1], For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW (σκιά G4639) OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, and not the very image of the things, can never WITH THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Note: The Greek word used in context to the laws for remission of sins being "shadow laws" pointing to Christ and fulfilled in Christ is G4639 is σκιά (skiá) and means "shade" or "a shadow". Therefore the laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifice from the Mosaic book of the law were all "shadow laws" pointing to Christ who they are all now fulfilled in under the new covenant. The old covenant laws for remission of sins where the shadows pointing to the body of Christ. - No more old covenant laws for remission of sin through animal sacrifices and sin offerings that all pointed to Jesus as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all (see Hebrews 10:10 see contexts of Hebrews 9:1-27 and also, John 1:29; 26).

Take Care.

Good. KJV, then.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: "shadow laws"

The search returns zero results.

Can we agree that the term Shadow laws is not found in the scriptures?

 

[expos4ever]

Sorry dear friend I do not believe you as shown......I hope only the best for you and that you will take some time to revisit some of the posts and scriptures that have been shared with you only in love and as a help to you.

On what specific grounds do you justify taking what, on the surface at least, is a general concept - "lawlessness" - and narrowing its scope of reference down to the 10 commandments. Am I not lawless when I speed? Am I not lawless when I park in a handicapped spot?

No evasion please - just answer the question. You are using the fact that I have not answered all your muddy, meandering, and repetitive posts as an "out" to evade a number of very simple, clear questions that I have posed.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Good. KJV, then.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: "shadow laws"

The search returns zero results.

Can we agree that the term Shadow laws is not found in the scriptures?

Why make strawman arguments no one is arguing about? Why would you do a search on the word order of "shadow laws" for Hebrews 10:1 and expect to find anything when the scripture word order says....

Hebrews 10:1 (KJV) [1], For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW (σκιά G4639) OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, and not the very image of the things, can never WITH THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Genuine question as I do not understand your thinking here.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

On what specific grounds do you justify taking what, on the surface at least, is a general concept - "lawlessness" - and narrowing its scope of reference down to the 10 commandments. Am I not lawless when I speed? Am I not lawless when I park in a handicapped spot?
TIME TO UNLEARN THE LIES ABOUT GOD’S WORD
No evasion please - just answer the question. You are using the fact that I have not answered all your muddy, meandering, and repetitive posts as an "out" to evade a number of very simple, clear questions that I have posed.

Already answered here linked. Your making arguments here no one is arguing about.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Thank you for posting, I will unlearn everything you said.

as it is written, may God be true and every man a liar. Since you are but a man, your interpretation is also false.

It is just a rehash of what our friend has being saying all along. I think that his posts should have been put in the blogs section, because that is what it is. There is plenty of eisegesis in his interpretation of Scripture but quite thin on exegesis. This thread is not a discussion thread. It should have been labelled as a teaching thread, with the central premise that the only way to be true to God's Word is to accept and practice the Jewish Sabbath. What he is actually saying between the lines is that if one does not observe the Jewish Sabbath, he is not actually converted to Christ, because the only true converts to Christ are those who observe the Sabbath.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It is just a rehash of what our friend has being saying all along. I think that his posts should have been put in the blogs section, because that is what it is. There is plenty of eisegesis in his interpretation of Scripture but quite thin on exegesis. This thread is not a discussion thread. It should have been labelled as a teaching thread, with the central premise that the only way to be true to God's Word is to accept and practice the Jewish Sabbath. What he is actually saying between the lines is that if one does not observe the Jewish Sabbath, he is not actually converted to Christ, because the only true converts to Christ are those who observe the Sabbath.

All the posts and scriptures provided here in this thread are God's Word taken out of the scriptures (exegesis) while those who deny Gods' Word need to read in or explain away what is in the scriptures (eisegesis) which is what your doing here. There was no Jew or Israel or Moses or Mosaic laws according to the scriptures when Jesus made the Sabbath for all mankind *see Mark 2:27-28 and Genesis 2:1-3. There was only Adam and Eve. Therefore there is no such thing as a Jewish Sabbath. I suggest you read the OP. It is not saying what you are saying and neither is it teaching what you are teaching. Only God's Word therefore is true *Romans 3:4 and we should believe *John 3:36 and follow them *Acts of the Apostles 5:29 and you have not provided any accept for your words that disagree with God's Word. So lets agree to disagree. I hope only the best for you.

You take Care now.

 

[SkyWriting]

There is no scripture anywhere in the bible that says that God's 4th commandment has not been changed into Jesus.

If you mean written law, then that is discussed.

KJV
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
AKJV
forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
LEB
revealing that you are a letter of Christ, delivered by us, inscribed not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on stone tablets but on tablets of human hearts.
TLB
They can see that you are a letter from Christ, written by us. It is not a letter written with pen and ink, but by the Spirit of the living God; not one carved on stone, but in human hearts.

 

[SkyWriting]

Then we have Gods' Word that disagrees with your words...

• Hebrews 10:1-5
  [1], For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, and not the very image of the things, can never WITH THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
  [2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshipers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
  [3], But IN THOSE SACRIFICES there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
  [4], For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS should take away sins.
  [5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING you would not, but a body have you prepared me.
  [6], IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN you have had no pleasure.
  [7], Then said I, SEE, I COME IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.
  [8], Above when he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERING FOR SIN YOU WOULD NOT, neither had pleasure therein; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW;
  [9], Then said he, See, I come to do your will, O God. HE TAKES AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.

What you believe is between you and God. I prefer the scriptures because only God's Word us true and we should believe and follow them *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

Take Care now.

The law
has a shadow.

But "Shadow Laws" were not recognised as a category by Jews, Christians, Ancient or this week either.
It's phrase/idea/concept you have invented and is found in no textbooks or teachings. But I'm beginning to think "Secular Law" is the correct phrase and one that has some intellectual traction. I appreciate you bringing your thought experiments out in the open. It's a brave effort.

 

[SkyWriting]

Then we have Gods' Word that says...

Hebrews 10:1-12

[1], For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME,​

"Shadow Laws" - not an established theological concept​

 

[LoveGodsWord]

"Shadow Laws" - not an established theological concept​

Actually it is a biblical concept as shown from the post and scriptures you are part quoting from that state the old covenant laws for remission of sins of animal sacrifices and sin offerings were all shadow laws pointing to the coming Christ and Jesus as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all *Hebrews 10:1-12. (see post # 144 linked).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

If you mean written law, then that is discussed.

KJV
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
AKJV
forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
LEB
revealing that you are a letter of Christ, delivered by us, inscribed not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on stone tablets but on tablets of human hearts.
TLB
They can see that you are a letter from Christ, written by us. It is not a letter written with pen and ink, but by the Spirit of the living God; not one carved on stone, but in human hearts.

None of which says Jesus is a Sabbath.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The law
has a shadow.

But "Shadow Laws" were not recognised as a category by Jews, Christians, Ancient or this week either.
It's phrase/idea/concept you have invented and is found in no textbooks or teachings. But I'm beginning to think "Secular Law" is the correct phrase and one that has some intellectual traction. I appreciate you bringing your thought experiments out in the open.

I am not really into commentaries and man-made theologies but perhaps you need to do some more reading (linked). I personally prefer the bible and just posted you scriptures from Hebrews 10:1-12 (see post # 144 linked) so we might have to agree to disagree on your claims and teachings here which I do not believe are truthful or biblical.