Time to end this.

[Phinehas2]

Dear tulc,

Are you saying that people are objecting to the things that are being posted not because some people post in a rude or hateful manner but because the Biblical texts are so

I am saying what I said I am saying, as to whether the post is written in the right spirit, yes definatley as it isnt he spirit that people are objecting to, it’s the Biblical texts.

 

[Chaplain David]

I think the biggest problem is when fundamentalists start to unlovingly vocalize their opinions foremost to the general public. There's a difference between honestly trying to motivate a sinning self-proclaimed "Christian," and just condemning homosexuality, well, for the sake of condemning homosexuality.

God will judge the sinfulness of this world; he charges us to live the Great Commission in love, while preserving the integrety of his Church. If we stuck to that as Christians, the world would be a MUCH better place.

An old friend of mine once said that love is not delivered with an axe. If scripture or Christianity is delivered unlovingly then it is not as Christ would have us do. The irony here is that delivering the gospel in an unloving, know-it-all, or condescending fashion is really carnal. It's quite a terrible contradiction. God bless.

 

[catlover]

Dear tulc,
I am saying what I said I am saying, as to whether the post is written in the right spirit, yes definatley as it isnt he spirit that people are objecting to, it’s the Biblical texts.

Than what you are saying is, people can write Biblical texts to prove their point in an unloving manner and people are objecting to the text not the hate and biggotry?

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear catlover,
I dont really see any hate and bigotry towards people, the objections are to the Biblical texts.
For someone who believes in Jesus Christ's Biblical testimony, that apart from Jesus we as adulterers or homosexual offenders are destined to eternal death, is not a problem, on the contrary it is of great joy to know what we are saved from, but to someone who doesnt believe in Jesus they may find it very objectionable to be told they are destined for eternal death. So in this way it can be difficult to prove a point in a loving manner.

 

[David Brider]

Dear catlover,
I dont really see any hate and bigotry towards people.

Then you're not very observant.

...the objections are to the Biblical texts.

Only if they're wrenched out of context and used to justify hatred and bigotry.

For someone who believes in Jesus Christ's Biblical testimony, that apart from Jesus we as adulterers or homosexual offenders are destined to eternal death, is not a problem, on the contrary it is of great joy to know what we are saved from, but to someone who doesnt believe in Jesus they may find it very objectionable to be told they are destined for eternal death. So in this way it can be difficult to prove a point in a loving manner.

Given that most of the people round here are Christians who believe in Jesus Christ's Biblical testimony, I'd love to know why you feel the need to emphasise the whole "destined for eternal death" thing?

David.

 

[tulc]

I am saying what I said I am saying, as to whether the post is written in the right spirit, yes definatley as it isnt he spirit that people are objecting to, it’s the Biblical texts.

uhmmmm I think I get what you're saying the problem is you're both right and wrong at the same time. There are some people (on both sides of the issue) who can be pretty hateful, or take offense at anything said. But there are some who have honest disagreements with how others present the "good news" or how people interpret Scripture. My objection to what you say is more you seem to be using too broad of a brush, that they don't like the Scriptures people are using, and that simply isn't true in all cases. See my point?
tulc(sorry it took so ling to get back to you, I kept disappearing and reappearing in the past)

 

[catlover]

Dear catlover,
I dont really see any hate and bigotry towards people, the objections are to the Biblical texts.
For someone who believes in Jesus Christ's Biblical testimony, that apart from Jesus we as adulterers or homosexual offenders are destined to eternal death, is not a problem, on the contrary it is of great joy to know what we are saved from, but to someone who doesnt believe in Jesus they may find it very objectionable to be told they are destined for eternal death. So in this way it can be difficult to prove a point in a loving manner.

No the objections are towards the hate and bigotry...unless you believe Jesus instructed Christians to behave in a hate filled bigoted manner towards people.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear David Brider,

Then you're not very observant.

Ok of you are so observant please show me, I will not be surprised if there are instances I am quite prepared to be corrected, but please show me some phrases which indicate this.

Only if they're wrenched out of context and used to justify hatred and bigotry.

No Biblical texts are out of context in themselves, and it is the actual Biblical texts that cause the trouble.
Of the texts given I see denying what the Biblical texts say as justifying disbelief and an indication of hatred against God’s word,

Given that most of the people round here are Christians who believe in Jesus Christ's Biblical testimony,

how come? When I was referring to those of us who believe Jesus Christ’s Biblical testimony as in 1 Corinthians 6:9 NIV “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” I would say many round here don’t believe in Jesus Christ’s Biblical testimony.

I'd love to know why you feel the need to emphasise the whole "destined for eternal death" thing?

Well I didn’t, as a believer you can see I emphasised not the destined but the ‘saved from’ eternal death bit.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Dear catlover,
I dont really see any hate and bigotry towards people, the objections are to the Biblical texts.
For someone who believes in Jesus Christ's Biblical testimony, that apart from Jesus we as adulterers or homosexual offenders are destined to eternal death, is not a problem, on the contrary it is of great joy to know what we are saved from, but to someone who doesnt believe in Jesus they may find it very objectionable to be told they are destined for eternal death. So in this way it can be difficult to prove a point in a loving manner.

Well Ishida refused to actually answer the questions of this post. Maybe you will be honest enough to do so

Christian groups routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is this not an act of hate?

Ex-gay ministries routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is this not an act of hate?

How is advocating discrimination against an entire minority not an act of hate?

How is comparing gays and lesbians to pedophiles, murders, thieves, liars not an act of hate?

How is denying that hundreds of thousands of gays and lesbian were not murdered in Nazi death camps not an act of hate?
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=45384407&postcount=8

 

[BreadAlone]

I have a few answers if you don't mind..

Christian groups routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is this not an act of hate?

Ex-gay ministries routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is this not an act of hate?

Lying is not a very Christian thing at all, is it? Leviticus 19:11-12: " 'Do not lie.' 'Do not deceive one another. 'Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.' "

Of course there's a difference between lying and being ignorant/misinformed, but slandering someone falsely is in the very least hurtful, indeed.

How is advocating discrimination against an entire minority not an act of hate?

Discrimination is not right. James 2: 1-4: "My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?"

In the very least, discrimination is not God-pleasing. However, there's of course differences between discrimination and say, oh, excommunication (in it's proper form) for example.

How is denying that hundreds of thousands of gays and lesbian were not murdered in Nazi death camps not an act of hate?

Murder is a horrible crime. It cuts people's time of grace short. Exodus 20:31: "You shall not murder."

How is comparing gays and lesbians to pedophiles, murders, thieves, liars not an act of hate?

1 Corinthians: 9-11: "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

It is not only not an act of hate to compare these things, but it is an act of love. Homosexuality disobeys and belittles God's holy, precious, and perfect will. But praise be to our Lord the Christ!! He has overcome all sin and death, even homosexuality, and has justified all in the eyes of God!! And all Christendom now has the precious Holy Spirit working faith and sanctification in their hearts!! Our God is an awesome God!!

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Christian groups routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is this not an act of hate? Where?

Ex-gay ministries routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is this not an act of hate? How?

How is advocating discrimination against an entire minority not an act of hate? I say you take your case up with God.

How is comparing gays and lesbians to pedophiles, murders, thieves, liars not an act of hate? Because it's all sin, it's not hate. Those thieves, murderers, liars are people Jesus died for as well as the gay and lesbian and even the asexual. >_>

How is denying that hundreds of thousands of gays and lesbian were not murdered in Nazi death camps not an act of hate? Who denied this? How is it hate? It's certainly something, but hate?

This "hate" exists, I won't deny it. But stop hypocritically judging people here when they're doing the opposite. That is the point of the entire topic.

 

[tulc]

How is comparing gays and lesbians to pedophiles, murders, thieves, liars not an act of hate? Because it's all sin, it's not hate. Those thieves, murderers, liars are people Jesus died for as well as the gay and lesbian and even the asexual.

Really? Then why not compare it to things less visceral? Say "Being gay is as bad as over eating!" or "Being gay is as bad as judging your brother!"? You want to know why people don't say it like that? Because it doesn't sound as nasty. People in the Church make excuses for people who over eat or people who judge others, but like it or not most people see a hierarchy of sin, and in that hierarchy being gay is seen as the same as being a pedophile, not someone who judges others. See the difference?
tulc(one of those things you learn on your way to trying to be a compassionate Christian)

 

[BigBadWlf]

I have a few answers if you don't mind..

you didn't answer any of my questions

Lying is not a very Christian thing at all, is it? Leviticus 19:11-12: " 'Do not lie.' 'Do not deceive one another. 'Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.' "

Of course there's a difference between lying and being ignorant/misinformed, but slandering someone falsely is in the very least hurtful, indeed.

Are you claiming that every time Focus on the family makes a false statement about homosexuals they are just “misinformed”?

Are you claiming that when Paul Cameron of the Family research council self publishes fraudulent research and ever time he misrepresents the legitimate research of actual scientists he is just make a teeny tiny little boo boo?

When Concerned women of America present false witness about such topics as the lifespan of gays and lesbians, domestic violence, disease rates, and so on that it is somehow not their fault that they lied because they shouldn’t have to be bothered to actually look up what the researchers they are lying about actually said?

When some random Christian group lies about Maria Xiridou and her study on AIDS we should just chalk up the lie to “ignorance”?

When James Dobson tries to make claims about gay men’s life expectancy and lies about it and cites Dr. Robert Hogg we should just accept the lie aas truth even though Dr. Hogg has asked Dobson and other Christians to stop lying about his research and stop misrepresenting him?




I will not pretend that blatant lies about homosexuals and homosexuality are just friendly little goofs.

Now back to my question. Christian groups routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is that not an act of hatred?

Discrimination is not right.
In the very least, discrimination is not God-pleasing. However, there's of course differences between discrimination and say, oh, excommunication (in it's proper form) for example.

So why do Christians support discrimination?
And how is advocating discrimination against an entire minority not an act of hate?

Murder is a horrible crime. It cuts people's time of grace short. Exodus 20:31: "You shall not murder."

You ignored the question (again) How is denying that hundreds of thousands of gay men were not murdered in nazi death camps not an act of hate?

It is not only not an act of hate to compare these things, but it is an act of love. Homosexuality disobeys and belittles God's holy, precious, and perfect will. But praise be to our Lord the Christ!! He has overcome all sin and death, even homosexuality, and has justified all in the eyes of God!! And all Christendom now has the precious Holy Spirit working faith and sanctification in their hearts!! Our God is an awesome God!!

So you personally have no problems being compared to a pedophile? Such a comparison is according to you an act of love. If someone were to compare your father to a pedophile would you smile and thank that person for the complement?

 

[BreadAlone]

you didn't answer any of my questions




Are you claiming that every time Focus on the family makes a false statement about homosexuals they are just “misinformed”?

Are you claiming that when Paul Cameron of the Family research council self publishes fraudulent research and ever time he misrepresents the legitimate research of actual scientists he is just make a teeny tiny little boo boo?

When Concerned women of America present false witness about such topics as the lifespan of gays and lesbians, domestic violence, disease rates, and so on that it is somehow not their fault that they lied because they shouldn’t have to be bothered to actually look up what the researchers they are lying about actually said?

When some random Christian group lies about Maria Xiridou and her study on AIDS we should just chalk up the lie to “ignorance”?

When James Dobson tries to make claims about gay men’s life expectancy and lies about it and cites Dr. Robert Hogg we should just accept the lie aas truth even though Dr. Hogg has asked Dobson and other Christians to stop lying about his research and stop misrepresenting him?




I will not pretend that blatant lies about homosexuals and homosexuality are just friendly little goofs.

Now back to my question. Christian groups routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is that not an act of hatred?

So why do Christians support discrimination?
And how is advocating discrimination against an entire minority not an act of hate?






You ignored the question (again) How is denying that hundreds of thousands of gay men were not murdered in nazi death camps not an act of hate?




So you personally have no problems being compared to a pedophile? Such a comparison is according to you an act of love. If someone were to compare your father to a pedophile would you smile and thank that person for the complement?

Sorry my answers weren't up to par with what you were searching for.

As to the last bit, it wouldn't offend me as my father is a god-fearing man and not a homosexual..so it wouldn't be applicable..

 

[BigBadWlf]

Christian groups routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is this not an act of hate? Where?

On the web
In books
In Xeroxed pamphlets
It doesn’t matter where the lie takes palce.

Christian groups routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality, how is this not an act of hate?

Ex-gay ministries routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is this not an act of hate? How?

That’s my question. How is this not an act of hate?

How is advocating discrimination against an entire minority not an act of hate? I say you take your case up with God.

Well according to BreadAlone God does not approve of discrimination (see his post)

But you continue to ignore my question: How is advocating discrimination against an entire minority not an act of hate?

How is comparing gays and lesbians to pedophiles, murders, thieves, liars not an act of hate? Because it's all sin, it's not hate. Those thieves, murderers, liars are people Jesus died for as well as the gay and lesbian and even the asexual. >_>

So you personally have no problems being compared to a pedophile? Such a comparison is according to you an act of love. If someone were to compare your father to a pedophile would you smile and thank that person for the complement?

How is denying that hundreds of thousands of gays and lesbian were not murdered in Nazi death camps not an act of hate? Who denied this?

Plenty of Christians doing it.
Paul Cameron and Judith Reisman are just a couple of famous examples
There is an entire thread about the denial of the holocaust going on in Ethics and Morality
http://christianforums.com/t7077450-the-homosexual-holocaust-another-gay-militant-myth.html

How is it hate? It's certainly something, but hate?

Well you are the one trying to claim that the horrors of the holocaust and the modern trend of more than a few Chistains to deny it is not an act of hate…why don’t you tell us all what it is

This "hate" exists, I won't deny it. But stop hypocritically judging people here when they're doing the opposite. That is the point of the entire topic.

obviously many Christians are not doing the opposite

 

[BigBadWlf]

Sorry my answers weren't up to par with what you were searching for.

Maybe you could actually answer the questions

As to the last bit, it wouldn't offend me as my father is a god-fearing man and not a homosexual..so it wouldn't be applicable..

An interesting statement considering child molesters are almost exclusively heterosexuals. I suppose I should keep my children away form your father and people like him (remember you are claiming that such a statement is a complement and an act of love)

 

[BreadAlone]

Maybe you could actually answer the questions

I tried and did, but you didn't like the answers. (And in all but one point I was AGREEING with what you assert! )

An interesting statement considering child molesters are almost exclusively heterosexuals. I suppose I should keep my children away form your father and people like him (remember you are claiming that such a statement is a complement and an act of love)

Well, no, since he's not a child-molester and that's a slanderous lie.

 

[BigBadWlf]

[/font][/color]

I tried and did, but you didn't like the answers. (And in all but one point I was AGREEING with what you assert! )



Well, no, since he's not a child-molester and that's a slanderous lie.

But you just claimed such a comparison was “an act of love”. http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=45565954&postcount=50

So how in the world could such a loving act (your words) be a slanderous lie?

 

[BreadAlone]

But you just claimed such a comparison was “an act of love”. http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=45565954&postcount=50

So how in the world could such a loving act (your words) be a slanderous lie?

Stating a homosexual is a sinner is different than saying someone who is not a pedophile is.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Stating a homosexual is a sinner is different than saying someone who is not a pedophile is.

Well now you seem to be saying that such a comparison is somehow not an act of love at all.

Worse you seem to be offended. You specifically said you would not be
“It wouldn’t offend me” http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=45572779&postcount=54

Why are you offended?