Time to end this.

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I'm not suggesting it is, but it's certainly a facet of who we are. Your CF profile lists your interests as pool and cards, your occupation as "Aviation stuff", and that you're married. Those are not defining factors of who you are, but they're facets of who you are, and presumably in discussion with a newcomer to your church or someone else you're meeting for the first time, they'd be things which you'd bring into the conversation to describe your life and your interests. For some people, sexual orientation would figure highly in that - I suspect more so for non-heterosexual people, since it means that they're somewhere off the hetero-normative baseline, and for various reasons it may be relevant in starting a new friendship. But it's largely up to the individual, and the nature of the friendship.

David.

Thanks.

That being said, perhaps its just out of respect that I don't divulge information that I know will lead to controversy. I'm not going to walk into church (baptist) and say "Hi, I spend 3 to 5 nights a week inside a bar, oh and I don't believe in the rapture." Even if I were telling the truth to get people to know me better, that was just not the proper time and place for that type of discussion. I'm obviously using a church meeting as pretext here. If I were to do this, however, I can imagine that the next sermon is going to be drunkard/rapture related. If I were gay, and I go to a church that I know is against same-sex sex, then for me to go in there and announce my sexuality is like begging for an intervention.

The church I attend (not enough, ofc) I don't completely agree with. A lot of their traditional rules and whatnots I am not in line with. However I'm not there for that, and I'm not there to change them. I'm there to learn, and strengthen my walk with God.

I hope you can understand my point, I was having a hard time explaining it lol.

 

[OllieFranz]

Jet-

You make it sound like the only reason you would learn from his conversation that a friend is gay is that he would bring subject up to stir controversy. You can tell me things about yourself in the course of conversation without bringing up the subject at all. For example, if you tell me that Marie is visiting her mother in another state, and you are missing real home-cooked meals, you are telling me that you and Marie have a relationship wherein, among other things, she cooks meals for you. Even though nothing was said about relationships.

And even when the subject is homosexuality and controversey is stirred up, at least half the time it is a heterosexual who brought the subject up. Unless you are saying that gays should never publically voice any opinions, then you can't claim that you don't understand why they are telling these things

 

[Apollo Celestio]

If a gay couple were to invite a "weaker brother" (struggling with his gayness and convinced that same-sex affection is sin) over to their house and proceeded to engage in sex in front of him, then yes, it would be the same as Paul's example of eating "tainted" meat in front of a "weaker brother." Are you claiming that that is what is happening?

Talking about "eating meat" and letting it be known that you "eat meat" when there are no "weaker bretheren" around to be a stumbling block are not forbidden, or Paul would have been sinning in writing the relevant passages. (And many of the people you are trying to condemn don't even do that.)

Most of the gay Christians I know do not speak of their sex lives at all. It is only in the sick imagination of rabid homophobes that saying "I'm gay" is the same thing as saying "I am planning on having wild monkey sex in the town square with every man I see, and I'm going to force you to watch."

I meant that they're both sin.

 

[BreadAlone]

Tell me, would you consider being heterosexual - in the sense of being inclined to be attracted to people of the opposite gender to yourself - to be a temptation as well?

If the attraction was sexual in nature (as in to have sex) then yes.

Why not, though? Do you define someone's sexuality purely in terms of sexual activity? Most people I know would define sexuality in terms of sexual attraction. In the usage with which I'm familiar, someone is homosexual if they're attracted to people of the same gender as themselves, regardless of whether or not they are involved in a sexually active relationship.

I guess it's just my own personal preferance. Like I said earlier, do we call someone who thinks about lying a liar if they don't lie? No, so why would we do it any differently for homosexuals?

Would you say that someone only becomes a heterosexual when they start being sexually active with people of the opposite gender to themselves? If so, how does that work? What would you say they are before they start being sexually active - asexual?

No I wouldn't call them asexual..how about a virgin?

Okay, what I would say is someone is dealing with homosexual temptations, versus natural heterosexual ones. That's about the best way I can think of to say it.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Dear BigBadWlf,


The answer is no. You said they do so give me examples. I think you will find your examples are wrong.

You want examples even though you just implied you won’t look at them honestly?

 

[BigBadWlf]

I think an interesting question is raised at that statement. Why did they tell me they are gay? As Christians, sexual orientation should not be a defining factor in who we are. I'd find it as odd as someone coming to me and telling me that they are heterosexual. What is the motive behind 'coming out' to someone, so to speak? Are they afraid I may say something offensive if I did not know they were gay? If that's the case, then I'm an offensive person with whom they shouldn't be friends with anyway.

Yet people broadcast their heterosexuality all the time for all to see
Wedding rings
Wedding pictures
Marriage announcements in newspapers
Anniversary announcements in newspapers
Modern Bride magazine
Holding hands in public
Do you find these announcements strange or wonder what their motivation is?

What role exactly does sexuality, any sexuality, play in church?

why do you announce your sexual orientation here?

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Jet-

You make it sound like the only reason you would learn from his conversation that a friend is gay is that he would bring subject up to stir controversy. You can tell me things about yourself in the course of conversation without bringing up the subject at all. For example, if you tell me that Marie is visiting her mother in another state, and you are missing real home-cooked meals, you are telling me that you and Marie have a relationship wherein, among other things, she cooks meals for you. Even though nothing was said about relationships.

I get what you are saying. I don't assume people are romantically involved just because they are close to one another. I could tell you that I'm having dinner at Bob's house, or I'm going to the movies with Bob,or I'm going to the beach with Bob. Would you in any way question my sexuality?

I was speaking of coming out, as in making an announcement of your sexuality. All it does is start controversy, if you know that your church is against what you are proclaiming. It's no different than if a member announced to everyone that he was involved in and enjoying an extramarital affair. It's just asking to stir the pot.

And even when the subject is homosexuality and controversey is stirred up, at least half the time it is a heterosexual who brought the subject up.

Sure they do, but is it proper Christian context to do so? Aren't our issues between us and God? Shouldn't they stay that way?

Unless you are saying that gays should never publically voice any opinions, then you can't claim that you don't understand why they are telling these things

Iexplained it earlier in this post, its not a matter of who can voice what opinions, everyone has the right to speak. Its about what role sexuality plays in church. It shouldn't, yet it seems to often be the highlight of these issues.

Truly it seems like what the GLBT group is fighting for is to have churches change their doctrine. If that group believes that same-sex is not forbidden by the bible, more power to them, they have that right. But to go into a church that they know is opposite of their beliefs and make a 'coming out' is no different than me walking into a catholic church and telling them that their dogma about Mary is a total farce.

Do I want those people to know about what I believe is truth? Sure, but out of respect for them I am not going to do anything to disrupt or stir up their service.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Yet people broadcast their heterosexuality all the time for all to see
Wedding rings
Wedding pictures
Marriage announcements in newspapers
Anniversary announcements in newspapers
Modern Bride magazine
Holding hands in public
Do you find these announcements strange or wonder what their motivation is?

I feel like you are trying to redirect my question. I'm not even talking about the assumptions made of someone based on their appearance. I'm not talking about a gay man who happens to sit close to another man,or whatever. I'm talking about someone 'coming out', as in making a statement to a person or group about their sexuality.

why do you announce your sexual orientation here?

How do I? Because I state that I'm married? What makes you think I'm married to a woman? What if my wife is really a man? You are now making assumptions. I'm not even talking about people assuming things, I'm talking about someone coming into a church and making the statement " I am a practicing homosexual " in the context that it is correct with God to do so, and doing this full well knowing that their church has a different belief.

 

[David Brider]

Dear David Brider,
Thanks for your response.

Well I did say I tended to agree with you but the difficulty with the dictionary definitions it would seem is that it doesn’t suit the homosexuals.

As I said - some of them emphasise sexual activity over and above orientation. That's not wrong because "it doesn't suit the homosexuals" - it's wrong because it's wrong, because homosexuality, like heterosexuality and bisexuality, is not chiefly defined by sexual activity but by attraction.

I think it is important the definition is understood if the definition is used.

I agree, and part of the problem is that some Christians use the word "homosexuality" when they're actually referring to homosexual activity.

Ok but how do you know that poster is motivated by hatred rather than love?

As I think I said, I don't know for absolutely 100% certain. But all things being considered, reading these statements and others by the same posters, and the tone in which they're written, they certainly seem to be motivated more by hatred than by love.

They may just be misinformed.

Possibly, although when that possibility is pointed out to them, they don't display any degree of grace in response; instead they come across as...well, rather arrogant, IMO.

That’s true though isnt it if one believes the Biblical testimony as well as the testimonies of those who affirm what God can do. See 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and Romans 8:5, “Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.”, also Romans 13:14

But how do you know that the people are living according to the sinful nature? They have this sexual orientation that they're told is wrong, so they pray to God asking for Him to change it. If their sexual orientation is indeed wrong, then asking God to change it seems to be exactly submitting to God's will, rather than living according to the sinful nature, and yet they experience no change.

Again how do you know the motive is hate? An identity in sex, whether heterosexual or homosexual is an identity in the flesh not the Spirit. My view would also be that if someone identifies themselves in their sexual orientation as well as in Christ, they haven’t yet really found their identity in Christ...

I'm not talking about "identifying themselves in their sexual orientation" - just about being homosexual or heterosexual or whatever. It's just a label, a description of who one is likely to be attracted to. For some it might go deeper than that, but for most, it's just a part of their identity, and not one, whether homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual or whatever, that is contradictory to finding one's identity in Christ.

David.

 

[David Brider]

Dear David Brider,

Well possibly hatred, but then that would apply to many other truths of Jesus Christ’s teaching. Jesus said repent or die...

Erm...no, he didn't.

Well yes it is disbelief because If I am happy with the translations I am happy with what the translations say.

Sure - you believe the translations are accurate. That's fine. I don't deny you your right to believe that. But just because other people think the translations aren't accurate, that's not the same as disbelief. I do wish you could get over this.

Sorry but no. Does ‘loves ones neighbour’ mean love ones neighbour’?

Even if "love one's neighbour" is an accurate translation of the Greek, that still doesn't entirely help us to understand what it means. Jesus helps somewhat by unpacking the meaning of "neighbour" elsewhere, but even so there's still a bit of a cultural barrier to overcome because in western contemporary usage "neighbour" tends to mean "someone who lives in the house next door to me," rather than Jesus' somewhat different and wider application of the word. Then there's the question of what, from a practical point of view, it looks like to "love" someone. The church of which I'm a member says that to love someone means to want the best for them, but what would that look like in practical reality?

And to further complicate matters - for someone who, for whatever reason, finds it difficult to love themselves, who maybe has feelings of intense self-loathing of self-hatred, what would it look like to "love one's neighbour as oneself"?

Y'see, there's the surface level of what the text says (or at least, what a particular translation of the text says) and there's the deeper level of what it actually means, particularly what it means for us in practical day to day reality.

No I cant, the NIV translation says homosexual offenders, how can I make the text say something else? If I take the NKJV it says homosexuals and Sodomites.
What you mean is you don’t believe the translation...

No, what I mean is that I'm not convinced that the translations are accurate renditions of the Greek arsenokoites into contemporary English idiom. Again, you may disagree with that, that's entirely your choice, but for (what I hope is) the last time, stop accusing others of "disbelief" simply because they don't agree with your belief.

How do we do that then? Surely if we don’t believe the translation we are letting our assumptions get in the way.

You're not really getting this, are you? Take a word like arsenokoites. There's all sorts of possible translations of the word that have been used over the past couple of millennia - sodomites, homosexuals, homosexual offenders, masturbators, promiscuous men, to name just five. None of those words mean exactly the same thing. It's not "letting our assumptions get in the way" to say that it would be useful to ascertain exactly what the correct meaning is, at least as far as we can determine it.

It is "letting our assumptions get in the way" to just take as read that the best translation is "homosexual" just because that's the translation in the Bible we use, despite our awareness of the complexities in translating that particular word, and to then accuse others of "disbelief" because they come to different conclusions about the translation of the word.

What do you think disbelief is?

From a Christian perspective, I'd say disbelief is outright denial of God, and of Jesus Christ as the way to salvation.

It's certainly not open and honest discussion about the translation and meaning of words in our Bibles.

So you are prepared to accept that what the Bible says about homosexual offenders could be true?

I'm prepared to accept that that's one possible translation of arsenokoites that's been offered up over the years.

Are you prepared to accept that it's not the only possible translation? And that Christians can legitimately disagree over what the correct translation might be without the accusation of "disbelief" being hurled at them?

Ok do you need to repent of same-sex unions?

Nope.

Well again that’s your own view and not according to Jesus Christ NT teaching which says flee sexual immorality and don’t associate with those who live by it

Sure - and I agree entirely that we should flee from sexual immorality. I don't entirely agree with you about what constitutes sexual immorality, but I agree that we should flee from it. Which is why I'm determined to have no part in it myself.

But is your fiancee of the opposite sex...

The clue is in the spelling.

David.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Yet people broadcast their heterosexuality all the time for all to see
Wedding rings
Wedding pictures
Marriage announcements in newspapers
Anniversary announcements in newspapers
Modern Bride magazine
Holding hands in public
Do you find these announcements strange or wonder what their motivation is?





why do you announce your sexual orientation here?

Our Lord speaks well of marriage, I think people can "flaunt" (To a degree) something that is blessed by the Lord.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear David Brider,

A gay person can tell you they're gay without discussing their sex lives.

Which was rather the point of OllieFranz's post.

I think the answer to this question that keeps going round in circles is no they cant as gay means having a same-sex attraction. When they say they are gay they therefore make a statement about their sexual attraction.

I'm not suggesting it is,

I am sorry to say they aren’t merely suggesting it they are stating it. I also feel this is simply denial of reality.

because homosexuality, like heterosexuality and bisexuality, is not chiefly defined by sexual activity but by attraction.

Unbelievable! Sorry but homosexual and gay means sexual attraction. Again you seem in denial of reality.
I am attracted to fellow Christians by sharing the same faith, but I sometimes haven’t a clue what sexuality they have, but I can see which sex they are.

I agree, and part of the problem is that some Christians use the word "homosexuality" when they're actually referring to homosexual activity.

Who? Maybe but not me or others here who refer to homosexuality as primarily being same-sex attraction.

As I think I said, I don't know for absolutely 100% certain. But all things being considered, reading these statements and others by the same posters, and the tone in which they're written, they certainly seem to be motivated more by hatred than by love.

Yet they claim the opposite so why do you make judgements about their motives just based on your guesswork?

Possibly, although when that possibility is pointed out to them, they don't display any degree of grace in response; instead they come across as...well, rather arrogant, IMO.

Ok so would it not be better to accuse them of arrogance rather than hatred?

But how do you know that the people are living according to the sinful nature?

I don’t and I didn’t say I did, you said that with your question. Your question is not my point. My point is that the Biblical testimony tells us people can live according to Spirit and not the desires of the sinful nature.

They have this sexual orientation that they're told is wrong, so they pray to God asking for Him to change it. If their sexual orientation is indeed wrong, then asking God to change it seems to be exactly submitting to God's will, rather than living according to the sinful nature, and yet they experience no change.

No that’s not what the Bible texts say, The Bible texts say that if one has their heart and mind renewed and set on following Christ by being lead by the Holy Spirit they wont need to pray to God to change their sexual orientation, their sexual orientation wont be acted on or be the focus of their attention, following Christ will.

I'm not talking about "identifying themselves in their sexual orientation"

I think you are, as soon as one says ‘gay Christians’ one identifies themselves as a Christian with same-sex attraction. Sadly many of those who do so also live out and promote same-sex activity.

 

[David Brider]

Dear David Brider,
I think the answer to this question that keeps going round in circles is no they cant as gay means having a same-sex attraction. When they say they are gay they therefore make a statement about their sexual attraction.

Making a statement about what gender of people we're sexually attracted to isn't the same thing as making a statement about our sex lives, though. I can tell you that I'm bisexual, for example, but that doesn't tell you anything about my sex life, or indeed whether I have one.

Unbelievable! Sorry but homosexual and gay means sexual attraction.

Which is what I said:

...because homosexuality, like heterosexuality and bisexuality, is not chiefly defined by sexual activity but by attraction.

...so I'm not really sure what your problem is here?

I agree, and part of the problem is that some Christians use the word "homosexuality" when they're actually referring to homosexual activity.

Who?

Well, for starters, anyone who states that Leviticus 18:22 is referring to homosexuality.

As I think I said, I don't know for absolutely 100% certain. But all things being considered, reading these statements and others by the same posters, and the tone in which they're written, they certainly seem to be motivated more by hatred than by love.

Yet they claim the opposite so why do you make judgements about their motives just based on your guesswork?

"By their fruit shall ye know them". Seriously, if someone writes what comes across as the product of hatred and then caveats that by stating that actually they don't hate the people they're writing to/about, really, honestly, not at all...what do you think is more likely - that they're writing from a position of hatred and then making excuses, or that they're writing from a position of love and are extremely bad at expressing it?

Ok so would it not be better to accuse them of arrogance rather than hatred?

It doesn't have to be either/or.

No that’s not what the Bible texts say, The Bible texts say that if one has their heart and mind renewed and set on following Christ by being lead by the Holy Spirit they wont need to pray to God to change their sexual orientation, their sexual orientation wont be acted on or be the focus of their attention, following Christ will.

Okay, that's your position. Other people, though, think that homosexual men and women should seek a change in their orientation, and it's these people who've made the assertion that if they pray and experience no change in orientation, that the homosexual men and women haven't been fully submitted to God, and (getting back to the topic) one of the people who expresses this does so in a manner which suggests hatred, or at least a deep and abiding lack of compassion, for people who find themselves in this situation.

I think you are, as soon as one says ‘gay Christians’ one identifies themselves as a Christian with same-sex attraction.

But the phrase you used was "identifying themselves in their sexual orientation", which seems to be about something more than identifying as gay, straight, bi or whatever. If some describes themselves as "a gay Christian", all they're saying is that being a Christian is a part of who they are, and being gay is also a part of who they are. You seem to be wanting to read way more into it than there really is.

David.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Okay, that's your position. Other people, though, think that homosexual men and women should seek a change in their orientation, and it's these people who've made the assertion that if they pray and experience no change in orientation, that the homosexual men and women haven't been fully submitted to God, and (getting back to the topic) one of the people who expresses this does so in a manner which suggests hatred, or at least a deep and abiding lack of compassion, for people who find themselves in this situation.

This is what I got from his statement. If someone is fully submitted to God, then their focus is on Him, and their sexuality becomes irrelevant.

But the phrase you used was "identifying themselves in their sexual orientation", which seems to be about something more than identifying as gay, straight, bi or whatever. If some describes themselves as "a gay Christian", all they're saying is that being a Christian is a part of who they are, and being gay is also a part of who they are. You seem to be wanting to read way more into it than there really is.

Same deal here. Being a Christian is more than just part of what we are, its ALL that we are. This is our strive, anyhow.

He's speaking in the sense that there is no sexuality in Christ, there is no differentiation between sexual orientations. Identifying your religious belief alongside your sexual orientation shows the importance someone places on the worldly, which is like the flesh, dying.

A Christian is a Christian is a Christian, thats all there is to it.

God bless

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear David Brider,

Erm...no, he didn't.

Eer yes I think He did.
Luke 13:3 “I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.” That was to people they though were innocent.

Sure - you believe the translations are accurate. That's fine. I don't deny you your right to believe that. But just because other people think the translations aren't accurate, that's not the same as disbelief. I do wish you could get over this.

Ok well the challenge to the translations is coming to the condemnations about same-sex sex by those who don’t agree with it. Gay and lesbian theologians are not seeking to re-translate whole swathes of the Bible, they are seeking to change what they don’t like. That is why it represents one of the biggest attacks on the Bible and Christianity in its history.
What the translations I have cited say is what all the major churches ministries and denominations agree with. My view is that pro-same sex Christians stick to their pro-same-sex theology and churches like the MCC where they can have their own gay Christianity. For one am perfectly happy to recognise such a church for its beliefs, that is fine, we must all ultimately answer to Jesus for our position. But alas that doesn’t seem to be the motive of the gay and lesbian Christians, who in my view join forces with the world and non-believing gay and lesbian groups to force a change to the historic apostolic Christian faith churches.

Even if "love one's neighbour" is an accurate translation of the Greek, that still doesn't entirely help us to understand what it means.

No I was asking you, you are the one who said one can’t necessarily trust the translation. How can you trust the other translations that tell you what this one means?

No, what I mean is that I'm not convinced that the translations are accurate renditions of the Greek arsenokoites into contemporary English idiom.

Ok what you mean is you don’t believe the translation as I said. But the Septuagint tells you against the Hebrew what arsen koites means and the passage is about what a man shall not do, not sleep with his father wife, neighbours daughter etc and with a male as with a female. That’s homosexual practice.
The challenge is baseless as its use in 1 Tim 1:10 is even refer to the law. Its bound to be correct as God’s purpose is man and woman Gen 2 Matt 19, and men with men is error Rom 1.
You are prepared to look and trust other texts elsewhere to affirm what ‘love ones neighbour’ means but you are not prepared to trust other texts elsewhere to affirm what 1 Cor 6:9 means.

 

[Phinehas2]

David Brider,

Making a statement about what gender

Let me stop you there. I am not prepared to just argue according to your agenda. I will address what you specifically say if you address what I specifically say. My question to you which you quoted was not ‘statement about what gender’ but statement about their sexual attraction. Their gender could mean their physical sex, please re –address the question according to sexual attraction.

...so I'm not really sure what your problem is here?

No problem. The biblical condemnations are chiefly of same-sex activity, but some keep referring to homosexuality instead of same-sex activity.

Well, for starters, anyone who states that Leviticus

18:22 is referring to homosexuality.

Ah but same-sex activity is to do with homosexuality, not heterosexuality. Yet when others refer to Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 dealing with same-sex activity, you keep referring to homosexual and homosexuality, so it must be what you mean.

"By their fruit shall ye know them".

that’s my point, know them by their fruit not your guesswork fruit.

It doesn't have to be either/or.

Its isnt either/or, you have made both accusations.

Okay, that's your position.

Nope that’s what the Bible says
Romans 8:5 “Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.”
Romans 13:14 “Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.”
Is your position not the Biblical one on this either?
The heart set according to the Spirit is set on Jesus Christ and His teaching. Yours seems set on questioning His teaching according to sexual desires.

But the phrase you used was "identifying themselves in their sexual orientation",

Sexual orientation is sexual attraction.

which seems to be about something more than identifying as gay, straight, bi or whatever.

gay is chiefly same-sex attraction. As soon as one identifies themselves as gay they have identified themselves sexually. You denied this.

If some describes themselves as "a gay Christian", all they're saying is that being a Christian is a part of who they are, and being gay is also a part of who they are. You seem to be wanting to read way more into it than there really is.

Yes totally and completely wrong thinking and contradiction. Identifying themselves as gay identifies themselves sexually, but identity in Christ is neither male sex nor female sex.

 

[David Brider]

David Brider,
Let me stop you there. I am not prepared to just argue according to your agenda. I will address what you specifically say if you address what I specifically say. My question to you which you quoted was not ‘statement about what gender’ but statement about their sexual attraction.

Erm...what on earth are you talking about? Perhaps if you didn't insist on cutting my sentence off after the first six words you'd see that I was engaging directly with what you'd written:

I think the answer to this question that keeps going round in circles is no they cant as gay means having a same-sex attraction. When they say they are gay they therefore make a statement about their sexual attraction.

Making a statement about what gender of people we're sexually attracted to isn't the same thing as making a statement about our sex lives, though. I can tell you that I'm bisexual, for example, but that doesn't tell you anything about my sex life, or indeed whether I have one.

Try responding to all of it instead of just the first six words...

David.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear David Brider,

Erm...what on earth are you talking about? Perhaps if you didn't insist on cutting my sentence off after the first six words you'd see that I was engaging directly with what you'd written

No you weren’t that is why I cut you off. The sex of a person is male or female, the word gender has also become to mean male or female. My point was specifically not about the sex or the gender, but about the sexual attraction/orientation a person can have whatever their gender. Hence I needed to cut you off from avoiding my question by changing it.

Try responding to all of it instead of just the first six words...

I am not prepared to just argue according to your agenda. I will address what you specifically say if you address what I specifically say. My question to you which you quoted was not ‘statement about what gender’ but statement about their sexual attraction.

 

[David Brider]

Dear David Brider,

No you weren’t that is why I cut you off. The sex of a person is male or female, the word gender has also become to mean male or female. My point was specifically not about the sex or the gender, but about the sexual attraction/orientation a person can have whatever their gender. Hence I needed to cut you off from avoiding my question by changing it.

I'm sorry, I'm really not following your line of thought here at all.

Yes, sexual orientation/attraction is separate from what gender a person is, but it tells you what gender a person is attracted to. For example, if a male tells you that he's homosexual, that tells you what gender of people he's attracted to (i.e., he's attracted to males). If a female tells you that she's heterosexual, that tells you what gender of people she's attracted to (i.e., she's attracted to males).

I'm not clear how this is "avoiding your question by changing it".

I am not prepared to just argue according to your agenda.

I'm curious here - what do you think my agenda is?

I will address what you specifically say if you address what I specifically say. My question to you which you quoted was not ‘statement about what gender’ but statement about their sexual attraction.

You're doing it again, though - cutting the first bit of the sentence off from the rest to make it say something pretty much meaningless. Sexual orientation is not a "statement about what gender," it's a "statement about what gender of people someone is attracted to". In other words, it's directly about someone's attraction, and therefore directly related to what you were posting about!

David.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear David Brider,

I'm sorry, I'm really not following your line of thought here at all.

Yes, sexual orientation/attraction is separate from what gender a person is,

Let me cut you short as your discussion is now even further removed from my original point. My point did not say ‘gender’ My point was
gay means having a same-sex attraction. When people say they are gay they therefore make a statement about their sexual attraction. It’s a sexual label as opposed to those who say they are Christian. That someone says they are Christian according to the definition that means they believe and follow Jesus Christ, it makes no reference to their sex or their sexual orientation. When someone says they are gay according to the definition that means they have a sexual attraction. You denied gay conveys anything about sex, it does.
You wrote

A gay person can tell you they're gay without discussing their sex lives.

Yes but that wasn’t my point, my point was as soon as someone says they are gay they have identified themselves sexually. Someone who says they are a man tells everyone about their sex, its male.