Time line of Yeshua's ministry

gadar perets

Messianic Hebrew
May 11, 2016
4,252
1,042
70
NC
Visit site
✟130,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
If you've taken any foreign language, you know that any word can be translated 10 ways, and the absolute permutation of having 10x10x10x10x10x10x10 meanings to a 7-word sentence means that there is just too much risk to say we have some authority in our translation.
How does that relate to saying John 6:4 does not belong in our Bibles? Or are you suggesting that pascha could be translated Trumpets?
 
Upvote 0

gadar perets

Messianic Hebrew
May 11, 2016
4,252
1,042
70
NC
Visit site
✟130,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
And then we are back to Hebrew mindset was not involved in the translations of Hebrew to Greek. All the Greek texts are from after the apostles were dead. The Greek texts do not come from Israel but from Turkey and beyond.
How does this relate to our discussion? Try and be more precise so we don't have to go back and forth clarifying what we mean. Is this post related to John 6:4 or Daniel 9 or what?
 
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,925
8,040
✟575,802.44
Faith
Messianic
How does that relate to saying John 6:4 does not belong in our Bibles? Or are you suggesting that pascha could be translated Trumpets?
The Gospel narratives clearly show us that Yeshua did not go up to Jerusalem for the "passover”. Instead of keeping a Feast in Jerusalem, Yeshua assembled thousands of Israelites on a hillside in the Galilee and fed them with leavened barley loaves (John 6:9), which would have been a blatant violation of Torah if this were truly the time of Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Two days later, Yeshua taught another large assembly in the Capernaum synagogue who also did not go up to “passover” in Jerusalem. Instead of delivering a message relevant to Passover on that Sabbath, he taught them about the prophetic significance of the Day of Trumpets (John 6:28-59). By the next chapter, Yeshua has began his journey to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles, which occurs exactly six months before or after Passover (John 7:2-10). It doesn't take that long [six months] to get to Jerusalem even with walking at a slow pace.

My question would be, did a 3 1/2 year believer translator think to help with "notes" insert "pasha" and before you know it is hardlined into texts as gospel? As to the surrounding context, this is evidence that indicates Passover is not a perfect fit for the Jewish feast mentioned in John 6:4.
 
Upvote 0

gadar perets

Messianic Hebrew
May 11, 2016
4,252
1,042
70
NC
Visit site
✟130,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The Gospel narratives clearly show us that Yeshua did not go up to Jerusalem for the "passover”. Instead of keeping a Feast in Jerusalem, Yeshua assembled thousands of Israelites on a hillside in the Galilee and fed them with leavened barley loaves (John 6:9), which would have been a blatant violation of Torah if this were truly the time of Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Two days later, Yeshua taught another large assembly in the Capernaum synagogue who also did not go up to “passover” in Jerusalem. Instead of delivering a message relevant to Passover on that Sabbath, he taught them about the prophetic significance of the Day of Trumpets (John 6:28-59). By the next chapter, Yeshua has began his journey to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles, which occurs exactly six months before or after Passover (John 7:2-10). It doesn't take that long [six months] to get to Jerusalem even with walking at a slow pace.
John 6:4 says Passover was "near". How near we are not told. Was it days or weeks away? It seems to me he had time enough to finish in Capernaum and return for the feast. What he taught in John 6:28-59 concerning him being the (unleavened) bread from heaven is far more relevant to Passover/Unleavened Bread than Trumpets. As for the time in between that and Sukkot, we are told John did not write about many things Yeshua did.

My question would be, did a 3 1/2 year believer translator think to help with "notes" insert "pasha" and before you know it is hardlined into texts as gospel?
If this was true, then we would have texts with the "notes" in the margin. If we don't have such texts, we cannot assume that was the case and delete what was written.
 
Upvote 0

gadar perets

Messianic Hebrew
May 11, 2016
4,252
1,042
70
NC
Visit site
✟130,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
John 6:4 has its parallel in Mark 6:39 and in the multiplication of loaves as told in Luke 9:12. No verification of it being near the feast of the Jews or Passover specific.
That is irrelevant seeing how neither Mark nor Luke ever mention any specific feasts except Passover/Unleavened when Yeshua died.
 
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,925
8,040
✟575,802.44
Faith
Messianic
That is irrelevant seeing how neither Mark nor Luke ever mention any specific feasts except Passover/Unleavened when Yeshua died.
Gives context to time frame of John 6:4.

Example... after feeding the multitude, Luke goes on to say...

And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?

They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.

He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;

Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.


For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.


But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
In a short period of time [eight days], the "tabernacle with Moses and Elias" happened.
And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
Here Peter is thinking in relationship to the Feast of Tabernacles.
While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

And it came to pass, that on the next day, when they were come down from the hill, much people met him.

And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child.

And, lo, a spirit taketh him, and he suddenly crieth out; and it teareth him that he foameth again, and bruising him hardly departeth from him.

And I besought thy disciples to cast him out; and they could not.

And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.

And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father.

And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples,

Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.

But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.
Now Yeshua starts preparing the minds of the disciples regarding His death.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,925
8,040
✟575,802.44
Faith
Messianic
That is irrelevant seeing how neither Mark nor Luke ever mention any specific feasts except Passover/Unleavened when Yeshua died.
Luke does go on from the feeding of the multitude to the transfiguration [Peter thinks Sukkot] and Yeshua then goes on to talk about His death. Sequence fits better with Tabernacle - Passover.
 
Upvote 0

gadar perets

Messianic Hebrew
May 11, 2016
4,252
1,042
70
NC
Visit site
✟130,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Luke does go on from the feeding of the multitude to the transfiguration [Peter thinks Sukkot] and Yeshua then goes on to talk about His death. Sequence fits better with Tabernacle - Passover.
The mere mention of building three tabernacles in a vision does not mean the Feast of Tabernacles was upon them. Neither does the mention of a trumpet in Matthew 6:2 mean it was Yom Teruah or the mention of fasting in Matthew 6:16 mean it was Yom Kippurim.
 
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,925
8,040
✟575,802.44
Faith
Messianic
The mere mention of building three tabernacles in a vision does not mean the Feast of Tabernacles was upon them. Neither does the mention of a trumpet in Matthew 6:2 mean it was Yom Teruah or the mention of fasting in Matthew 6:16 mean it was Yom Kippurim.
If you were Peter witnessing the transfiguration, what connection would you make if it was Passover time?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

gadar perets

Messianic Hebrew
May 11, 2016
4,252
1,042
70
NC
Visit site
✟130,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
If you were Peter witnessing the transfiguration, what connection would you make if it was Passover time?
Peter was seeing a vision for a very brief time before he asked to make tabernacles. He knew nothing about the purpose of the vision at that point. All he saw was Yeshua whose "face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light." Then he saw Moses and Eliyah. It could very well be that his first thought was to shade them from the bright light. Tabernacles were made throughout the year for shelter from the elements, especially the sun's heat.
 
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,925
8,040
✟575,802.44
Faith
Messianic
Peter was seeing a vision for a very brief time before he asked to make tabernacles. He knew nothing about the purpose of the vision at that point. All he saw was Yeshua whose "face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light." Then he saw Moses and Eliyah. It could very well be that his first thought was to shade them from the bright light. Tabernacles were made throughout the year for shelter from the elements, especially the sun's heat.
Could be, after all he was just a dumb fisherman who didn't understand what was happening and the first thing out of his mouth was the only thing he could think of. Strange that it was tabernacles, being a Jew and all.
 
Upvote 0

gadar perets

Messianic Hebrew
May 11, 2016
4,252
1,042
70
NC
Visit site
✟130,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Could be, after all he was just a dumb fisherman who didn't understand what was happening and the first thing out of his mouth was the only thing he could think of. Strange that it was tabernacles, being a Jew and all.
If you are going to resort to mocking, we might as well end this discussion.
 
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,925
8,040
✟575,802.44
Faith
Messianic
Peter had heard Yeshua, about a week earlier, say that

Matt 16:28 ...some who were standing there would not taste death before they saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. So when Peter saw Yeshua in all His glory, he might have put the two together and come up with it was the start of the promised kingdom. The Feast of Tabernacle is the prophetic start of the promised kingdom. It would make sense to Peter to make the shelters for the great celebration.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,925
8,040
✟575,802.44
Faith
Messianic
If you are going to resort to mocking, we might as well end this discussion.
Quit presenting Peter as misguided in thinking Tabernacles in the wrong season. I don't think Peter is stupid nor misguided in his thinking. I think there is a good reason for him to think of the Sukkot. 'about eight days' of Luke could be another clue lending itself to the Feast of Tabernacles and the Eighth day.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,925
8,040
✟575,802.44
Faith
Messianic
One thing is for sure... in the next chapter it was definitely feast of Tabernacles that Yeshua makes the announcement that

John 7:37 Jesus stood and cried saying, if any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink, He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

John 7,8.9 are all Feast of Tabernacle themed. John 10 is Feast of Dedication.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

gadar perets

Messianic Hebrew
May 11, 2016
4,252
1,042
70
NC
Visit site
✟130,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
One thing is for sure... in the next chapter it was definitely feast of Tabernacles that Yeshua makes the announcement that

John 7:37 Jesus stood and cried saying, if any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink, He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

John 7,8.9 are all Feast of Tabernacle themed. John 10 is Feast of Dedication.
You are so concerned about the gap in time from Passover in John 6:4 to Sukkot in John 7:2 that you are willing to declare John 6:4 a forgery without textual evidence to do so. What about the gap in time from the Feast of Dedication in John 10 to Passover in John 12:1? Three-four months worth of activity and all we have to show for it is about a weeks worth of time in John 11. What about the gap in time between John 1:14 and John 1:29 (about 30 years?)?

Here is the bottom line; you can come up with all sorts of fanciful scenarios to discard John 6:4, but if you have no viable textual evidence to show it to be a forgery or altered, you have nothing. There is no reason to believe such a gap in time is not feasible.
 
Upvote 0

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Here is the bottom line; you can come up with all sorts of fanciful scenarios to discard John 6:4, but if you have no viable textual evidence to show it to be a forgery or altered, you have nothing. There is no reason to believe such a gap in time is not feasible.

Yes, there is, and it is called reason. And the scriptures must be
not only true, not only in accord with all other scripture, but it must
be reasonable.

Skim through here, http://www.parallelgospels.net/ and see how
much blank space there is between the gospels when they have to
stretch them to cover 3.5 years. When you cut out the added feasts,
all of the blank pages pretty much go away.

Another possibility of John 6:4 that doesn't make it the wrong feast.

"Regarding this, He kept the Passover mentions of John 2:13 and 13:1, but with the one mentioned in John 6, notice He DID NOT keep it. This is because it was the passover of the second month. He went out and fed the folks instead."
http://home.earthlink.net/~bobseller1/id100.html

The second Passover in the second month for those unclean or too
far away to celebrate the first.
 
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,925
8,040
✟575,802.44
Faith
Messianic
Yes, there is, and it is called reason. And the scriptures must be
not only true, not only in accord with all other scripture, but it must
be reasonable.

Skim through here, http://www.parallelgospels.net/ and see how
much blank space there is between the gospels when they have to
stretch them to cover 3.5 years. When you cut out the added feasts,
all of the blank pages pretty much go away.

Another possibility of John 6:4 that doesn't make it the wrong feast.

"Regarding this, He kept the Passover mentions of John 2:13 and 13:1, but with the one mentioned in John 6, notice He DID NOT keep it. This is because it was the passover of the second month. He went out and fed the folks instead."
http://home.earthlink.net/~bobseller1/id100.html

The second Passover in the second month for those unclean or too
far away to celebrate the first.
Agreed. Yeshua was not disobedient to the law of assembly in Jerusalem for one of the three mandatory feasts.

Second month Passover is a good possibility, thereby Yeshua is still complying with the law of three mandatory feast attendance and the Bible still has its scriptural integrity.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

gadar perets

Messianic Hebrew
May 11, 2016
4,252
1,042
70
NC
Visit site
✟130,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Yes, there is, and it is called reason. And the scriptures must be
not only true, not only in accord with all other scripture, but it must
be reasonable.

Skim through here, http://www.parallelgospels.net/ and see how
much blank space there is between the gospels when they have to
stretch them to cover 3.5 years. When you cut out the added feasts,
all of the blank pages pretty much go away.

Another possibility of John 6:4 that doesn't make it the wrong feast.

"Regarding this, He kept the Passover mentions of John 2:13 and 13:1, but with the one mentioned in John 6, notice He DID NOT keep it. This is because it was the passover of the second month. He went out and fed the folks instead."
http://home.earthlink.net/~bobseller1/id100.html

The second Passover in the second month for those unclean or too
far away to celebrate the first.
You are certainly not going to convince me of your view when you present conflicting data. The "Duration" article you linked to opens by saying, "The Duration of Christ's ministry was 434 days, just like Daniel says." Yet, in post #53 you gave me a link to http://www.creationtoeternity.com/page12.html which shows the ministry being "490 days". In the "Duration" article, he says John 6:4 refers to the second Passover, but in the other article it says, “And the Passover, the feast of the Jews was nigh. Here again the translators got it wrong! This is not His third Passover but the first of the special days leading up to the Feast of Tabernacles which was due in 2 weeks time. This is referring to the Blowing of Trumpets on the 1st day of the 7th Hebrew month ..."

The fact is that BOTH articles are wrong because Daniel's prophecy concerns years, not days.

As for John 6:4 referring to the second month Passover, it is hardly likely that John would use a time designated for a few individuals who were unable to keep the first Passover as a time marker in his Gospel written for all the world to read, especially without mentioning it was the second Passover.

As for the "blank pages", they are blank because John's Gospel is coming from a different perspective than the other three. He is writing about different events that the other three did not include for the most part. Notice the lack of any parallels from John 5:45 - John 6:4. From page 53-95 in the Parallel Gospels link, there is nothing under John. Why? Because John did not include those accounts in his Gospel. He is writing from a different perspective.
 
Upvote 0