Time to end this.

[savedandhappy1]

Boy I hope they fix the problem with how the post come out soon.

I am having trouble figuring out what order the post are supposed to be in. On an other thread they list my last post as being on March 25, and I have posted atleast 4 post to that thread today.

Anyhow if I miss a post meant for me, sorry, and I just may wait till they fix the problem before trying to post anymore responses.

 

[savedandhappy1]

Boy I hope they fix the problem with how the post come out soon.

I am having trouble figuring out what order the post are supposed to be in. On an other thread they list my last post as being on March 25, and I have posted atleast 4 post to that thread today.

Anyhow if I miss a post meant for me, sorry, and I just may wait till they fix the problem before trying to post anymore responses.

 

[David Brider]

Boy I hope they fix the problem with how the post come out soon.

I am having trouble figuring out what order the post are supposed to be in.

I think it's to add to the fun. It's like a little jigsaw puzzle, trying to sort everything into the right order.

David.

 

[Polycarp1]

It has its virtues -- it's like we begin with the classic hijack, and then move to the topic!

But here's my observation: Phinehas and I both are opposed to sexual sin, and I suspect every other participant in this thread is, too. And while there are a few homophobes on CF (based on post contents, which is all we have to go on), generally what you have is people with varying degrees of self-righteousness denouncing what they see as the sins of others.

And that's true whether you're talking about "Bible-believing Christians" (BBC) holding forth that "the Bible clearly condemns all gay sex as sin" or we of the pro-gay faction denouncing the judgmentalism of the first group.

The bottom line here to me is that we're all sinners saved by the grace of God mediated through the Atonement of Jesus Christ -- and, as such, free from the law, not to do sin, but to love.

I am steadfastly against the following homosexual sins, based on my reading of Scripture:

• anal gang rape (Genesis 19 and Judges 19:22ff)
• sodomitic fertility rites to Moloch and other Ba'alite deities (esp. Astarte) (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13)
• turning to orgiastic practices, along with malicious attitudes, in an ennui-laden search for new kicks (Romans 1:21-32)
• the selling and patronizing of enslaved 'rent boy' prostitutes (I Corinthians 6:9)

I'm also opposed to the sin of Sodom, as defined more specifically than Genesis does in Ezekiel 16:49-50.

I suspect that every GLBT member of CF, and their supporters and defenders, will largely agree with that stance.

The difference between us and the BBCs is (1) what we read Scripture to say, and (2) the absence of the attitude that the Bible is God's Lawbook, to be obeyed, like wearing seat belts, not because it's a good idea, but because it's the Law.

Paul would denounce the "Bible-believers" vehemently -- he grew up in a culture which demanded he comply with every jot and tittle of the Law for salvation, and he celebrated his new birth of freedom in Christ

But beyond that, the sin of which we're all guilty is that of judging our fellow men. And I'm as guilty of that as is anyone "on the other side". But I call on us all to rethink our positions, because whatever the truth may be, the one thing that is absolutely clear from Scripture is that He Who came and died to save us and Who will return to be our Judge is dead set against any one of us arrogating to ourselves the right to judge the sins of others.That's His job.

 

[BigBadWlf]

The reason most of us "fundies" do not support homosexuality is not because we hate you and enjoy your suffering, it is because God labeled it a sin(or so we believe) in the bible, simple as that. So please end this foolishness that anyone hates anyone, please. It's annoying, and it edifies nobody.

Please enlighten me as to just how this claim would be received any differently if a racist were to saying what you have said.

Should we accept a racist saying that the reason most people labeled racist do not support civil rights and racial equality in not because they hate anyone of enjoy any form of suffering or oppression, it is simply because God labeled such things a sin in the bible?

 

[BigBadWlf]

The reason most of us "fundies" do not support homosexuality is not because we hate you and enjoy your suffering, it is because God labeled it a sin(or so we believe) in the bible, simple as that. So please end this foolishness that anyone hates anyone, please. It's annoying, and it edifies nobody.

Christian groups routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is this not an act of hate?

Ex-gay ministries routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is this not an act of hate?

How is advocating discrimination against an entire minority not an act of hate?

How is comparing gays and lesbians to pedophiles, murders, thieves, liars not an act of hate?

How is denying that hundreds of thousands of gays and lesbian were not murdered in Nazi death camps not an act of hate?

Can you tell me?

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Christian groups routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is this not an act of hate?

Ex-gay ministries routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is this not an act of hate?

How is advocating discrimination against an entire minority not an act of hate?

How is comparing gays and lesbians to pedophiles, murders, thieves, liars not an act of hate?

How is denying that hundreds of thousands of gays and lesbian were not murdered in Nazi death camps not an act of hate?

Can you tell me?

Name the names of members and give evidence where they displayed hate. As I suspected, this was futile. Keep living in your delusions, sure people who hate homosexuals exist, but it's quite rare here.


Christian groups routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is this not an act of hate?
I don't think you know what hate means, and how do you know this, it is not proven that one's sexual orientation (or lack thereof) is inborn.

Ex-gay ministries routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is this not an act of hate? Ex-gay ministries normally aren't condemning and hating gays, they're trying to help them "change", how is that hate? Though the lying isn't what I'd call love, if you're correct.

How is advocating discrimination against an entire minority not an act of hate? Where is this advocated? Someone not supporting gay marriage? You're right, it is, but it's not always an act of hate, think of legalizing adult-child marriages, would that be hate? Remember, it's not to make you or any homosexual suffer, but biblical condemnation. I myself don't support homosexual marriages, but I won't protest, as the world isn't to be held to Christian standards if they refuse to accept Christ.

How is comparing gays and lesbians to pedophiles, murders, thieves, liars not an act of hate? (You have no right to talk about this, given I made this thread because of posts like yours, read your own posts, you're being hypocritical.)

How is denying that hundreds of thousands of gays and lesbian were not murdered in Nazi death camps not an act of hate? (A lot more than gays and lesbians were murdered there, were they murdered in the name of our Lord? Did Phinehas2 order the execution, did Zaac flip the switch, did I point and laugh while they writhed to death in agony? Really.. Did you even read the OP, this is addressing members that post here.

Can you tell me? ...

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Please enlighten me as to just how this claim would be received any differently if a racist were to saying what you have said.

Should we accept a racist saying that the reason most people labeled racist do not support civil rights and racial equality in not because they hate anyone of enjoy any form of suffering or oppression, it is simply because God labeled such things a sin in the bible?

Where does the bible condone racism? Ugh, your heart is set in stone, there is no convincing you. Maybe I should really start acting hateful...

 

[BigBadWlf]

Where does the bible condone racism? Ugh, your heart is set in stone, there is no convincing you. Maybe I should really start acting hateful...

Not what I asked.

please answer the question

 

[BreadAlone]

Not what I asked.

please answer the question

It's a dumb question and quite irrelevant, and really no reason for him to answer it, as the will of God could not be sinful. It's unfathomable.

 

[BreadAlone]

I think the biggest problem is when fundamentalists start to unlovingly vocalize their opinions foremost to the general public. There's a difference between honestly trying to motivate a sinning self-proclaimed "Christian," and just condemning homosexuality, well, for the sake of condemning homosexuality.

God will judge the sinfulness of this world; he charges us to live the Great Commission in love, while preserving the integrety of his Church. If we stuck to that as Christians, the world would be a MUCH better place.

 

[BreadAlone]

I think the biggest problem is when fundamentalists start to unlovingly vocalize their opinions foremost to the general public. There's a difference between honestly trying to motivate a sinning self-proclaimed "Christian," and just condemning homosexuality, well, for the sake of condemning homosexuality.

God will judge the sinfulness of this world; he charges us to live the Great Commission in love, while preserving the integrety of his Church. If we stuck to that as Christians, the world would be a MUCH better place.

 

[catlover]

Dear catlover,
But Christians are to like homosexuals who behave in a hatefilled way towards Christians because of Jesus.... basically because of Jesus.

For your information my gay and lesbian friends are my friends and I appear ot be theirs, so do you hate your friends and if so how can thye be your friends if you hate them.

I dont condemn anyone, the message I tell is that Jesus Christ's testimony is that in Him no-one is condemned. You and others seem to be telling me the message I am giving is the opposite of the message I am giving.

I can see why a homosexual would be less than kind to a person who claims, homosexuals are not Christians and are going to hell.

Jesus never said anything about homosexuals.

 

[BigBadWlf]

It's a dumb question and quite irrelevant, and really no reason for him to answer it, as the will of God could not be sinful. It's unfathomable.

Your attack says that it is neither “dumb” or irrelevant. Just as the unwillingness to honestly answer the questions says that it is neither “dumb” or irrelevant

 

[BigBadWlf]

Name the names of members and give evidence where they displayed hate. As I suspected, this was futile. Keep living in your delusions, sure people who hate homosexuals exist, but it's quite rare here.

I said nothing about individual members. please don’t make claims like that, it is dishonest.

Christian groups routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is this not an act of hate?

I don't think you know what hate means, and how do you know this, it is not proven that one's sexual orientation (or lack thereof) is inborn.

The fact you ignored the question is an indication that at a minimum you think bearing false witness is morally acceptable. Yet you went on in the OP about how its wrong to do what God labeled as a sin. Last time I glanced at the ten commandments lying was a sin.

So we are back to my question, the one you avoided, “Christian groups routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is this not an act of hate?”
Please answer the question.


As for your red herring: no one has proven that bacteria and viruses cause disease (its called the germ theory…and its only a theory) but like the theory that sexual oriention is inborn it has a lot of scientific support. Rather than sidetrack this thread why don’t you start a new thread and post all the studies form the last couple decades published in peer reviewed journals showing that sexual orientation is some sort of choice, the result of how one was raised, the result of one’s relationship with either parent or nay other social or familial factor. That way we can all read these studies and discuss them.

Ex-gay ministries routinely and knowingly lie about homosexuals and homosexuality. How is this not an act of hate?

Ex-gay ministries normally aren't condemning and hating gays, they're trying to help them "change", how is that hate? Though the lying isn't what I'd call love, if you're correct.

sounds like condemnation and hatred to me...

"You know, really, when you think about it -- let me just be blunt here -- when an individual 'comes out' and proclaims their homosexuality, really, what they are doing is standing up and saying, 'I'm a sexual deviant, and I'm proud of it.' " Michael Johnston, head of Kerusso Ministries

"Satan uses homosexuals as pawns.” Anthony Falzarano, PFOX

"in areas that are most accepting of homosexuality, such as Hollywood and San Francisco and New York, there is the highest percentage of suicide, death from chemical dependency, drug addiction, alcoholism, and HIV amongst the gay community, and I am concerned about that, because I love the homosexual. Obviously, in those areas that they are receiving the greatest acceptance, there is the highest percentage of death and despair amongst the gay community." Jane Boyer, Board Member of Exodus

"lesbian love is a counterfeit, it's a lie." Jane Boyer, Board Member of Exodus

"when two women come together in this kind of relationship, you are both broken people in a lot of pain, in need to be loved and accepted, a lack of identity, a lack of self-worth." Jane Boyer, Board Member of Exodus


"Basically, homosexuality is a neurosis. It's healable, it's treatable. We are ministering to 6,000 former homosexuals in the Exodus network. Basically, homosexuality is a stunting of psychosexual growth. They are children inside, and any parents out there -- you know, when your kid is spoiled, he'll keep coming at you and keep coming at you and keep coming at you until you give him a whack on the bottom and say, 'Enough!' and then the child will stop." - Anthony Falzarano

Basically, we are seeing many people come through Exodus and walk successfully out of a homosexual disorientation....It's hard. It's the equivalent of coming off of heroin." - Anthony Falzarano

and loaded with lies as well

and it was lies i specifically asked about

Now, you are saying that it is wrong for such groups to lie…but is that lying not an act of hatred?

How is advocating discrimination against an entire minority not an act of hate?

Where is this advocated? Someone not supporting gay marriage? You're right, it is, but it's not always an act of hate,

Please explain how denying equal rights to a minority is not an act of hatred

think of legalizing adult-child marriages, would that be hate?

Red Herring. Please provide details about how children can give legal consent to marry.

Remember, it's not to make you or any homosexual suffer, but biblical condemnation.

Was segregation (which was biblically supprted BTW) not to make non-whites suffer? Or do you think it had some higher purpose?

I myself don't support homosexual marriages, but I won't protest, as the world isn't to be held to Christian standards if they refuse to accept Christ.

What about the equal rights of non-Christians?

How is comparing gays and lesbians to pedophiles, murders, thieves, liars not an act of hate?

(You have no right to talk about this, given I made this thread because of posts like yours, read your own posts, you're being hypocritical.)

So you are saying that when Christians and Christian groups lie and compare gays and lesbians to pedophiles, drug addicts, thieves etc…it IS and act of hate…but then that dumps the entire premise of your OP because obviously such things are hate based and you admit it.

How is denying that hundreds of thousands of gays and lesbian were not murdered in Nazi death camps not an act of hate?

(A lot more than gays and lesbians were murdered there, were they murdered in the name of our Lord? Did Phinehas2 order the execution, did Zaac flip the switch, did I point and laugh while they writhed to death in agony? Really.. Did you even read the OP, this is addressing members that post here.

Yet groups like NARTH, Focus on the Family, the Family Research Council Judith Resiman have all jumped on the holocaust revisionist bandwagon. So my question still stands: “How is denying that hundreds of thousands of gays and lesbian were not murdered in Nazi death camps not an act of hate?”
Please answer the question

 

[Pogue]

It's already been said, really (probably more eloquently) but when fundamentalists do condemn gay people, they can sometimes, not always, sound hateful. They sound as though they genuinely hate gay people and are motivated by this hate when they preach, not by concern for the general well-being of gays. There's also the fact that it's almost seen as the 'sin of sins'. An alcoholic or drug addict- not that I like drawing this comparison- would at least be treated with a certain level of kindess. But when many people condemn gays, it's rarely with any kind of understanding or love.
I'm not saying this is the case for every person opposed to homosexuality- it's important to point that out. But I think it's true in some cases.

 

[tulc]

As to whether the post is written in the right spirit, yes definatley as it isnt he spirit that people are objecting to, it’s the Biblical texts.

Are you saying that people are objecting to the things that are being posted not because some people post in a rude or hateful manner but because the Biblical texts are so convicting?
tulc(just checking before I try and answer)

 

[Chaplain David]

The reason most of us "fundies" do not support homosexuality is not because we hate you and enjoy your suffering, it is because God labeled it a sin(or so we believe) in the bible, simple as that. So please end this foolishness that anyone hates anyone, please. It's annoying, and it edifies nobody.

Hello Ishida,

Is this the OP? Hard finding out lately what with the glitches and gremlins moving things all over the place - NO I'm not talking about the staff
God bless

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Polycarp1

But here's my observation: Phinehas and I both are opposed to sexual sin,

That’s not quite right, that’s a deception. The evidence shows we have some different benchmarks of what sexual sin is.
Also my flesh life, is tempted by some sexual desires. The key is whether they are sin or not. My benchmark is the Biblical testimony, so to say ‘I am opposed’ isnt quite right. I refer to the benchmark of the belief not the person who holds the belief.

And while there are a few homophobes on CF (based on post contents, which is all we have to go on),

yes fair enough.

generally what you have is people with varying degrees of self-righteousness denouncing what they see as the sins of others.

But surely such as statement is what is self-righteousness.

And that's true whether you're talking about "Bible-believing Christians" (BBC) holding forth that "the Bible clearly condemns all gay sex as sin" or we of the pro-gay faction denouncing the judgmentalism of the first group.

Well this is true, this is what is happening, the Bible believing Christians do demonstrate that the Bible clearly condemns all same-sex sex and the pro-gay faction do denounce them for judgementalism.

The bottom line here to me is that we're all sinners saved by the grace of God mediated through the Atonement of Jesus Christ -- and, as such, free from the law, not to do sin, but to love.

Not if we cant decide what the sin is.

anal gang rape (Genesis 19 and Judges 19:22ff)

Then you haven’t read scripture properly or thoroughly. Based on your logic Genesis 19, says the men wanted to know the men, that’s the same word as Adam knew Eve and conceived, that wasn’t rape was it? Lot who was righteous says this was wicked yet offers his daughter. So we can see that Adam knowing Eve, a man knowing a woman is ok, and gang rape of a woman is ok compared to gang rape of men which is wicked..

sodomitic fertility rites to Moloch and other Ba'alite deities (esp. Astarte) (Leviticus

18:22 and 20:13)

Which includes as man lying with a man as with a woman. Note that whilst you propose this, the two chapters say anyone who does any of these practices will be cut off. Have you not got the same God? Leviticus 18 & 20 is addressed to the children of Israel saying God is their God and they must not do these practices that other nations do.

turning to orgiastic practices, along with malicious attitudes, in an ennui-laden search for new kicks (Romans

1:21-32)

No idea what you are referring to. Romans 1 says for example
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness
but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
If you are proposing men with men then you have exchanged the truth for a lie and are worshipping created things rather than the creator.
The same would apply to the rest as well for a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done… wickedness, evil, greed and depravity, envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice, gossiping slander God-hating insolence, arrogance, boasting.

the selling and patronizing of enslaved 'rent boy' prostitutes (I Corinthians 6:9)

very wishful thinking and with what evidence? When you read pronos and moichos in 1 Cor 6 you know that means sex outside marriage as in Matt 19 and Mark 10, aresnokoites is male bed and almost certainly the law reference as in 1 Tim 1 to the Levicticus 18 and 20 you also don’t believe.

I'm also opposed to the sin of

Sodom, as defined more specifically than Genesis does in Ezekiel 16:49-50.

But you aren’t opposed to the sin of Sodom as described in Leviticus. I believe all of it, if I wanted to disbelieve anything in particular I guess I would choose adultery and greed.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear catlover,

I can see why a homosexual would be less than kind to a person who claims, homosexuals are not Christians and are going to hell.

I can’t. What if that homosexual were a Christian who points a practicing homosexual to the warnings in the Bible which say do not be deceived, homosexual offenders shall not enter the Kingdom?
And indeed why would a Christian warn a heterosexual of this? Why would a Christian warn a fellow believer that Jesus Christ is the truth when a fellow believer already knows this?
I am thinking in terms of the Christian standpoint, you are thinking in terms of the homosexual standpoint.