Time to end this.

[David Brider]

Let me cut you short as your discussion is now even further removed from my original point. My point did not say ‘gender’ My point was gay means having a same-sex attraction.

Same-gender attraction, same-sex attraction, it's the same thing.

When people say they are gay they therefore make a statement about their sexual attraction.

This is true.

It’s a sexual label as opposed to those who say they are Christian.

I wouldn't have said it's a sexual label. Male and female and transgender are sexual labels, IMO. Gay, or straight, or bi, or homosexual, or heterosexual, are labels about sexual orientation.

And why is a label about either our gender or our sexual orientation "opposed to those who say they are Christian"?

That someone says they are Christian according to the definition that means they believe and follow Jesus Christ, it makes no reference to their sex or their sexual orientation.

You're right, it doesn't. If I'm understanding you aright, you seem to be saying that it's wrong to for Christians to use any words to describe their sex or their sexual orientation. Is that about right? 'Cos if it is...well, if that's what you believe, then that's fair enough, but I don't share that belief. I'm a Christian, yes. That's one fact about me, but it doesn't describe everything I am - I'm also male, for example, and I'm also bisexual. None of those three facts describe everything about me, but they go some way towards describing who I am.

When someone says they are gay according to the definition that means they have a sexual attraction. You denied gay conveys anything about sex, it does.

No, what I said - and you quoted - was that "a gay person can tell you they're gay without discussing their sex lives." This is perfectly true, because to be gay, or homosexual, means to be inclined to be attracted to people of the same gender as oneself. It doesn't say anything about whether a particular gay person has any kind of sex life. Like I said, I'm bisexual. But I'm not sexually active at the moment (as my fiancee and I are not engaging in sexual activity until our wedding night, and when I do become sexually active, it will be with a woman (i.e. my fiancee). But the fact that I'm not sexually active with men doesn't make me a heterosexual, any more than a gay person not being sexually active doesn't make him or her not gay.

David.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear David Brider,

I wouldn't have said it's a sexual label.

How could it not be as gay means sexual attraction, it has even got sex in the word.

A gay person can tell you they're gay without discussing their sex lives.

Not quite, that they are gay already tells us they have same-sex attraction, and that they are sexually attracted which is a statement about their sex lives, whether active or not it tells us which sex they are going to be active with if they act on their attraction.

Male and female and transgender are sexual labels, IMO. Gay, or straight, or bi, or homosexual, or heterosexual, are labels about sexual orientation.

sexual orientation is a sexual label. Male and female and transgender are also sexual labels, Christian isnt, it says nothing about someone’s sex or sexual attraction.

You're right, it doesn't.

Correct and that someone says they are gay according to the definition that means they have as sexual attraction.

If I'm understanding you aright, you seem to be saying that it's wrong to for Christians to use any words to describe their sex or their sexual orientation. Is that about right?

No It isn’t that isn’t what I am saying here.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Dear David Brider,
How could it not be as gay means sexual attraction, it has even got sex in the word.
Not quite, that they are gay already tells us they have same-sex attraction, and that they are sexually attracted which is a statement about their sex lives, whether active or not it tells us which sex they are going to be active with if they act on their attraction.

In the same way heteroSEXuals are only interested in sex….see it even has the word sex in the name. HeteroSEXuals could not possibly feel love or make family ties….after all their only concern is sex

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear BigBadwlf,

In the same way heteroSEXuals are only interested in sex….see it even has the word sex in the name. HeteroSEXuals could not possibly feel love or make family ties….after all their only concern is sex

Not my point. heterosexual tells us something sexual about a person, which ws my point.

 

[David Brider]

sexual orientation is a sexual label. Male and female and transgender are also sexual labels...

Surely you can see, though, that "male" and "homosexual" tell you two completely different things about a person. Your decision to lump them both into a category called "sexual" doesn't really help matters.

David.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear David Brider,

Surely you can see, though, that "male" and "homosexual" tell you two completely different things about a person. Your decision to lump them both into a category called "sexual" doesn't really help matters.

It doesnt help matters for your argument, but the fact is they both convey a sexual chararteristic about the person which is the basic fact you seem unwilling to accept.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Dear David Brider,
It doesnt help matters for your argument, but the fact is they both convey a sexual chararteristic about the person which is the basic fact you seem unwilling to accept.

Yet it invoves much more than sex even though you are trying to force that limited defintion onto a minority

 

[CriticalMassKitten]

Not quite, that they are gay already tells us they have same-sex attraction, and that they are sexually attracted which is a statement about their sex lives, whether active or not it tells us which sex they are going to be active with if they act on their attraction.

I think in same sex attraction, the word sex is meant to be a noun, as in

1.either the male or female division of a species, esp. as differentiated with reference to the reproductive functions.

Which would make the phrase actually mean someone who is attracted to the same sex, which makes more sense, actually. Saying it means someone who is sexually attracted to the same sex doesn't make quite as much sense, as you are saying they are sexually attracted to members of the same sex, yet you only mention either sex or gender, not both, in the phrase. I have no idea if that made sense, but basically I'm saying you're putting words into the phrase that aren't actually there. Saying it means one who is attracted to the same sex does make sense, however, as you are saying they are attracted to members of the same sex.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear BigBAdWlf,

Yet it invoves much more than sex even though you are trying to force that limited defintion onto a minority

When you say yet it involves much more, you must believe it is so then, that they both convey a sexual chararteristic about the person which is sexual, I thought you were saying otherwise.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear CriticalMassKitten,

I think in same sex attraction, the word sex is meant to be a noun, as in

It still says sex and means sex, so you agree it conveys a sexual characteristic?

I'm saying you're putting words into the phrase that aren't actually there. Saying it means one who is attracted to the same sex does make sense, however, as you are saying they are attracted to members of the same sex.

Either way it says something sexual about the person which was my point.. several posters haven’t acknowledged that yet and I am unsure whether they agree with this reality.

 

[David Brider]

Dear David Brider,
It doesnt help matters for your argument, but the fact is they both convey a sexual chararteristic about the person which is the basic fact you seem unwilling to accept.

"Male" and "female" both tell you about the physical gender of the person in question. There's nothing sexual about that.

"Homosexual" and "heterosexual" and "bisexual" tell you about the physical gender that the person in question is likely to be attracted. There is something sexual about that (although, as CriticalMassKitten has pointed out, the "-sexual" part of the words have reference to sex in the sense of gender, not to sex in the sense of the physical sex act), but in my experience, attraction between two people of whatever gender covers a great many facets, not all of which are merely sexual in nature.

The fact that you want to reduce it to just the sexual facets says, IMO, a great deal about your preoccupations.

David.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear David Brider,

Male" and "female" both tell you about the physical gender of the person in question. There's nothing sexual about that.

On the contrary male and female denotes the sex.
see http://www.thefreedictionary.com
adj.
1.
a. Of, relating to, or designating the sex that has organs to produce spermatozoa for fertilizing ova.
b. Characteristic of or appropriate to this sex; masculine.
c. Consisting of members of this sex.
2. Virile; manly.
3. Botany
a. Relating to or designating organs, such as anthers or antheridia, that produce gametes capable of fertilizing those produced by female organs.
b. Bearing stamens but not pistils; staminate: male flowers.
4. Designating an object, such as an electric plug, configured for insertion into a recessed part or socket.
n.
1. A member of the sex that begets young by fertilizing ova.
2. A man or boy.
3. Botany A plant having only staminate flowers.

And gender
gen·der (jndr)
n.
1. Grammar
a. A grammatical category used in the classification of nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and, in some languages, verbs that may be arbitrary or based on characteristics such as sex or animacy and that determines agreement with or selection of modifiers, referents, or grammatical forms.
b. One category of such a set.
c. The classification of a word or grammatical form in such a category.
d. The distinguishing form or forms used.
2. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.
3.
a. The condition of being female or male; sex.
b. Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender.
tr.v. gen·dered, gen·der·ing, gen·ders
To engender.

"Homosexual" and "heterosexual" and "bisexual" tell you about the physical gender that the person in question is likely to be attracted.

No they tell us about the sex,
homosexual
adj.
Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.
n. Usage Problem
A homosexual person; a gay man or a lesbian.
Usage Note: Many people now avoid using homosexual because of the emphasis this term places on sexuality. Indeed, the words gay and lesbian, which stress cultural and social matters over sex, are frequently better choices. Homosexual is most objectionable when used as a noun; here gay man and gay woman or lesbian and their plural forms are called for. It is generally unobjectionable when used adjectivally, as in a homosexual relationship, although gay, lesbian, or same-sex are also available for adjectival use. See Usage Note at gay.

No wonder we cant communicate on this, we have two different language meanings.

The fact that you want to reduce it to just the sexual facets says, IMO, a great deal about your preoccupations.

But I make sense according to the dictionary, your argument doesn’t

 

[David Brider]

On the contrary male and female denotes the sex.

And for the purposes of this discussion, "sex" and "gender" are being used to mean the same thing.

Look:

gen·der (jndr)
n.
3. a. The condition of being female or male; sex.
b. Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender.

So why do you object so much to me using "gender" in this sense?

David.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear David Brider,

And for the purposes of this discussion, "sex" and "gender" are being used to mean the same thing.

Ok so gay and homosexual denote a sexual characteristic, which was my point, so someone saying they were gay denotes something about their sexuality.

 

[David Brider]

Dear David Brider,

Ok so gay and homosexual denote a sexual characteristic, which was my point, so someone saying they were gay denotes something about their sexuality.

Yes, but the initial disagreement that sparked off this little linguistic detour (AFAICT) was your assertion that someone telling you they're gay tells you something about their sex life. Which it doesn't, at least not necessarily (because it doesn't even tell you if they have a sex life).

David.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear David Brider,

Ok so gay and homosexual denote a sexual characteristic, which was my point, so someone saying they were gay denotes something about their sexuality.

Yes, but the initial disagreement that sparked off this little linguistic detour (AFAICT) was your assertion that someone telling you they're gay tells you something about their sex life. Which it doesn't, at least not necessarily (because it doesn't even tell you if they have a sex life).

Well this was your post #98.

It does tell me something about their sex life, it tells me their desires are for the same sex/gender so if that’s something about their sex life. If say I am male it doesn’t tell anyone anything about my sex life, if I say I am a Christian it does tell people something about what my sex life should be, celibate or in a faithful marriage, if someone tells me they are gay it tells me their sexual desires are towards people of the same sex/gender... it is an identity in a sexual matter.

 

[CriticalMassKitten]

Dear CriticalMassKitten,
It still says sex and means sex, so you agree it conveys a sexual characteristic?

Either way it says something sexual about the person which was my point.. several posters haven’t acknowledged that yet and I am unsure whether they agree with this reality.

You mean they haven't acknowledged it like you didn't acknowledge what I said? I used the dictionary and picked apart the word to make my statement, and you replied by saying "yeah but it also means this" without stating any reasoning what-so-ever.

Anyway, I'd like to know what you learn that is sexual about a person when they say they are homosexual. Just being attracted to members of the same sex does not count. Also, engaging in same-sex sex also doesn't count, as 1: you can't assume they have ever engaged in that and 2: knowing that you are heterosexual doesn't make anybody assume what kind of sex you have.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear criticalmasskitten,
I acknowledge what you say and I think it is wrong as it still says sex and means sex, so you agree it conveys a sexual characteristic? Either way it says something sexual about the person which was my point..

Anyway, I'd like to know what you learn that is sexual about a person when they say they are homosexual. Just being attracted to members of the same sex does not count.

Yes it does that’s the whole point, it tells me the peson ois sexually attracted to another person of the same sex.

 

[David Brider]

It does tell me something about their sex life, it tells me their desires are for the same sex/gender so if that’s something about their sex life.

I think it would be fair to say that most people would see "sex life" as referring to sexual activity. Sexual orientation isn't a sexual activity, it's just a tendency to attraction.

If say I am male it doesn’t tell anyone anything about my sex life, if I say I am a Christian it does tell people something about what my sex life should be, celibate or in a faithful marriage...

It tells us what your sex life should be, but not what it is.

...if someone tells me they are gay it tells me their sexual desires are towards people of the same sex/gender...

But it doesn't tell you anything about what their sex life is - whether they're sexually active, and if so whether they're married (either to someone of the same or the opposite gender) or in a stable monogamous relationship, or looking for "Mr/Miss Right" and occasionally having sexual relations, or being wildly promiscuous, or anything in between those extremes.

Sexual orientation =/= sex life.

I find your use of the phrase "sexual desires" rather interesting, by the way. What do you mean by it? 'Cos you seem to mean something rather stronger by it than "sexual orientation" would convey.

David.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear David Brider,

I think it would be fair to say that most people would see "sex life" as referring to sexual activity. Sexual orientation isn't a sexual activity, it's just a tendency to attraction.

No, sexual orientation is a sexual attraction, so it does tell me something about their sex life, it tells me their desires are for the same sex/gender so if that’s something about their sex life.

It tells us what your sex life should be, but not what it is.

But that’s my point, what the sex life should be is something about the sex life.

But it doesn't tell you anything about what their sex life is –

yes it does, it tells me their sex life is going to be same-sex.

I find your use of the phrase "sexual desires" rather interesting, by the way. What do you mean by it? 'Cos you seem to mean something rather stronger by it than "sexual orientation" would convey.

The issue is not desires or oreinattion, but sexual desires and sexual orientation. Its the 'sexual' that tells us something sexual.