Time For This Challenge Again

[HitchSlap]

What about this definition do you think scares you so much?

 

[Ancient of Days]

Your assuming it scares me. It doesn't in the slightest. People are free to believe whatever they want. Most Christians were non believers before they got saved. We understand you more than I think you give us credit for.

 

[HitchSlap]

Your assuming it scares me. It doesn't in the slightest. People are free to believe whatever they want. Most Christians were non believers before they got saved. We understand you more than I think you give us credit for.

You come across scared and threatened, IMO. Your constant projection of what you think atheism is tells me you’re uninterested in what atheists really might think. It’s obvious you’re trying to convince yourself that you’re right. There’s no shame in honestly seeking to understand a different opinion.

 

[AnotherAtheist]

Your assuming it scares me. It doesn't in the slightest. People are free to believe whatever they want. Most Christians were non believers before they got saved. We understand you more than I think you give us credit for.

Do you have objective verifiable evidence for that claim?

I would expect that most Christians were indoctrinated from birth by their parents, and were never 'non believers' at a time when they were capable of advanced reason.

 

[AV1611VET]

Wow... That passage doesn't fit at all in this discussion. It's a complete non sequitur.

It's my favorite question for those who claim they were once a Christian and are no longer.

It shows they were never saved in the first place.

 

[DogmaHunter]

The following link may not address the "700nm range", but might be informative.
"Creation or evolution?" is not much of a challenge for the one that know God and His written Word. Theistic evolution is even out of the question.
"In the beginning God created" are the very first words of the Bible.

And why should we care what the bible, or any other book, says?

 

[AnotherAtheist]

And why should we care what the bible, or any other book, says?

Because if you don't, then Creationists have nothing at all and our debate grinds to a halt.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Not so. I look at organisms and conclude that they were purposefully created, not randomly assembled by some mystical process over millions of years.

And if you look more closely, you'll notice that your beliefs do not hold up.
You're some 160 years behind.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Isn't the scientist that rules out the existence of God and the possibility of God being the Creator of all things... working in a form of a vacuum?

No scientist does that.

Instead, scientists don't rule god "in", for the simple fact that god shows up nowhere.

Things without detectable manifestation, impact or influence in natural phenomena are not included as any kind of a factor.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Why? GIGO. Waste of my time. Your statement of "real scientists" etc is a statement of utter ignorance, unteachability, bias, and living in the vacuum you yourself want to put on others. I say that matter of factly, but not unkindly. I don't want to debate you, and you don't want to have an "open" discussion, by how you have hindered yourself by what you choose to accept.

To look towards actual scientists to learn about their field of expertise, is not a "hinderance". It is common sense.

You wouldn't go to your garagist to have him diagnose your lumb on your chest, so why would you go to a non-scientist to learn about science?

I'ld say the opposite of your statement is true: it is a hinderance when you are not able to properly evaluate the credibility of sources.

When a non-biologist arrogantly tells me that all actual biologists are wrong about biology, I tend to shrug my shoulders and walk away.

Reminds me of the man that said "We can only discuss science and evolution, but with no use of Scripture."

In context of biology, he would be correct. Why would you use any kind of ancient text when it comes to a topic of 21st century science?

He was given the reply "That is like asking me to fence (have a sword fight) with You, but I can't use my sword. I won't do it."

The problem is that in this analogy, scripture is not a sword.
Biology is a scientific subject, so you use scientific data and scientific sources to make your point - if you even have one.

Scripture is not such a source and it literally has no relevancy in biology. Or indeed any other scientific subject.

As far as I am concerned, "our" discussion is over.

Run Forrest, run!

 

[DogmaHunter]

The odds favor creation.

What odds?

 

[DogmaHunter]

The more complexity science finds the less likely things evolved

Complexity is not an indicator of design.
I can show you simple things that are designed and I can show you complex things that aren't.

, and the more likely special creation occurred

The only thing that would make it more likely, is actual positive evidence in support of it.
Got any?

Evolution, as presented to the general public, is woefully lacking in revealing just how complex things really are, and the astronomical odds against it ever happening.

Evolution actually explains how complexity arises.

 

[DogmaHunter]

All I ask for is the mathematical odds of evolution ever happening.

That's easy...
Either a thing is subject to an evolutionary process or it is not.
So the probability is either 0 or 1 in 1.

The process of evolution is inevitable if following criteria are met:
- replication with modification
- competition (= fitness test)
- reproduce and repeat

"Life" meets those criteria.
So the probability that life is subject to an evolutionary process, is 1 in 1.

That shouldn't be too difficult

Indeed it isn't.
So I can only wonder why you seem to have problems with understanding it.

Haven't many scientists, among them Carl Sagan, stated that "against all odds, evolution did happen." I just want to know what those odds were.

Citation? Because chances are rather huge here, that when Sagan said such a thing, he didn't mean what you are pretending here.

If those odds go past the realm of possibility, then there you have it.

FYI: the only odds that go "past" the realm of possibility, is a chance of 0.
A probability of 0 is the only one that makes something truelly impossible.

 

[DogmaHunter]

So if the Atheist truly believes God doesn't exist

I don't actually know an atheist who makes such a claim.

why do a lot of them spend so much time trying to prove he doesn't exist?

I'm not aware of any atheists actively trying to prove a god does not exist.
All atheists I know of seem to be fully aware of how illogical and absurd it is to try and prove that a certain thing does NOT exist.

Atheists, in my experience, also tend to understand the concept of the burden of proof and how it rests with the one who makes the positive claim. In this case, that would be "a god exists".

Proving something does NOT exist, is basically a logical impossibility.
And especially so, when it even consists entities that are defined as being unfalsifiable, undetectable, unknowable, etc.

If you truly believe something doesn't exist it would only be logical to not waste a moment of time trying to disprove it, since it does not exist.

You are welcome to point out which atheist is
1. making the claim that god does NOT exist
2. trying to prove that

 

[DogmaHunter]

My logic is sound the actions of the atheist are illogical at best.

"stopping the teaching of wrong ideas to children."

Which one? To love one another?
Love your neighbor as you love yourself?
Love your enemies?
Take care of the poor?
Take care of the widows and orphans? Yeah, that's some real damaging stuff...

Here are a few others:
- homosexuals are sinners and an abomination
- atheists are evil psychopaths
- witches must die (been to christian africa recently, like nigeria, where they are killing "witches" as the bible instructs them to?)
- there's a magical man in the sky watching your every move and be carefull not to go off track or you'll be send to the eternal torture chambers!
- contraceptives are from the devil (the number 1 cause of widespread AIDS in africa, by the way)
- science is satanic and the bible is literally true
- ...

Yes, it's actually real damaging stuff....

 

[DogmaHunter]

"Where do they do this?" Really? Dude, your on a Christian website. The vast majority of atheists here spend countless hours trying to prove God doesn't exist.

Really?
Can you link me to ONE post where an atheist is trying to prove God doesn't exist?

My statement still stands.

Does it, really. I guess we'll find out, once you find me such a post....
Reading your above statement of how "the majority of atheists spends countless hours" doing exactly that, you should have no problem at all digging up a few examples.

So if the Atheist truly believes God doesn't exist why do a lot of them spend so much time trying to prove he doesn't exist?

Hold on, step back a little. First, support your claims that atheists are actually doing this. Then we'll get to the "why" they are supposedly doing this.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Questions that can be dismissed easily, are not difficult questions.

Real life example (my life).

Me: "Doctor, I don't think my kidneys are working properly."
Doctor: "Your creatinine levels are fine."

Thus 'dismissing' my question (not even acknowledging it really) with the wave of a hand (I get that a lot from doctors).

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Unfortunately for you, most of us here understand ToE, and aren’t as impressed with your incredulity as you are.

You may know how it works, but can you make it work? You've had 150 years to demonstrate it in the lab.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Really?
Can you link me to ONE post where an atheist is trying to prove God doesn't exist?



Does it, really. I guess we'll find out, once you find me such a post....
Reading your above statement of how "the majority of atheists spends countless hours" doing exactly that, you should have no problem at all digging up a few examples.



Hold on, step back a little. First, support your claims that atheists are actually doing this. Then we'll get to the "why" they are supposedly doing this.

You can't be serious. Why else are you guys here?

 

[HitchSlap]

You may know how it works, but can you make it work? You've had 150 years to demonstrate it in the lab.

Evolution doesn't happen in labs.